is there a lake of fire ?

[Free]

I never posted Gehenna as being hell, but only showing what hell means in Hebrew #7585 and Greek #86 and what Gehenna means in the Greek #1067. Maybe I should have separated Gehenna from the other two to show Gehenna has nothing to do with hell or the end of days lake of fire.

But I have made clear two very important things:

1. The KJV translates both hades and gehenna as "hell."
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, under the word listing for "hell," gives us hades (Gr #86), gehenna (Gr #1067), and tartaroo (Gr #5020).

I don't see how my Strong's Concordance can tell me that and yours doesn't, but at the very least, you are in disagreement with the KJV. Here is further support:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/geenna.html

In my understanding of these scriptures Jesus is saying that it is better to get rid of that which offends us and that could cause us to never accept Jesus before we die and return to the dust of the ground (grave/pit/hell - Hebrew #7585 Greek #86) as those who are found offensive and have rejected Christ will be part of the second resurrection spoken of in Rev 20:6, 11-15 when death and hell, being the grave, are cast into the lake of fire.

But, again, you are not sticking to what the Bible actually says. The whole point, as I made clear, is that Jesus uses the word gehenna in those passages. You seem to be taking the KJV's use of "hell" at face value at not actually looking at the Greek word being used, which is what I was pointing out.

So, no, Jesus is not saying "that it is better to get rid of that which offends us and that could cause us to never accept Jesus before we die and return to the dust of the ground (grave/pit/hell - Hebrew #7585 Greek #86)," he is saying that it is better to get rid of that which causes us to sin and enter into eternal life maimed than to get thrown into the eternal fire (hell - Greek #1067).

 

[Free]

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Strong's Exhausted Concordance - Gehenna
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

List all that Strong's gives under the word heading "hell". The only place you'll find gehenna is under the Greek number listing, just as you would find hades. Gehenna is a transliterated word and so it does not appear under the word headings, as "hell" does.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying you believe it because it's in a commentary? No one mentions a lake of fire except John and he only does it in Revelation. Revelation is a book full of symbols. Gehenna is a real place. Are you saying that the literal Gehenna is a symbol for a symbolic lake of fire? That seems backwards to me. Throughout the Scriptures it is Gehenna where people will be burned and then in the very last revelation from God John mentions a lake of fire. In a book that is full of symbolism. Do you really believe that this one mention of a lake of fire overturns all the God had said in the past?

I don't believe all commentaries, but Spiritually discern what they use for supportive scripture as I compare scripture with scripture and OT with NT. Then I go to Strong's Exhausted Concordance to look up the Hebrew and Greek meaning of words like hell and Gehenna. I know Gehenna is a real place with a real location as I have already explained that in post #59, but is symbolic of the lake of fire as a burning place of everlasting torment. Gehenna is not the lake of fire that John speaks of in Revelations as the lake of fire has no location other than being in outer darkness, Matthew 8:5-12; 22:1-14; 25:30; 2Peter 2:4, but death and hell will be thrown into it, Rev 20:13, as part of the second resurrection, Rev 20:6, so hell, (meaning the grave/pit according to Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell), is not the lake of fire either.

 

[for_his_glory]

But I have made clear two very important things:

1. The KJV translates both hades and gehenna as "hell."
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, under the word listing for "hell," gives us hades (Gr #86), gehenna (Gr #1067), and tartaroo (Gr #5020).

I don't see how my Strong's Concordance can tell me that and yours doesn't, but at the very least, you are in disagreement with the KJV. Here is further support:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/geenna.html


But, again, you are not sticking to what the Bible actually says. The whole point, as I made clear, is that Jesus uses the word gehenna in those passages. You seem to be taking the KJV's use of "hell" at face value at not actually looking at the Greek word being used, which is what I was pointing out.

So, no, Jesus is not saying "that it is better to get rid of that which offends us and that could cause us to never accept Jesus before we die and return to the dust of the ground (grave/pit/hell - Hebrew #7585 Greek #86)," he is saying that it is better to get rid of that which causes us to sin and enter into eternal life maimed than to get thrown into the eternal fire (hell - Greek #1067).

