It’s not biblical!

[Jethro Bodine]

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one who was aborted".
That makes no sense to me.
How does being born too late infer abortion?

That's my point. It doesn't. The word Paul used to describe his birth infers abnormality of birth, not lateness of birth.

See, you have it backwards. You should be asking, "How does likening one's birth to an abortion infer being born too late?" In light of the definition of the word Paul uses to describe his birth that is the better question. You have to ask yourself what having a birth like an abortion means in regard to untimeliness of birth. Because in terms of untimeliness abortions are an early disruptive removal of a baby from the womb, not a late one.

This is why I like the NIV's use of the phrase 'abnormally born' in 1 Corinthians 15:8. The significance is in the kind of birth Paul had, not necessarily the timeliness of it. The forceful disruptive nature of his spiritual birth on the road to Damascus and the life of persecution he lived up to then is why he considers himself not worthy to be called an Apostle.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You did say you accept scripture right?

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Where is it written?
Where in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible? Thanks

Deuteronomy 8:3.
What are you trying to prove?

 

[donadams]

I never said Christ was to be sacrificed again and again.

There is only one sacrifice and it is eternal. Thanks

It is who by grave sins crucify him again and again . Thanks

 

[donadams]

Hi donadams

Well, I'm pretty confident that the mention of fire and water in this verse isn't talking about something that is going to happen after anyone's death. So, and please fill me in if I'm wrong, I don't believe that either Origen or St. Ambrose are people that God has shown His approval of by putting their works among His. Anything that anyone says, apart from the Scriptures, for me, is highly suspect as to its truth. I don't have any way of knowing whether Origen or St. Ambrose were ever approved of God to tell us what His word says. Sorry.

As for the rest of your Scripture references, I've looked them all up before, and for the most part, just as I've explained above, they don't really say to me what they apparently say to a lot of the Catholic organization and those involved with it.

God bless,
Ted

Do you believe Isaiah the prophet or only what he wrote? Isa 53:1
Do you believe the apostles and the authority of Christ in His apostles or only what they wrote?
Most apostles never wrote anything some desired not to write but to come in person.
2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full. Thanks

 

[donadams]

Hi Don,
I have a big problem with purgatory for the following 2 reasons:

1. It makes the sacrifice of Jesus be insufficient.

2. It makes Christians feel that even if they sin, they will spend some time in purgatory and then go to heaven.

It just worries me a little that it might send some to eternal separation from God because they're depending on purgatory. I don't see anything that Jesus ever stated that taught an intermediate place.
See John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Also see Luke 16:19...THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
I don't see an intermediary place there either.

And 1 Cor 3:1-15 is not about purgatory...we can go through it if you wish.

If we sin and are baptized all sin is washed away, if we sin after baptism we must repent and confess, and our sins shall be forgiven we receive mercy but we must participate in satisfying the divine justice outraged by our sin, hence we do penance, and if we do not make complete satisfaction God provides a means to do so in purgatory, but purgatory does not save us, those in purgatory are already saved by the grace of God, and it’s all by the grace of God purchased by the life death and resurrection of Christ, it’s all his infinite merits Jn 1:16-17

Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom “purgatory” or Sheoul, cos heaven was closed since the fall of Adam and then opened by Christ, the holy of holies represents heaven and the veil in the temple represents the fact that heaven was closed until it was torn from top to bottom hope this helps

 

[donadams]

Both things that a human is incapable of.

Jn 14:6

 

[donadams]

Really?
I don't know what this has to do with my explanation...but OK:

1. : a church that is the official seat of a diocesan bishop. : something that resembles or suggests a cathedral (as in size or importance) a cathedral of business.

I bishop to be obeyed? Does Christ command this obedience?

 

[dwb001]

Jn 14:6

Relevance?

 

[GodsGrace]

If we sin and are baptized all sin is washed away, if we sin after baptism we must repent and confess, and our sins shall be forgiven we receive mercy but we must participate in satisfying the divine justice outraged by our sin, hence we do penance, and if we do not make complete satisfaction God provides a means to do so in purgatory, but purgatory does not save us, those in purgatory are already saved by the grace of God, and it’s all by the grace of God purchased by the life death and resurrection of Christ, it’s all his infinite merits Jn 1:16-17

Yes, I know the above.
What I said is that it makes Christ's sacrifice seem insufficient.
Note what you said:
If we sin after baptism we must confess our sin and so penance.
Didn't Jesus die as our atonement?
Didn't HE pay the penance due for our sins?
If He did NOT, then it means His sacrifice was insufficient.
(and that's why we would have to continue to do penance).
The NT states that Jesus died once and for all, He was the last sacrifice.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins,

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom “purgatory” or Sheoul, cos heaven was closed since the fall of Adam and then opened by Christ, the holy of holies represents heaven and the veil in the temple represents the fact that heaven was closed until it was torn from top to bottom hope this helps

I agree with everything you've said above
except
Abraham's Bossom was a place of comfort while they waited for the opening of heaven.
It was not a place of torment as purgatory is.
Actually, Abraham's Bossom was paradise.

