is there a lake of fire ?

[Butch5]

Rev. 22:15 first comes to mind.

Yep, Scripture says that Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years to test the people.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you aware that there will be other people still on earth when Christ returns? There will be other nations during the kingdom. So, yes Gehenna can be on the new earth.

You say Gehenna is the end time lake of fire and will always be here on earth. I've already explained Gehenna is not the end time lake of fire. According to Rev Chapter 21 how is this possible that as you put it Gehenna being the lake of fire will still exist here on earth after God makes everything new again. When Christ returns he cast the beast, false prophet and Satan into the lake of fire and then those who are still alive that have rejected Christ will be gathered with those from the grave as being part of the second resurrection that has no power as they stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and also cast into the lake of fire, but scripture does not tell of its location, but that it is in outer darkness. Rev Chapters 19-2, Matthew 8:5-12; 22:1-14; 25:14-30

 

[for_his_glory]

The main problem here is that you are using one definition of "hell" to argue that the Lake of Fire cannot be hell. Most translations translate three different words as "hell," gehenna being one of them and hades being another. It's fine if you want to use hades as the sole definition of hell proper but that in no way means that gehenna is not the Lake of Fire. But I could just as well legitimately argue that hell proper is actually gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and hades should just be translated as "hades" (as the ESV does) or "grave".

The scriptures I gave makes it very clear no matter how others think it to be so I will believe what God has already spoken.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus warned many times of the fires of gehenna, sometimes with direct reference to the final destination of the wicked (Matt 18:9; Mark 9:43,45). He also spoke of gehenna in terms of fire (Matt 5:22; Mark 9:43), as it was a place where refuse and criminals were burned.

Putting two and two together--gehenna as the final place of the wicked and being a place of fire--we can conclude that it most likely is the Lake of Fire.

But you are not sure so you are only guessing without positive proof.

 

[for_his_glory]

The main problem here is that you are using one definition of "hell" to argue that the Lake of Fire cannot be hell. Most translations translate three different words as "hell," gehenna being one of them and hades being another. It's fine if you want to use hades as the sole definition of hell proper but that in no way means that gehenna is not the Lake of Fire. But I could just as well legitimately argue that hell proper is actually gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and hades should just be translated as "hades" (as the ESV does) or "grave".

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to me in this verse that death and hell are not the lake of fire, but are thrown into it and all those who have rejected Christ at His coming are also thrown into it.

 

[Free]

But you are not sure so you are only guessing without positive proof.

It is much more than a guess. I gave good reasons, based the scriptures I quoted, for why it is most likely the case.

 

[Free]

The scriptures I gave makes it very clear no matter how others think it to be so I will believe what God has already spoken.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to me in this verse that death and hell are not the lake of fire, but are thrown into it and all those who have rejected Christ at His coming are also thrown into it.

These two responses tell me that you didn't actually read what I wrote, don't understand what I wrote, or just don't care what I wrote and are only interested in your opinions as truth and don't like being corrected.

What Bible version do you use?

 

[for_his_glory]

These two responses tell me that you didn't actually read what I wrote, don't understand what I wrote, or just don't care what I wrote and are only interested in your opinions as truth and don't like being corrected.

What Bible version do you use?

If you read what I posted in #10 and post #37 you will see what Bible I use and why hell is never associated with being the lake of fire so let's not make this about KJV only-ism. Yes, I read what you wrote. The word hell is never described as being the lake of fire in any scripture as it is only mans traditional teachings that make it out to be the lake of fire.

I also ask you a question, but you did not give me an answer so I will ask again.
Rev 20:14, 15 death and hell are not the lake of fire, but are thrown into it and all those who have rejected Christ at His coming are also thrown into it so how can hell be the lake of fire?

 

[for_his_glory]

It is much more than a guess. I gave good reasons, based the scriptures I quoted, for why it is most likely the case.

Good reason is only that of reasoning the word of God by using logic without knowing for sure as one needs to rightly divide the word of God through the Holy Spirit to discern what is truth or error.

