If hell is the lake of fire then how can it be thrown into itself, Rev 20:14?
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is there a lake of fire ?
- Thread starter thesaintman
- Start date
Please do not tell me I do not know how to use a concordance as that is very rude of you and we do not need to go there.
I can't understand why you think Gehenna is hell as it is only mentioned in the Greek as a literal valley where children were burned to death as sacrifices, others that were deemed wicked where thrown in the pit that became their grave as they were burned up and then later became a garbage dump. Jesus only makes reference to Gehenna or Gehenna of fire (hell and hell fire - hell/grave/pit) as a comparison to the end of days lake of fire where the wicked and those who have reject Christ will be cast into to burn in the fires of torment forever as they are consumed by their sin.
Greek #1067 γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.
Outline of Biblical Usage:
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6
Well, I'm not intending to be rude, but when you say that you "have never seen in scripture where Jesus actually says the word Gehenna, but only hell and hell fire," it is hard to come to any other conclusion because one of the purposes of a concordance is to show where certain words are used. And your own posts show this to be the case, even the part you repeat at the end of this post:
"Greek #1067 γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.
Outline of Biblical Usage:
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6"
Each of those passages from Matthew, Mark, and Luke are instances of Jesus using the word gehenna, which is interpreted as "hell". Again, that is one of the purposes of a concordance. Not only that, the previous post where you posted this, http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...here-a-lake-of-fire.64842/page-4#post-1210712, shows that gehenna is interpreted as "hell."
You also posted this regarding Strong's (post #58):
"I never posted Gehenna as being hell, but only showing what hell means in Hebrew #7585 and Greek #86 and what Gehenna means in the Greek #1067. Maybe I should have separated Gehenna from the other two to show Gehenna has nothing to do with hell or the end of days lake of fire."
And yet, in that post of yours I linked to up above, once you posted all that Strong's lists under "hell," after having to ask you to do so, it shows that gehenna is translated as "hell".
Then in post #64 you state: "Where I see our disagreement is that you believe hell and Gehenna mean the same thing, but clearly do not as hell is the grave/pit".
But that ignores what Strong's shows us.
You also posted this:
"The word hell is never described as being the lake of fire in any scripture as it is only mans traditional teachings that make it out to be the lake of fire. "
But then posted this later as support for what you are saying:
"The Hinnom Valley is also called “the valley of the son of Hinnom” or “Valley of Benhinnom.” This was shortened to “Valley Hinnom” which in Hebrew is pronounced, “Ge Hinnom” and transliterated into Greek as “Gehenna.” Thus, the Hinnom Valley is the Gehenna of the New Testament, which is associated with fire, judgment, the Lake of Fire, eternal fire and Hell."
So you have contradicted yourself a few times and have failed to address those contradictions.
Because Strong's says it is and because most every Bible translation translates gehenna as "hell." It is hades that is translated as "hell" in relatively few translations, likely because when one thinks of hell, it is usually the final destination of the wicked. But as I have previously stated, the KJV erroneously translates both gehenna and hades as "hell".
I have been saying all along that it is associated, described, prophetically symbolic as Jesus likened the continual fires that burned in Gehenna where the worm never dies to the burning fires of the end time lake of fire in its description. Gehenna is used in the same sense as the days of Noah in Matthew 24:36,37; Sodom and Gomorrah in Matthew 11:20-24; Jude 1:7 as these are parallel verses to the same thing as Gehenna of fire where those who have rejected Christ will be cast into the lake of fire.
Jim Parker
Member
Jesus said there is a lake of fire.
Next question.
Butch5
Member
But not one passage you posted mentions the lake of fire. What is the basis for saying that outer darkness is the lake of fire. That seems illogical to me, How can a lake of fire be dark? Fire gives off light. Also, Jesus stated plainly that the wicked would be case into Gehenna. How can that be a metaphor for anything? It's a clear statement. As I pointed out before there is no mention of a lake of fire until John wrote Revelation. Would you submit that all of the Christians before this were misled or ill informed? They didn't know anything about a lake of fire, they knew that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna.
Butch5
Member
Which hell are you talking about. Hades is the grave, Gehenna is outside of Jerusalem, and Tartarus is reserved for angels. Where do you see anything in Scripture that says hell is in outer darkness. As I said in the last post a lake of fire would give off light.
