OK.
You are stating his spiritual birth was like an abortion.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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It’s not biblical!
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
You are stating his spiritual birth was like an abortion.
It isn't about any abortion.
It is about being born too late to walk with Jesus.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, because Paul said it was. And that's what made him unworthy to be called an Apostle.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Paul said it was like an abortion. He picked the Greek word to describe it as such. Not me. You're choosing to ignore it.
OK.
It doesn't make any sense, nor does it impact anything else from God, so believe what ever you want about 1 Cor 15:8.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Good grief, man, just look at the Greek word he used, lol.
I guess that depends on which "usage" you assign to your earlier Strong's quote.
1 Cor 15:7-8..."After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one who was aborted".
That makes no sense to me.
How does being born too late infer abortion?
Reply 3 to Miamited it’s not biblical # 230
Biblical Purgatory:
Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)
St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.
Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)
St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.
Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.
Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales commented:
It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.
Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:
ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)
Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)
Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):
Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)
Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:
These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)
The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:
Indulgences:
ndulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.
Jn 1:16
They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)
Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)
Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, they were attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!
If we sun after baptism we must repent and confess and receive God’s mercy but then we must do penance to expiate the temporal punishment due to God’s justice for sin and if fail to do so in this life God provides a means to do so by suffering in purgatory, and the prayers and penances of living saints can give relief to those in purgatory.
Penance:
Therefore, following the Master, every Christian must renounce himself, take up his own cross and participate in the sufferings of Christ. Thus transformed into the image of Christ's death, he is made capable of meditating on the glory of the resurrection. Furthermore, following the Master, he can no longer live for himself, but must live for Him who loves him and gave Himself for him. He will also have to live for his brethren, completing "in his flesh that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ...for in the benefit of his body, which is the church."
In addition, since the Church is closely linked to Christ, the penitence of the individual Christian also has an intimate relationship of its own with the whole ecclesial community. In fact, not only does he receive in the bosom of the Church through baptism the fundamental gift of "metanoia," but this gift is restored and reinvigorated in those members of the Body of Christ who have fallen into sin through the sacrament of penance. "Those who approach the sacrament of penance receive from the mercy of God forgiveness for offenses committed against Him and at the same time become reconciled with the Church on which they have inflicted a wound by sinning, and the Church cooperates in their conversion with charity, example and prayer." And in the Church, finally, the little acts of penitence imposed each time in the sacrament become a form of participation in a special way in the infinite expiation of Christ to join to the sacramental satisfaction itself every other action he performs, his every suffering and sorrow.
Thus the task of bearing in his body and soul the death of the Lord affects the whole life of the baptized person at every instant and in every aspect.
Penance is biblical!
Eph. 5:27.
Acts 2:38.
Acts 14:14;
1 Sam. 7:6; 1 Kings 21:20-21, 27; Jer. 3:3, 7, 9; John 1:2; 3:4-5.
1 Sam. 31:13; 2 Sam. 1:12; 3:35; Esther 3:15; 4:1, 16; Psalms 34:13; 2 Chron. 20:3.
1 Sam. 14:24; 2 Sam. 12:16, 22;
In reference cited above, need for interior penitence is clearly illustrated: 1 Sam. 7:3; Jer. 36:6-7; John 3:8;
28. Cf. Luke 2:37; Eccles. 31:12, 17-19; 37:32-34.
Matt. 6:17.
Heb. 10:1.
Mark 1:15.
Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:19
Eph. 1:23
Luke 5:8 and 7:36-50.
Rom. 6:3-11; Col. 2:11-15; 5:1-4.
Phil. 3:10-11; Rom. 8:17.
Rom. 6:10; 14:8; 2 Cor. 5:15; Phil 1:21.
Gal. 2:20;
Gal. 4:19; Phil. 3:21; 2 Tim. 2:11; Eph. 2:6; Col. 2:12 etc.; Rom. 8:17.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Cont.
Biblical Purgatory:
Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)
St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.
Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)
St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.
Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.
Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)
The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales commented:
It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.
Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:
ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)
Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)
Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):
Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)
Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:
These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)
The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:
Indulgences:
ndulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.
Jn 1:16
They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)
Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)
Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, they were attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!
If we sun after baptism we must repent and confess and receive God’s mercy but then we must do penance to expiate the temporal punishment due to God’s justice for sin and if fail to do so in this life God provides a means to do so by suffering in purgatory, and the prayers and penances of living saints can give relief to those in purgatory.
Penance:
Therefore, following the Master, every Christian must renounce himself, take up his own cross and participate in the sufferings of Christ. Thus transformed into the image of Christ's death, he is made capable of meditating on the glory of the resurrection. Furthermore, following the Master, he can no longer live for himself, but must live for Him who loves him and gave Himself for him. He will also have to live for his brethren, completing "in his flesh that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ...for in the benefit of his body, which is the church."