 

[Butch5]

You say Gehenna is the end time lake of fire and will always be here on earth. I've already explained Gehenna is not the end time lake of fire. According to Rev Chapter 21 how is this possible that as you put it Gehenna being the lake of fire will still exist here on earth after God makes everything new again. When Christ returns he cast the beast, false prophet and Satan into the lake of fire and then those who are still alive that have rejected Christ will be gathered with those from the grave as being part of the second resurrection that has no power as they stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and also cast into the lake of fire, but scripture does not tell of its location, but that it is in outer darkness. Rev Chapters 19-2, Matthew 8:5-12; 22:1-14; 25:14-30

I didn't say the lake of fire will always be on the earth, however it will be after Christ returns. In this post you have the judgment of the dead at the return of Christ. That is not when it happens. When Christ returns the believers will be raised, that is the first reusrrection. They will reign with Christ for 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment when the rest of the dead are judged. During that 1000 years there will be other nations that are still on the earth. At the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed again for a short time to test those on the earth. It is after this that he and the rest are cast into the Lake of Fire.

You've said that the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna. However, that presents you with a dilemma. How can John be teaching that the fate of the wicked is different than what Jesus taught? Jesus taught that the fate of the wicked is Gehenna. IF the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna then John would be contradicting Jesus as to where the wicked will be cast..

 

[Free]

If you read what I posted in #10 and post #37 you will see what Bible I use and why hell is never associated with being the lake of fire so let's not make this about KJV only-ism. Yes, I read what you wrote. The word hell is never described as being the lake of fire in any scripture as it is only mans traditional teachings that make it out to be the lake of fire.

I also ask you a question, but you did not give me an answer so I will ask again.
Rev 20:14, 15 death and hell are not the lake of fire, but are thrown into it and all those who have rejected Christ at His coming are also thrown into it so how can hell be the lake of fire?

Okay, let's back up a bit and I'll add some clarification as well as show you more precisely where you have erred.

For clarification:

1. Jesus clearly spoke of gehenna as the final place of the wicked, that is, after judgement. This is beyond dispute.
2. Revelation gives us the name of the final place of the wicked as the Lake of Fire. This is beyond dispute.
3. Both gehenna and the Lake of Fire are spoken of as places of fire and punishment. This is beyond dispute.
4. The only logical conclusion is that gehenna is the same place as the Lake of Fire, metaphorically speaking.

That is, Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire. Although it is always possible the two are literally one and the same, it's just unlikely.

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Now this is where you are quite wrong. I don't know if you are purposely being deceptive or just haven't studied the issue enough or have only studied those things which confirm what you already thought was true.

It is also worth noting that what I am going to show you shows how the KJV has caused some of your confusion by erroneously translating three different words as "hell." You would have come across this if you read Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, so I don't know why you purposely avoided it.

You correctly state that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has Greek #86 (hades) translated as "hell," at least roughly the equivalent of the Hebrew sheol, meaning "grave." But, you do not state all that Strong's shows and which supports what I previously stated: Strong's also gives Greek #1067 (gehenna) and Greek #5020 (tartaroo), as being translated as "hell." This is very clearly shown in Strong's. Why you didn't show this to be the case I do not know, especially since #1067 appears first and is the most often used--Gehenna appears 12 times, hades 10 times, and tartaroo just once.

If you read what I posted in #10 and post #37 you will see what Bible I use and why hell is never associated with being the lake of fire so let's not make this about KJV only-ism. Yes, I read what you wrote. The word hell is never described as being the lake of fire in any scripture as it is only mans traditional teachings that make it out to be the lake of fire.

But according to the KJV, Jesus said hell is a place of fire and punishment. Who is right, you, the KJV, or Jesus? And why are you once again seemingly being deceptive by not acknowledging all that the KJV says about hell in the NT?

I also ask you a question, but you did not give me an answer so I will ask again.
Rev 20:14, 15 death and hell are not the lake of fire, but are thrown into it and all those who have rejected Christ at His coming are also thrown into it so how can hell be the lake of fire?

The answer was within my post. It was the fact that you want to use hades alone (despite what the KJV and Strong's clearly state), to be translated as "hell." But since I was arguing that gehenna is also translated "hell"--used by Jesus metaphorically for the final place of the wicked, the Lake of Fire--the answer is that your argument that hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire is incorrect. It is "death and the grave" (makes sense) that are thrown into hell, along with everyone whose name is not written in the Book.

 

[Free]

Good reason is only that of reasoning the word of God by using logic without knowing for sure as one needs to rightly divide the word of God through the Holy Spirit to discern what is truth or error.