It gives off black light.
Outer darkness is only used as a descriptive location for where the lake of fire is found as in Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30
Please show me the scripture that Jesus uses the word Gehenna as all I have ever read was hell or hell fire in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6"
We have been over this and I have, in several posts, made it abundantly clear. Do you believe that the NT was written in Greek?
Why can't you show me that scripture I asked for? What does Greek have to do with what the scriptures already say unless you or I are fluent in the Greek and Hebrew language I will read it for what it says and use the Greek and Hebrew definitions for certain explanation of words like I have many times in here.
I have shown you the scriptures you asked for, more than once. It's a simple question, please answer.
KevinK
Member
I just wanted to comment on the dark lake-of-fire thing. Yes, it certainly is possible for a fire to be dark. First off, God can do anything, but even without that consideration, dark fires exist even in nature. The mitochondria in our cells burn carbohydrate fuel to power our bodies without producing a single photon of light. It is a literal dark fire. That's just one example.
Many people have seen the dark fire in visions- Bill Weiss, Mary K. Baxter. Only the faintest glow is seen if anything at all. This underscores God's nature as goodness and light. The opposite of God is darkness, even for fires.
Many people have seen the dark fire in visions- Bill Weiss, Mary K. Baxter. Only the faintest glow is seen if anything at all. This underscores God's nature as goodness and light. The opposite of God is darkness, even for fires.
No, you have only given those scriptures that Jesus says hell and hell fire. In scripture and Strong's Exhausted Concordance the word Gehenna itself is not found, but only used in its descriptive use of the fires that burned there that became the graves/hell/pit that describes the word hell as being the place where many children who were sacrificed unto other gods and those who were imprisoned for their crimes were killed by crucifixion as their bodies where thrown into the fire that burned outside of Jerusalem in Gehenna. They have no part of the resurrection of the saints as their path from the hell/grave/pit will be that of standing in Gods great white throne judgement on the last day and will be cast into the lake of fire that is described in being in outer darkness as it is never given a literal location, but described as a place of torment and being separated from God forever.
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
Jim Parker
Member
What we call "light" is electro-magnetic radiation.
We also call "light" the spectrum of E-M we can sense with our eyes.
Not all fire gives off light in the visible spectrum. (Pure alcohol does not.)
Terms like "Outer darkness", "Hades" and "Gehenna" are understood by most commentators to refer to our concept of hell.
Hades (hell) is cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15
And, no, there is no evidence that anyone used the term "lake of fire" before John wrote the Apocalypse.
For the third time, do you believe that the NT was written in Greek? "Yes" or "no" is all I'm looking for here.
Jim Parker
Member
OOh! OOH! I KNOW! Pick ME!Yes. It was written in Greek.
2The earliest fragments in existence are in Greek.
http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/libraries-and-archives/treasure-of-the-month/news/magdalen-papyrus/
The oldest fragment of the NT, discovered in 2012, dates from the first century and is in Greek.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markdr...d-the-oldest-manuscript-of-the-new-testament/
"The oldest extant (Syriac) New Testament text appears to be the Syriac Sinaitic a collection of gospels in the Old Syriac textual tradition dated to the 4th century."
From: http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...arliest-dated-syriac-manuscripts-of-the-bible
Iakov the fool
2
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While I do appreciate the reply, I really need for_his_glory to answer.
Yes. It was written in Greek.
The earliest fragments in existence are in Greek.
http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/libraries-and-archives/treasure-of-the-month/news/magdalen-papyrus/
The oldest fragment of the NT, discovered in 2012, dates from the first century and is in Greek.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markdr...d-the-oldest-manuscript-of-the-new-testament/
"The oldest extant (Syriac) New Testament text appears to be the Syriac Sinaitic a collection of gospels in the Old Syriac textual tradition dated to the 4th century."
From: http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...arliest-dated-syriac-manuscripts-of-the-bible
Iakov the fool
Aramaic and Hebrew were the original languages that Jesus and his disciples spoke, but they also knew Greek. Greek was a more widespread language, especially in the Gentile nations so the NT was then written in Greek and then translated into many languages.
Good. Thank you. And English is obviously just one of those many languages. So you would agree then that "hell" is an English translation of the Greek, correct?