Is the Ten Commandment Abolished?

[stovebolts]

What Bible version are you quoting from? Mine has:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John. 3:17 NIV)
​

Sorry, I am using the Net Bible.

3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Do you disagree that Christ did not come to condemn us, but rather, he came to save us? If you look at the narrative in Exodus, the purpose of the Law was to bring life, yet when it came, instead of bring life, it brought condemnation.

Isreal was to be a light to the world because of God's law which it had recieved on Sinai. Jesus is the true Light to the world. Do you see the parallel?

 

[Theofilus]

Sorry, I am using the Net Bible.

3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

The reason I asked was that, the way you had it earlier, it looked like you were saying that John 3:17 was about the law being written on our heart.

Do you disagree that Christ did not come to condemn us, but rather, he came to save us? If you look at the narrative in Exodus, the purpose of the Law was to bring life, yet when it came, instead of bring life, it brought condemnation.

Isreal was to be a light to the world because of God's law which it had recieved on Sinai. Jesus is the true Light to the world. Do you see the parallel?

Jesus came "that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). The law "is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days" (Deu. 32:47) What I fail to see is why people think there's a conflict.

 

[stovebolts]

1. The New Testament is built on top of the Old Testament. Trying to understand the New Testament without first understandint the Old, is like trying to learn long division without first learning how to count.

2. You can't teach what you don't know. If you're going to try to teach others, you really should learn things yourself first.

Agreed. Much of what Jesus states, especially in Mt. 5 is the correct intreptation of YHVH's Law which is now written within us.

 

[jasoncran]

when we follow christ he will give us the ability and desire to follow the ot law. we arent bound under the curse. but let me say this.
would god tell you to lie?steal,kill , adulterate?
how can we test the spirits to see if they are from the lord? by checking the word, ot and nt.
drew is most correct.
Isnt the law the very word of God in a nut shell, and Jesus is also the word. both must be the same and the lord lives it in us, if we let him.

 

[stovebolts]

Absolutly Theopolis.

My observation has been that the conflict comes when people don't understand that God's law now lives in us and they somehow believe that the law is a bad thing.

Another conflict arises when people don't understand justification, or when people try to justify themselves by their works in accordance with the law. I've actually met a dying man who didn't feel that he had done enough to go to heaven, and I consider him a man of God, who loved the lord.

As Christians, I believe that we should strive to obey God's commandments, but not to earn our salvation, but so we can live lives worthy of Christ, and by doing so, I think we come a bit closer to living the way God originally intended us to live.

But then, there will always be those that look at the word work with one earning salvation, so it's always going to be taboo if you know what I mean.

 

[Theofilus]

As Christians, I believe that we should strive to obey God's commandments, but not to earn our salvation, but so we can live lives worthy of Christ, and by doing so, I think we come a bit closer to living the way God originally intended us to live.

My thoughts exactly! Here's an analogy I like to use:

I am a citizen of Iceland for one, and only one reason - I was born in Iceland to Icelandic parents. I try to obey the laws here, but that's not what makes me a citizen. If I break the laws, it will not take away my citizenship. Obeying the law is not what makes me a citizen, it's something I do because I am a citizen and resident.

I am a citizen of God's Kingdom for one, and only one reason - I was born (again) into the Kingdom of God. I try to obey God's laws, but that's not what saves me. If I break the laws, it will not take away my salvation. Keeping the Old Testament laws is not what saves me, it's something I do because I'm already saved.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,

Paul states clearly in Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

What I would like to add, is that very little content of God's law has been modified between the two covenants and certainly the intent of God's law has not changed. I believe the difference between the two are mainly where God placed His law. God's law is no longer written on tablets of stone, no, it is now written on hearts of flesh.

While we are no longer under the law written on stone, the law, as Paul put it is till, "Holy, righteous, and good."

This is what I love about the book of Hebrews. It takes something that is good, and with Jesus, it's just plain better.

Ya....it's better. And WAY simpler too. Cos now we dont even have to read any written law. We can just love everyone and God and were covered. Thats the genius of Jesus. That was the point of the cross.

The thing that irks me is these people that say we have to study the Old Testament to even understand what Jesus is all about. Thats like saying we need to know all the written laws in order to understand love>>>>???

They are around on every single forum I go too.

I personally believe that is the biggest LEAVEN in the Church today and that our job as Christians at this moment in history is to unite in one mind in Christ and purge that leaven in no uncertain terms.

There is a plan in place set by the Pharisees. And that is to seduce us back to the written laws. The people on this thread who help that are knowingly or unknowingly furthering that plan.

Whats next after were seduced back to written law? After we trust the Judaizers?>>>>

NOAHIDE LAWS

GET CLUED UP ON THESE LAWS CHRISTIANS.

The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws or Noachide Code, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind.[1] According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven.[2] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

Look pretty Biblical eh Christians. No harm there?

Ya....except Law number one as documented by the Talmudic Rabbinical leadership in their own words FORBIDS THE WORSHIP OF CHRIST. Do your own homework people. If you still cant see it then ask me again and I'll document it for you.