In addition, since the Church is closely linked to Christ, the penitence of the individual Christian also has an intimate relationship of its own with the whole ecclesial community. In fact, not only does he receive in the bosom of the Church through baptism the fundamental gift of "metanoia," but this gift is restored and reinvigorated in those members of the Body of Christ who have fallen into sin through the sacrament of penance. "Those who approach the sacrament of penance receive from the mercy of God forgiveness for offenses committed against Him and at the same time become reconciled with the Church on which they have inflicted a wound by sinning, and the Church cooperates in their conversion with charity, example and prayer." And in the Church, finally, the little acts of penitence imposed each time in the sacrament become a form of participation in a special way in the infinite expiation of Christ to join to the sacramental satisfaction itself every other action he performs, his every suffering and sorrow.
Thus the task of bearing in his body and soul the death of the Lord affects the whole life of the baptized person at every instant and in every aspect.
Penance is biblical!
Eph. 5:27.
Acts 2:38.
Acts 14:14;
1 Sam. 7:6; 1 Kings 21:20-21, 27; Jer. 3:3, 7, 9; John 1:2; 3:4-5.
1 Sam. 31:13; 2 Sam. 1:12; 3:35; Esther 3:15; 4:1, 16; Psalms 34:13; 2 Chron. 20:3.
1 Sam. 14:24; 2 Sam. 12:16, 22;
In reference cited above, need for interior penitence is clearly illustrated: 1 Sam. 7:3; Jer. 36:6-7; John 3:8;
28. Cf. Luke 2:37; Eccles. 31:12, 17-19; 37:32-34.
Matt. 6:17.
Heb. 10:1.
Mark 1:15.
Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:19
Eph. 1:23
Luke 5:8 and 7:36-50.
Rom. 6:3-11; Col. 2:11-15; 5:1-4.
Phil. 3:10-11; Rom. 8:17.
Rom. 6:10; 14:8; 2 Cor. 5:15; Phil 1:21.
Gal. 2:20;
Gal. 4:19; Phil. 3:21; 2 Tim. 2:11; Eph. 2:6; Col. 2:12 etc.; Rom. 8:17.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Cont.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:23 .....I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Why not I know Thy faith?
Reward according to youre faith?
Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Hope this helps
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:23 .....I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Why not I know Thy faith?
Reward according to youre faith?
Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Hope this helps
Hi donadams
As for the rest of your Scripture references, I've looked them all up before, and for the most part, just as I've explained above, they don't really say to me what they apparently say to a lot of the Catholic organization and those involved with it.
God bless,
Ted
Well, I'm pretty confident that the mention of fire and water in this verse isn't talking about something that is going to happen after anyone's death. So, and please fill me in if I'm wrong, I don't believe that either Origen or St. Ambrose are people that God has shown His approval of by putting their works among His. Anything that anyone says, apart from the Scriptures, for me, is highly suspect as to its truth. I don't have any way of knowing whether Origen or St. Ambrose were ever approved of God to tell us what His word says. Sorry.
As for the rest of your Scripture references, I've looked them all up before, and for the most part, just as I've explained above, they don't really say to me what they apparently say to a lot of the Catholic organization and those involved with it.
God bless,
Ted
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Don,
I have a big problem with purgatory for the following 2 reasons:
1. It makes the sacrifice of Jesus be insufficient.
2. It makes Christians feel that even if they sin, they will spend some time in purgatory and then go to heaven.
It just worries me a little that it might send some to eternal separation from God because they're depending on purgatory. I don't see anything that Jesus ever stated that taught an intermediate place.
See John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Also see Luke 16:19...THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
I don't see an intermediary place there either.
And 1 Cor 3:1-15 is not about purgatory...we can go through it if you wish.
No impeccability is not capable of sin
Infallibility is not capable of teaching error
The church is governed by men, men are sinners
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Thanks
Both things that a human is incapable of.
The that is the only church and only head and the others are sects of the tradition of men unless established by Christ thanks
What does cathedral mean?
You did say you accept scripture right?
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Where is it written?
Where in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible? Thanks
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Really?
I don't know what this has to do with my explanation...but OK:
1. : a church that is the official seat of a diocesan bishop. : something that resembles or suggests a cathedral (as in size or importance) a cathedral of business.
The "church" is governed by God.
Your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 makes 1 John 1:7,9 a lie.
It is those who walk in darkness that cannot say they have no sin, but those in the light, God, can say it because there is no sin in God.