Sheoul, if I remember correctly is just the place of the dead.
Abraham's Bossom, in Hebrew, was called Hades ( I might be wrong).

In any case, it was definitely a place of comfort and could not have been purgatory.

 

[donadams]

The "church" is governed by God.
Your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 makes 1 John 1:7,9 a lie.
It is those who walk in darkness that cannot say they have no sin, but those in the light, God, can say it because there is no sin in God.

God in Christ founded the church then ascended to heaven leaving the apostles in charge Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20 Lk 22:29
Thanks

 

[jasonc]

Yes, I know the above.
What I said is that it makes Christ's sacrifice seem insufficient.
Note what you said:
If we sin after baptism we must confess our sin and so penance.
Didn't Jesus die as our atonement?
Didn't HE pay the penance due for our sins?
If He did NOT, then it means His sacrifice was insufficient.
(and that's why we would have to continue to do penance).
The NT states that Jesus died once and for all, He was the last sacrifice.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins,

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.



I agree with everything you've said above
except
Abraham's Bossom was a place of comfort while they waited for the opening of heaven.
It was not a place of torment as purgatory is.
Actually, Abraham's Bossom was paradise.

Sheoul, if I remember correctly is just the place of the dead.
Abraham's Bossom, in Hebrew, was called Hades ( I might be wrong).

In any case, it was definitely a place of comfort and could not have been purgatory.

Sheol has two levels one for the righteous the other for the wicked

 

[GodsGrace]

Sheol has two levels one for the righteous the other for the wicked

Does the place for the righteous have a name?
I think it's paradise. Can't remember.

 

[jasonc]

Does the place for the righteous have a name?
I think it's paradise. Can't remember.

Gan Eden ,but that's another thread

 

[donadams]

Deuteronomy 8:3.
What are you trying to prove?

We have 7 more books and more chapters in Esther and Daniel in our bibles

I would send a list of New Testament references to them but they said don’t make long posts

 

[GodsGrace]

We have 7 more books and more chapters in Esther and Daniel in our bibles

I would send a list of New Testament references to them but they said don’t make long posts

He knows what they are,, most of us do.

 

[GodsGrace]

I bishop to be obeyed? Does Christ command this obedience?

I never saw this...

Is the Bishop to be obeyed.
Priests and Deacons are required to obey him.
Me...
In what way would I need to obey?
I don't have a spiritual advisor.

 

[donadams]

If want a reference to these New Testament quotes of the
Septuagint, seventy! LXX
Or deuterocanonical
It’s in the Bible our only authority in a post by mungo a

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We have 7 more books and more chapters in Esther and Daniel in our bibles

I would send a list of New Testament references to them but they said don’t make long posts

I suspect you thought Jesus was quoting something extra-Biblical that showed 'scripture alone' was wrong.

 

[donadams]

Relevance?

Christ is the truth. The church is the pillar of truth.

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 Jn 15:1-5 eph 4:4 eph 5:24 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Yes, I know the above.
What I said is that it makes Christ's sacrifice seem insufficient.
Note what you said:
If we sin after baptism we must confess our sin and so penance.
Didn't Jesus die as our atonement?
Didn't HE pay the penance due for our sins?
If He did NOT, then it means His sacrifice was insufficient.
(and that's why we would have to continue to do penance).
The NT states that Jesus died once and for all, He was the last sacrifice.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins,

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

It we are members of Christ united by grace, we follow Him Matt 16:24 Phil 1:29 1 pet 4:1 heb 12:4 Col 1:24

I agree with everything you've said above
except
Abraham's Bossom was a place of comfort while they waited for the opening of heaven.
It was not a place of torment as purgatory is.
Actually, Abraham's Bossom was paradise.

Sheoul, if I remember correctly is just the place of the dead.
Abraham's Bossom, in Hebrew, was called Hades ( I might be wrong).

In any case, it was definitely a place of comfort and could not have been purgatory.

Purg. Purify heb 12:14
All graces come from Christ and His sacrifice Jn 1:16-17 thanks