PUNISHMENT? BEHEADING.

Bush snr signed these puppy's into American law decades ago. All thats left is the enforcement of the mark.

Dont bend an INCH to Old Law fanboys. It's the Leaven!

 

[Drew]

You are referring to Colossians 2:14.

For the moment, I do not have the time to engage Colossians 2:14. But Ephesians 2 is clear - the written code of the Law of Moses is no longer in force.

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

First, let us address the matter of identifying the two groups described in this passage. I think that the two peoples that are "divided" here are the Jews and the Gentiles. One group is described as "Gentiles in the flesh", and "uncircumcision". Clearly this is the Gentiles. Paul contrasts this group with another group - the "circumcision in the flesh" people. Clearly, this second group is the Jews. He goes on to say that the first group - the Gentiles - are "excluded from Israel and foreigners to the covenants". This is a clear reference to the Jew-Gentile distinction. It is the Jew - the one circumcised in the flesh - who is under the covenant promises. So I can not see ambiguity here - Paul is describing a Jew-Gentile distinction.

Consider verse 12. Why was the Gentile excluded from citizenship in Israel? I suggest that the reason is the Law of Moses - the Law of Moses was effectively a national charter for the Jews, it is Torah, not distortions to it, that marks out "citizenship in Israel". It is the abolition of the Law of Moses that supports a sensible interpretation of the material from 14 on to 18, material which is all about the newly achieved unity of Jew and Gentile. How would one naturally bring Jew and Gentile together? Obviously by getting rid of the complex set of practices, ceremonies, and rituals which are for Jew and Jew only. The Law of Moses, being for Jews only, effectively excluded the Gentile from membership in God's true family (Israel). After all, it is the Law of Moses that marked the Jew out from her pagan neighbour.

 

[stovebolts]

Great analogy Theopolis


Strangelove,

Love the Lord with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. Jesus quotes part of what is known as the Shema, which is prayed by devout Jews twice a day (dervied from Deut 6:7). The prayer itself comes from what is known as the written Torah, Deuteronmoy 6:5.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus again quotes the written Torah found in Leviticus 19:18 and 19:34

Now we're talking theology, or rather the correct interpretation of written Torah. After all, the goal of Torah is to live out Torah. For the Jew, and Jesus was a Jew, how one lived was very important.

Jesus states; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. (Mt 5:17) Jesus will now give a correct interpretation of Torah and how Torah is to be lived out.

Again, Jesus says,“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ Mt. 5:43
Who said this? Obviously it was a common interpretation of Lev 19:18 & 34. Who said this? It was the school of Shemmi. As it turns out, Jesus sides with the School of Hillel when he says, But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, Mt 5:44

The thing that irks me is these people that say we have to study the Old Testament to even understand what Jesus is all about. Thats like saying we need to know all the written laws in order to understand love

I'm not saying we have to study the Old Testament. But I will say that when one studies the Old Testament, the New Testament is less likely to be taken out of context.

But in the words of Paul, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Or again, in 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture.... Considering the New Testament had not yet been fully written, let alone been considered Canon when Paul wrote these words, it is apparent that Paul is speaking about the Old Testament.



As far as the Noahide laws, Yeah, I've seen them before. But when it comes to idolatry... What are we going to apply to Exodus 20:5-7? Did not Eve commit idolatry when she partook of the forbidden fruit by creating God in her image? Isn't this the same thing the Jews did when they had Jesus crucified?... So then, what is it to me if a Jew says that a Christian is commiting idolatry? Because they say it, does it make it true? If so, why and if not so, why. And what do you base your evaluation on?

 

[stovebolts]

The Law of Moses, being for Jews only, effectively excluded the Gentile from membership in God's true family (Israel). After all, it is the Law of Moses that marked the Jew out from her pagan neighbour.

Drew,
You've hit on a very good point and it reminded me of these passages.

John 4:22 You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. 4:23 But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers.

And this one from Matthew,
27:51 Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom.

Of course, this curtain was the curtain for the Holy of Holies where God's name dwelt. A sacred place where once a year (Yom Kippur) the High Priest would enter. Perhaps this is symbolic that God's name was set free, or perhaps it was symbolic that the gentiles could now enter in.

 

[Strangelove]

As far as the Noahide laws, Yeah, I've seen them before. But when it comes to idolatry... What are we going to apply to Exodus 20:5-7? Did not Eve commit idolatry when she partook of the forbidden fruit by creating God in her image? Isn't this the same thing the Jews did when they had Jesus crucified?... So then, what is it to me if a Jew says that a Christian is commiting idolatry? Because they say it, does it make it true? If so, why and if not so, why. And what do you base your evaluation on?

Stove....with all due respect sir. Its for the court (Noahide Law #7) to decide. They will ask you if you worship Jesus. If you say yes......then your head is gonna be seperated from your body via a guillotine. It's that simple.

Alternatively they can go off the testemony of s single witness.


Have you done any research into the Noahides or have you literally just seen them around?