God gave us our faculties of reasoning and he expects us to use them when reading Scripture--indeed we can't even read Scripture if we don't--and we can use reason to separate truth from error. Some things take much more discernment through the Holy Spirit, but many things, such as the use of hell, can simply be figured out through reason, as I showed in my previous post.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't say the lake of fire will always be on the earth, however it will be after Christ returns. In this post you have the judgment of the dead at the return of Christ. That is not when it happens. When Christ returns the believers will be raised, that is the first reusrrection. They will reign with Christ for 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment when the rest of the dead are judged. During that 1000 years there will be other nations that are still on the earth. At the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed again for a short time to test those on the earth. It is after this that he and the rest are cast into the Lake of Fire.

You've said that the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna. However, that presents you with a dilemma. How can John be teaching that the fate of the wicked is different than what Jesus taught? Jesus taught that the fate of the wicked is Gehenna. IF the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna then John would be contradicting Jesus as to where the wicked will be cast..

I must have misunderstood you, but I don't believe the lake of fire is Gehenna nor will it ever be on this present earth or the new earth according to what I have already posted in #10 and #37 as I feel we need not rehash all of that again. Yes, it will be after Christ returns that the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, that is only mentioned as being in outer darkness, after mystery Babylon is reveal and then destroyed. Then Christ returns with all those from the grave and those who are still alive at His coming that meet Him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17, and come back with Him as His army. Then Jesus binds Satan for a while, (I do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign nor a pretrib Rapture), sets him loose for a short time and then Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are cast into. Then comes God's Great White Throne Judgment and those who have rejected Christ are then cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more. Jesus never taught that the lake of fire was Gehenna, but only compared it to Gehenna where the worm never dies as the lake of fire has never been known by another name nor has its location ever been taught other than being in outer darkness.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, let's back up a bit and I'll add some clarification as well as show you more precisely where you have erred.

For clarification:

1. Jesus clearly spoke of gehenna as the final place of the wicked, that is, after judgement. This is beyond dispute.
2. Revelation gives us the name of the final place of the wicked as the Lake of Fire. This is beyond dispute.
3. Both gehenna and the Lake of Fire are spoken of as places of fire and punishment. This is beyond dispute.
4. The only logical conclusion is that gehenna is the same place as the Lake of Fire, metaphorically speaking.

That is, Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire. Although it is always possible the two are literally one and the same, it's just unlikely.


Now this is where you are quite wrong. I don't know if you are purposely being deceptive or just haven't studied the issue enough or have only studied those things which confirm what you already thought was true.

It is also worth noting that what I am going to show you shows how the KJV has caused some of your confusion by erroneously translating three different words as "hell." You would have come across this if you read Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, so I don't know why you purposely avoided it.

You correctly state that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has Greek #86 (hades) translated as "hell," at least roughly the equivalent of the Hebrew sheol, meaning "grave." But, you do not state all that Strong's shows and which supports what I previously stated: Strong's also gives Greek #1067 (gehenna) and Greek #5020 (tartaroo), as being translated as "hell." This is very clearly shown in Strong's. Why you didn't show this to be the case I do not know, especially since #1067 appears first and is the most often used--Gehenna appears 12 times, hades 10 times, and tartaroo just once.


But according to the KJV, Jesus said hell is a place of fire and punishment. Who is right, you, the KJV, or Jesus? And why are you once again seemingly being deceptive by not acknowledging all that the KJV says about hell in the NT?


The answer was within my post. It was the fact that you want to use hades alone (despite what the KJV and Strong's clearly state), to be translated as "hell." But since I was arguing that gehenna is also translated "hell"--used by Jesus metaphorically for the final place of the wicked, the Lake of Fire--the answer is that your argument that hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire is incorrect. It is "death and the grave" (makes sense) that are thrown into hell, along with everyone whose name is not written in the Book.

First I resent you calling what I teach as being deceptive as I would never purposely deceive anyone. I put many hours, days, and years into what I study. If I am wrong in what I believe to be truth then it is me alone that will stand before Christ to give an account of what I have taught others and you have no right to judge me for what I believe especially if it comes against what you believe. I do see though you have a problem with the KJV, maybe!