You might want to take another look at the Greek as # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Where I see our disagreement is that you believe hell and Gehenna mean the same thing, but clearly do not as hell is the grave/pit and Gehenna is a real place with a real location on a map and was a burning place and also symbolic of the lake of fire where death and hell will be cast into the burning fires, Rev 20:6, 13, as being part of the second resurrection.

Matthew 5:29; 18:9 hell here means that of Rev 20:13 where the dead and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. It is those who are dead and still in the grave that have rejected Jesus and are part of the second resurrection, Rev 20:6, as those who have made themselves ready to be the Bride of Christ will have already been taken up in the first resurrection to meet Jesus in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19

 

[Free]

You might want to take another look at the Greek as # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Where I see our disagreement is that you believe hell and Gehenna mean the same thing, but clearly do not as hell is the grave/pit and Gehenna is a real place with a real location on a map and was a burning place and also symbolic of the lake of fire where death and hell will be cast into the burning fires, Rev 20:6, 13, as being part of the second resurrection.

Matthew 5:29; 18:9 hell here means that of Rev 20:13 where the dead and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. It is those who are dead and still in the grave that have rejected Jesus and are part of the second resurrection, Rev 20:6, as those who have made themselves ready to be the Bride of Christ will have already been taken up in the first resurrection to meet Jesus in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19

Why aren't you addressing my points? What are you avoiding?

 

[for_his_glory]

List all that Strong's gives under the word heading "hell". The only place you'll find gehenna is under the Greek number listing, just as you would find hades. Gehenna is a transliterated word and so it does not appear under the word headings, as "hell" does.

The Hinnom Valley is also called “the valley of the son of Hinnom” or “Valley of Benhinnom.” This was shortened to “Valley Hinnom” which in Hebrew is pronounced, “Ge Hinnom” and transliterated into Greek as “Gehenna.” Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell.

In 27 AD Jesus made reference to this location calling it by the Greek name Gehenna when he said:
Anyone who says, “You fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - Matthew 5:22

Likewise, James, Jesus’ brother, writing from Jerusalem around 48 AD says of the tongue:
It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - James 3:6

I just found this website today as it explains in depth what Gehenna is and where it is located and also confirms all I have already tried to explain:
http://www.generationword.com/jerusalem101/11-hinnom-valley.html

 

[for_his_glory]

Why aren't you addressing my points? What are you avoiding?

I have addressed your points, but you only see that of the point you are trying to make, but refusing to see that even Jesus makes reference to Gehenna as a burning place, but never says it is the end of days lake of fire, but only symbolic of it in it's description.

 

[Free]

The Hinnom Valley is also called “the valley of the son of Hinnom” or “Valley of Benhinnom.” This was shortened to “Valley Hinnom” which in Hebrew is pronounced, “Ge Hinnom” and transliterated into Greek as “Gehenna.” Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell.

In 27 AD Jesus made reference to this location calling it by the Greek name Gehenna when he said:
Anyone who says, “You fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - Matthew 5:22

Likewise, James, Jesus’ brother, writing from Jerusalem around 48 AD says of the tongue:
It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - James 3:6

I just found this website today as it explains in depth what Gehenna is and where it is located and also confirms all I have already tried to explain:
http://www.generationword.com/jerusalem101/11-hinnom-valley.html

Again, this is not addressing what I posted. Are you even reading what I post?

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, this is not addressing what I posted. Are you even reading what I post?

Yes I am reading what you post and thought I had addressed it, but maybe you need to repost that of what you want me to address in particular it as I might have missed something in it.

 

[Free]

The Hinnom Valley is also called “the valley of the son of Hinnom” or “Valley of Benhinnom.” This was shortened to “Valley Hinnom” which in Hebrew is pronounced, “Ge Hinnom” and transliterated into Greek as “Gehenna.” Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell.

In 27 AD Jesus made reference to this location calling it by the Greek name Gehenna when he said:
Anyone who says, “You fool!” will be in danger of the fire of hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - Matthew 5:22

Likewise, James, Jesus’ brother, writing from Jerusalem around 48 AD says of the tongue:
It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell (or, in the Greek, “Gehenna”). - James 3:6

I just found this website today as it explains in depth what Gehenna is and where it is located and also confirms all I have already tried to explain:
http://www.generationword.com/jerusalem101/11-hinnom-valley.html

I should have looked closer as this as not only does it not address my post, it confirms what I have been saying and contradicts what you have been saying:

"Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell."