 

[walter]

I am not sure what your specific argument is here. If the law really is written on the heart, as Paul affirms, and if, as Paul also affirms:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

....then I really do think we need to accept that the written code is no longer the authoritative source for our actions. It is instead the Holy Spirit, living in each believer. Why do we need a written code if we have the Spirit?

Again, I am not "dissing" the 10 commandments - they come from God. But the story is what it is - the covenant was brought to its fulfillment on the cross and the Law of Moses is no longer needed now that God has initiated His new creation.

I'm not arguing at all. Just stating a fact. It's like our family history. We would be wise to understand how all of this came about. I never said we are to follow and observe the law of the old testament. Jesus fulfilled the law. The OT law fulfilled its purpose. Its time is over and we have the new manifestation of God's law, in our hearts.

 

[stovebolts]

Stove....with all due respect sir. Its for the court (Noahide Law #7) to decide. They will ask you if you worship Jesus. If you say yes......then your head is gonna be seperated from your body via a guillotine. It's that simple.

Alternatively they can go off the testemony of s single witness.


Have you done any research into the Noahides or have you literally just seen them around?

Because they say it, does it make it true? If so, why and if not so, why. And what do you base your evaluation on?

 

[Strangelove]

Because they say it, does it make it true? If so, why and if not so, why. And what do you base your evaluation on?

Not sure what your asking me but....

If you are dragged into a Noahide court and they ask you if you worship Christ. What will you say?

 

[stovebolts]

My friend,
Do you not know what I am asking because you do not know the scriptures?

Go now and study both the oral and written Torah so that if you were to be drug into the courts, you could firmly state that Jesus is the Christ. Who knows, perhaps you would experience something similar to what Peter experienced in Acts 2:38

 

[Theofilus]

What are these "Noahide courts" you keep talking about? It says to establish courts, but it doesn't say what those courts should be like or that everyone has to submit to the same courts. The court systems we have fulfill this requirement. America doesn't use beheading for executions and no other western nation has the death penalty at all. You're not making sense. Have you really thought this through logically, or are you just spewing out accusations against the Jews every chance you get because you bear a grudge against them.

 

[jasoncran]

What are these "Noahide courts" you keep talking about? It says to establish courts, but it doesn't say what those courts should be like or that everyone has to submit to the same courts. The court systems we have fulfill this requirement. America doesn't use beheading for executions and no other western nation has the death penalty at all. You're not making sense. Have you really thought this through logically, or are you just spewing out accusations against the Jews every chance you get because you bear a grudge against them.

i do wonder that as well. his reference to the noahide conspiracy is lacking to what he implies.

the ot will support the idea of the messiah. jesus used it when he was resurected and walking with peter and one other, he had to use the ot as that was all they knew.

 

[Strangelove]

My friend,
Do you not know what I am asking because you do not know the scriptures?

Go now and study both the oral and written Torah so that if you were to be drug into the courts, you could firmly state that Jesus is the Christ. Who knows, perhaps you would experience something similar to what Peter experienced in Acts 2:38

What are these "Noahide courts" you keep talking about? It says to establish courts, but it doesn't say what those courts should be like or that everyone has to submit to the same courts. The court systems we have fulfill this requirement. America doesn't use beheading for executions and no other western nation has the death penalty at all. You're not making sense. Have you really thought this through logically, or are you just spewing out accusations against the Jews every chance you get because you bear a grudge against them.

Can I ask you guys. When you look at prophetic events happening in the real world, do you see a move of the nations of the Earth into whats known as a One World Government? Do you see the erosion of our basic rights as citizens occurring today.....in reality?

Just interested.

Oh and Stove::: "Go now and study both the oral and written Torah"

Oral Torah? Are you referring to the Talmud?

 

[Theofilus]

Can I ask you guys. When you look at prophetic events happening in the real world, do you see a move of the nations of the Earth into whats known as a One World Government? Do you see the erosion of our basic rights as citizens occurring today.....in reality?

Just interested.

You're really good at avoiding questions, aren't you? You should be a politician. Answer my question, and then I'll answer yours.

What are these "Noahide courts" you keep talking about? It says to establish courts, but it doesn't say what those courts should be like or that everyone has to submit to the same courts. The court systems we have fulfill this requirement. America doesn't use beheading for executions and no other western nation has the death penalty at all. You're not making sense. Have you really thought this through logically, or are you just spewing out accusations against the Jews every chance you get because you bear a grudge against them.

 

[Strangelove]

What are these "Noahide courts" you keep talking about? It says to establish courts, but it doesn't say what those courts should be like or that everyone has to submit to the same courts. The court systems we have fulfill this requirement. America doesn't use beheading for executions and no other western nation has the death penalty at all. You're not making sense. Have you really thought this through logically, or are you just spewing out accusations against the Jews every chance you get because you bear a grudge against them.

What are they? They are the killing machine of the One World Government. The beast in Revelation. They will enforce the mark (denial of Christ). And if you are faithful to the Lord...it's bye bye head.....Hello Kingdom. Lubbly Jubbly.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was
given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had
not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
reigned with Christ a thousand years.