Gehenna is not the same place as the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal place and can not be compared to hell being the grave/pit we go to when this body dies and is laid to rest in the ground. (Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam).
Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Hell nor Gehenna are the lake of fire in the end of days as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24. Jesus only compares Gehenna to the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal, but also used as a metaphor to describe the lake of fire that will be in outer darkness and nowhere here on earth.

Where in the KJV did Jesus say hell was a place of fire and punishment as I need scripture for this as I might have missed it?

 

[Free]

First I resent you calling what I teach as being deceptive as I would never purposely deceive anyone. I put many hours, days, and years into what I study.

I never said it was deceptive, I merely suggested that it possibly was.

If I am wrong in what I believe to be truth then it is me alone that will stand before Christ to give an account of what I have taught others and you have no right to judge me for what I believe especially if it comes against what you believe.

On the one hand, you are correct that you will give an account, as will I, but the NT actually commands us to judge teachings. How are we supposed to know who are false teachers and who are not if we cannot judge anyone's doctrinal teachings? You have clearly, and correctly, judged that my teaching is different than your teaching on this subject. Obviously we cannot both be right, and the Christian response to this is to judge and compare and see which teaching is the correct one, or most likely the correct one, and then discard the other.

I do see though you have a problem with the KJV, maybe!

Not at all. Pointing out an issue with a translation doesn't mean I "have a problem" with it. As I stated previously, it is an error common to several translations.

Gehenna is not the same place as the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal place and can not be compared to hell being the grave/pit we go to when this body dies and is laid to rest in the ground. (Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam).
Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Now you post gehenna as meaning "hell," according to Strong's. Why not before? And notice that you still are intent on saying hell is only the grave/pit, despite what the KJV says and what Strong's says.

Hell nor Gehenna are the lake of fire

Which "hell" are you talking about--hades or gehenna?

in the end of days as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24. Jesus only compares Gehenna to the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal, but also used as a metaphor to describe the lake of fire that will be in outer darkness and nowhere here on earth.

Is that not the same, or essentially the same, as to what I said, that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the wicked?

Where in the KJV did Jesus say hell was a place of fire and punishment as I need scripture for this as I might have missed it?

Fire: these are all gehenna

Mat_5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat_18:9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar_9:45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Punishment: every other used of gehenna

Mat_5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat_10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Etc.

 

[Butch5]

I must have misunderstood you, but I don't believe the lake of fire is Gehenna nor will it ever be on this present earth or the new earth according to what I have already posted in #10 and #37 as I feel we need not rehash all of that again. Yes, it will be after Christ returns that the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, that is only mentioned as being in outer darkness, after mystery Babylon is reveal and then destroyed. Then Christ returns with all those from the grave and those who are still alive at His coming that meet Him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17, and come back with Him as His army. Then Jesus binds Satan for a while, (I do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign nor a pretrib Rapture), sets him loose for a short time and then Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are cast into. Then comes God's Great White Throne Judgment and those who have rejected Christ are then cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more. Jesus never taught that the lake of fire was Gehenna, but only compared it to Gehenna where the worm never dies as the lake of fire has never been known by another name nor has its location ever been taught other than being in outer darkness.

You still haven't addressed the dilemma. If the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna, then John is giving a different destination for the wicked than Jesus did. If that is the case then why do you take John's word over that of Jesus? Jesus said wicked would be cast into Gehenna

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matt. 5:29 KJV)

Hell in this passage is Gehenna, not a place like Gehenna.

Also, John is the only one who writes about a lake of fire. The rest of the apostles understood that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. Were they all wrong? Also, if they are different they are different places why would you take John's word over that of Jesus and all of the rest of the apostles?

 

[Butch5]

First I resent you calling what I teach as being deceptive as I would never purposely deceive anyone. I put many hours, days, and years into what I study. If I am wrong in what I believe to be truth then it is me alone that will stand before Christ to give an account of what I have taught others and you have no right to judge me for what I believe especially if it comes against what you believe. I do see though you have a problem with the KJV, maybe!

Gehenna is not the same place as the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal place and can not be compared to hell being the grave/pit we go to when this body dies and is laid to rest in the ground. (Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam).
Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Hell nor Gehenna are the lake of fire in the end of days as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24. Jesus only compares Gehenna to the end of days lake of fire as Gehenna is a literal, but also used as a metaphor to describe the lake of fire that will be in outer darkness and nowhere here on earth.

Where in the KJV did Jesus say hell was a place of fire and punishment as I need scripture for this as I might have missed it?