Yes I am reading what you post and thought I had addressed it, but maybe you need to repost that of what you want me to address in particular it as I might have missed something in it.

The very first thing I said in that post was: 'List all that Strong's gives under the word heading "hell",' and the rest of the post was about Strong's. Do you see how your post does not refer to Strong's at all?

 

[for_his_glory]

I should have looked closer as this as not only does it not address my post, it confirms what I have been saying and contradicts what you have been saying:

"Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell."


The very first thing I said in that post was: 'List all that Strong's gives under the word heading "hell",' and the rest of the post was about Strong's. Do you see how your post does not refer to Strong's at all?

Strong’s Exhausted Concordance – Hell

Hebrew #7585 shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
2. the underworld
3. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
4. place of no return
5. without praise of God
6. wicked sent there for punishment
7. righteous not abandoned to it
8. of the place of exile (fig)
9. of extreme degradation in sin
Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29; 44:31; Numbers 16:30,33; Deuteronomy 32:22; 1Samuel 2:6; 1Kings 2:6,9; Job 7:9; 11:8; 14:13; 17:13,16; 21:13; 24:19; 26:6; Psalms 6:5; 9:17; 16:10; 18:5, 30:3; 31:17; 49:14,15; 49:15; 55:15; 86:13; 88:3; 89:48; 116:3; 139:8; 141:7; Proverbs 1:12; 5:5 7:27; 9:18; 15:11; 23:14; 27:20; 30:16; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Song of Solomon 8:6; Isaiah 5:14; 14:9, 11, 15; 28:15

Greek #86 †ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14

Greek #1067 γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6

Greek #5020 ταρταρόω tartaróō, tar-tar-o'-o; from Τάρταρος Tártaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:—cast down to hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
2Peter 2:4

 

[Free]

Strong’s Exhausted Concordance – Hell

Hebrew #7585 shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
2. the underworld
3. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
4. place of no return
5. without praise of God
6. wicked sent there for punishment
7. righteous not abandoned to it
8. of the place of exile (fig)
9. of extreme degradation in sin
Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29; 44:31; Numbers 16:30,33; Deuteronomy 32:22; 1Samuel 2:6; 1Kings 2:6,9; Job 7:9; 11:8; 14:13; 17:13,16; 21:13; 24:19; 26:6; Psalms 6:5; 9:17; 16:10; 18:5, 30:3; 31:17; 49:14,15; 49:15; 55:15; 86:13; 88:3; 89:48; 116:3; 139:8; 141:7; Proverbs 1:12; 5:5 7:27; 9:18; 15:11; 23:14; 27:20; 30:16; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Song of Solomon 8:6; Isaiah 5:14; 14:9, 11, 15; 28:15

Greek #86 †ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14

Greek #1067 γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6

Greek #5020 ταρταρόω tartaróō, tar-tar-o'-o; from Τάρταρος Tártaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:—cast down to hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1. the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
2Peter 2:4

Thank you. Do you see that this supports everything I have been saying, that gehenna is also translated as "hell"?

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you. Do you see that this supports everything I have been saying, that gehenna is also translated as "hell"?

It's not translated as hell as it describes a valley of Jerusalem used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell as in Rev 20:6, 13 where the wicked who are in the grave/pit will have their part in the second resurrection where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Gehenna is only used symbolically by Jesus as He never mentioned the name Gehenna in scripture, but only compared it to hell and hell fire where the wicked will go to as in the grave/pit when they die and then death and hell will be cast into the end of days lake of fire that has no literal location other than being in outer darkness as the sting of death is sin as it has its part in the second resurrection.

 

[Free]

It's not translated as hell

It is translated as "hell" and both of your previous posts show that to be the case. Strong's very clearly shows that gehenna appears 12 times in Scripture and is translated as "hell" each and every time, in pretty much every translation including the KJV.

The whole point of me getting you to post all that Strong's shows under the word "hell," was so that you would see that gehenna is very clearly listed, meaning that it is translated as "hell". That's the whole point of Strong's--to show the Greek and Hebrew words behind the English translations..

Gehenna is only used symbolically by Jesus as He never mentioned the name Gehenna in scripture, but only compared it to hell and hell fire

You say that Jesus "never mentioned the name Gehenna in Scripture" yet he "compared it to hell and hell fire". How do you know he compared it if he didn't mention it? It's impossible to make a comparison without mentioning just what it is that is being compared.

Jesus mentioned gehenna several times, as I have previously posted and as Strong's shows. And each time it is translated as "hell".

 

[for_his_glory]

It is translated as "hell" and both of your previous posts show that to be the case. Strong's very clearly shows that gehenna appears 12 times in Scripture and is translated as "hell" each and every time, in pretty much every translation including the KJV.

The whole point of me getting you to post all that Strong's shows under the word "hell," was so that you would see that gehenna is very clearly listed, meaning that it is translated as "hell". That's the whole point of Strong's--to show the Greek and Hebrew words behind the English translations..


You say that Jesus "never mentioned the name Gehenna in Scripture" yet he "compared it to hell and hell fire". How do you know he compared it if he didn't mention it? It's impossible to make a comparison without mentioning just what it is that is being compared.

Jesus mentioned gehenna several times, as I have previously posted and as Strong's shows. And each time it is translated as "hell".

I still do not see literal Gehenna being translated as hell/grave/pit as only the location of the fiery pit that became hell/grave/pit for many wicked people who are still laying under the ground found within Gehenna just outside the walls of Jerusalem as the burning fires outside of Jerusalem that became hell/grave/pit for many who are still in the ground there is a cross reference for what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:22,29,30 as hell and hell fire for the wicked and also that of Rev 20:6,13 where death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as being part of the second resurrection.

 

[Free]

I still do not see literal Gehenna being translated as hell/grave/pit

But this is precisely what I have not been saying. As we have seen, Strong's has three Greek words that are all translated as "hell"--gehenna, hades, and tartaroo. Hades is the grave/pit, not gehenna, but yet both are translated as "hell"--hades in some versions; gehenna in pretty much all versions.

as the burning fires outside of Jerusalem that became hell/grave/pit for many who are still in the ground there is a cross reference for what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:22,29,30 as hell and hell fire for the wicked and also that of Rev 20:6,13 where death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as being part of the second resurrection.

Now you are here saying that Jesus used gehenna in speaking of hell and hell fire, which is of course correct, but you previously denied he spoke the word gehenna. But in Rev.20:13, "hell" is the Greek word hades.

 

[for_his_glory]

But this is precisely what I have not been saying. As we have seen, Strong's has three Greek words that are all translated as "hell"--gehenna, hades, and tartaroo. Hades is the grave/pit, not gehenna, but yet both are translated as "hell"--hades in some versions; gehenna in pretty much all versions.


Now you are here saying that Jesus used gehenna in speaking of hell and hell fire, which is of course correct, but you previously denied he spoke the word gehenna. But in Rev.20:13, "hell" is the Greek word hades.

I've been saying all along Jesus made reference to Gehenna in speaking of hell and hell fire where the worm never dies, but I have never seen in scripture where Jesus actually says the word Gehenna, but only hell and hell fire so can you show me the scripture where Jesus actually says Gehenna.

 

[Free]

I've been saying all along Jesus made reference to Gehenna in speaking of hell and hell fire where the worm never dies, but I have never seen in scripture where Jesus actually says the word Gehenna, but only hell and hell fire so can you show me the scripture where Jesus actually says Gehenna.

I have shown you and Strong's shows you; that was the whole point. It is clear that you do not understand how to use a concordance. Do you believe that the NT was written in Greek and not English?

 

[Malachi]

Yes, I know what it is. I'm asking why you think we won't see it.

Hell is in *Outer Darkness*. Possibly beyond space. The eternal home of believers is the New Jerusalem, where God and Christ remain eternally. Therefore we will never see Hell, which is for unbelievers and all those who have not been saved by grace.

 

[Malachi]

I've been saying all along Jesus made reference to Gehenna in speaking of hell and hell fire where the worm never dies, but I have never seen in scripture where Jesus actually says the word Gehenna, but only hell and hell fire so can you show me the scripture where Jesus actually says Gehenna.

While Jesus spoke Aramaic, His words were recorded in Greek, and therefore He spoke of Gehenna all the time. It is the Lake of Fire (eternal Hell). The KJV did not take care to transliterate the words Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, but called them all "hell" and caused a lot of confusion. That is why it is important to study Strong's Concordance and other Bible study tools.