Why do you believe that Gehenna is being used as a metaphor? What is your reason? Jesus gave a literal location where the dead would be cast. In another post indicated that we don't know where the Lake of Fire is or will be. Why do you think that an actual location is metaphor for some unknown location? It would seem to me that logic would have it the other way. An unknown location would be a metaphor for a known location. Gehenna is an actual location. "Lake of Fire" is not a location, it's a description of a location. I don't understand how you've drawn your conclusion.

 

[for_his_glory]

I never said it was deceptive, I merely suggested that it possibly was.


On the one hand, you are correct that you will give an account, as will I, but the NT actually commands us to judge teachings. How are we supposed to know who are false teachers and who are not if we cannot judge anyone's doctrinal teachings? You have clearly, and correctly, judged that my teaching is different than your teaching on this subject. Obviously we cannot both be right, and the Christian response to this is to judge and compare and see which teaching is the correct one, or most likely the correct one, and then discard the other.


Not at all. Pointing out an issue with a translation doesn't mean I "have a problem" with it. As I stated previously, it is an error common to several translations.


Now you post gehenna as meaning "hell," according to Strong's. Why not before? And notice that you still are intent on saying hell is only the grave/pit, despite what the KJV says and what Strong's says.


Which "hell" are you talking about--hades or gehenna?


Is that not the same, or essentially the same, as to what I said, that Jesus used gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the wicked?


Fire: these are all gehenna

Mat_5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat_18:9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar_9:45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Punishment: every other used of gehenna

Mat_5:29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat_10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Etc.

There will always be disagreements no doubt for we are ever learning as no one could ever exhaust the word of God. I can only pray I am right with what I teach as the Holy Spirit is quick to convict me if I am wrong. I know everyone says they listen to the Holy Spirit, but yet there is conflicting doctrines, so I would say it is only up to us as an individual to rightly divide the word of God and draw our own conclusions on what is brought before us by others as we discuss and share with each other.

I never posted Gehenna as being hell, but only showing what hell means in Hebrew #7585 and Greek #86 and what Gehenna means in the Greek #1067. Maybe I should have separated Gehenna from the other two to show Gehenna has nothing to do with hell or the end of days lake of fire.

Yes, I did agree with you as Gehenna being a metaphor as Jesus compared them as a burning place where the worm never dies.

Thank you for those scriptures. I relate them to death and hell being cast into the lake of fire of those who are a part of the second resurrection which has no power, Rev 20:6, 11-15. In my understanding of these scriptures Jesus is saying that it is better to get rid of that which offends us and that could cause us to never accept Jesus before we die and return to the dust of the ground (grave/pit/hell - Hebrew #7585 Greek #86) as those who are found offensive and have rejected Christ will be part of the second resurrection spoken of in Rev 20:6, 11-15 when death and hell, being the grave, are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

You still haven't addressed the dilemma. If the Lake of Fire is not Gehenna, then John is giving a different destination for the wicked than Jesus did. If that is the case then why do you take John's word over that of Jesus? Jesus said wicked would be cast into Gehenna

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matt. 5:29 KJV)

Hell in this passage is Gehenna, not a place like Gehenna.

Also, John is the only one who writes about a lake of fire. The rest of the apostles understood that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. Were they all wrong? Also, if they are different they are different places why would you take John's word over that of Jesus and all of the rest of the apostles?

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Strong's Exhausted Concordance - Gehenna
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam (not the end of days lake of fire)

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet. It was also used as a garbage dump.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell meaning the grave/pit where many were cast into and burned to death. The worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse.

 

[Butch5]

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Strong's Exhausted Concordance - Gehenna
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam (not the end of days lake of fire)

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet. It was also used as a garbage dump.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell meaning the grave/pit where many were cast into and burned to death. The worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse.

Are you saying you believe it because it's in a commentary? No one mentions a lake of fire except John and he only does it in Revelation. Revelation is a book full of symbols. Gehenna is a real place. Are you saying that the literal Gehenna is a symbol for a symbolic lake of fire? That seems backwards to me. Throughout the Scriptures it is Gehenna where people will be burned and then in the very last revelation from God John mentions a lake of fire. In a book that is full of symbolism. Do you really believe that this one mention of a lake of fire overturns all the God had said in the past?