James 2 And OSAS

[dadof10]

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

 

[Elijah674]

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

It is the end result that makes one Mature to save.
Heb. 11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.

And later on it says...
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

--Elijah

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

I believe you misunderstand.
The example is Abraham and God.
Abraham obeyed God.
God saw this and called him righteous.
This is between Abraham and God whether anyone else sees it or not.
We may be able to see good works of people but ultimately, whether or not they are saved, is between each person and God.
Thus, a person could fool us with his good works but he doesn't fool God.
Such a person returns to his vomit.

A better passage for OSAS is Romans chapter 5.

 

[Deborah13]

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place".

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

Hi dad, just a short comment. I know you freely say you like to argue and I admire your frankness in that.

One thing I notice with people who want to refute OSAS put ALL people who believe OSAS in the same group. In other words they want others to think that ALL OSAS people believe what I have quoted from you.

I emphatically state that that is NOT what I believe and there are others of the 'free grace' 'unmerited favor' who do not believe that either.
What you state about "never were saved" all though that may be true in some cases, not ALL cases.

Personally, I hold that the Lord will hold tight to that person as far as their salvation goes, but He will allow them to backslide or fall if they so choose. However, He will work the circumstances in their life that they will see His goodness and repent or He will take them out of this world so that they do not loose their souls.
"some may have to be starving and wallowing in pig poop before they swallow their pride and go home". For some reason the "good" Christian just gets really upset about that, why can't they rejoice in the fact that the Lord will accomplish His work in the believer?

Blessing Deb

 

[Butch5]

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

Hi Dado10,

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion. I have seen some who hold this doctrine argue to absurdities rather than face the idea that this doctrine is not Biblical. This suggests to me that there is an emotional connection to the doctrine. I suspect that it is a fear that one may have fallen away that drives one to this doctrine for a sense of security. I mean, there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is turning into a rehash of the previous thread.
We need to stick to the OP or it's a waste of time.

 

[MarkT]

He acted on faith. He proved himself to God that he was a friend and not an enemy. God could trust him. That's what justified means in this case. He was tested and he was proven. To use Jesus' imagery, it would be like poring wine into a wineskin to see if it leaks. Abraham's wineskin didn't leak. So God pored his righteousness into him.

 

[francisdesales]

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

Hi Dado10,

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion. I have seen some who hold this doctrine argue to absurdities rather than face the idea that this doctrine is not Biblical. This suggests to me that there is an emotional connection to the doctrine. I suspect that it is a fear that one may have fallen away that drives one to this doctrine for a sense of security. I mean, there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says salvation cannot be lost.

I agree on your take about emotionalism. Feelings drive this doctrine. And what a "sweet" doctrine it is. Get your "heaven card" and then you can do whatever you want, since salvation cannot be lost.

"OK, now I can get on with my life, got heaven taken care of, check it off the list... God owes me heaven no matter what"

It just doesn't pass the Scripture test and all of those many passages about good deeds and perseverance in faith and love to attain heaven. There is very little attempt to explain those Scriptures, they are just flat out ignored.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

I believe you misunderstand.
The example is Abraham and God.
Abraham obeyed God.
God saw this and called him righteous.
This is between Abraham and God whether anyone else sees it or not.
We may be able to see good works of people but ultimately, whether or not they are saved, is between each person and God.
Thus, a person could fool us with his good works but he doesn't fool God.
Such a person returns to his vomit.

A better passage for OSAS is Romans chapter 5.

James is indeed about being justified in God's eyes by one's good deeds. There is nothing here about returning to the vomit. The point of James 2 is AGAINST the mindset of OSAS!

Can "THAT" faith save? No it cannot... Only active faith can save. OSAS is not about active faith, it is about once upon a time faith...

 

[Guest]

Don't you guys ever get tired of disagreeing, just wondering..

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

I believe you misunderstand.
The example is Abraham and God.
Abraham obeyed God.
God saw this and called him righteous.
This is between Abraham and God whether anyone else sees it or not.
We may be able to see good works of people but ultimately, whether or not they are saved, is between each person and God.
Thus, a person could fool us with his good works but he doesn't fool God.
Such a person returns to his vomit.

A better passage for OSAS is Romans chapter 5.

James is indeed about being justified in God's eyes by one's good deeds. There is nothing here about returning to the vomit. The point of James 2 is AGAINST the mindset of OSAS!

Can "THAT" faith save? No it cannot... Only active faith can save. OSAS is not about active faith, it is about once upon a time faith...

Your attitude is always negative.
I have nothing to say to you.

 

[Danus]

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion.

I agree on your take about emotionalism.

I agree. There does seem to be this odd, "Emotionalism" tied to the idea of being saved, and experiencing Jesus the way those OSAS people do. It's almost weird; Like these people seem driven by some emotion that has taken over them. Maybe if OSAS people would just take their "heart" out of the scripture and just use their heads they see that they need to start reading the bible in fear and understanding it more in a literal way.

Does that about convey what you mean with your concern about people seeming emotional?
Would passion be considered emotional? What about Joy? Or Love? Do people who do not hold to themselves being saved, but rather hoping they will be, do they feel emotion? Are they passionate towards God, or do they not feel anything when reading the scripture?

 

[jasoncran]

Joe, uhm don't assume that the perserverance types here actually know that doctrine. the idea of this is that saint prays and repents and if he did repent, because God is the one whom keeps the person they shall produce fruit as evidence of the conversion sooner or later. if they don't they they were likely never saved to begin with. these do believe in an active faith.

 

[Butch5]

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion.

I agree on your take about emotionalism.

I agree. There does seem to be this odd, "Emotionalism" tied to the idea of being saved, and experiencing Jesus the way those OSAS people do. It's almost weird; Like these people seem driven by some emotion that has taken over them. Maybe if OSAS people would just take their "heart" out of the scripture and just use their heads they see that they need to start reading the bible in fear and understanding it more in a literal way.

Does that about convey what you mean with your concern about people seeming emotional?
Would passion be considered emotional? What about Joy? Or Love? Do people who do not hold to themselves being saved, but rather hoping they will be, do they feel emotion? Are they passionate towards God, or do they not feel anything when reading the scripture?

Hi Danus,

It could be passion but I don't think it is. Even one who is passionate will usually acknowledge what is and is not logical. Ax I said, I've spoken to many on this issue. For instance I have friend who used to not be OSAS he began to question whether or not he was saved because he didn't "feel" saved everyday. He eventually turned to OSAS. One day he came across Hebrews 5:9 which says, speaking of Christ, He became eternal salvation to those who obey Him. He asked me what that verse meant and I said, it mean what it says. I saw him a few days later and he told me that he had spoken to his pastor about that verse and was told that it was like a law, like when Jesus clamed the sea the Scriptures say even the wind and waves obey Him. He said the believe just somehow obeys because it is this Law. I just kind of shook my head. This was absurd, yet emotionally he was willing to accept it rather than deal with his uncertainty about not "felling" saved everyday. I don't thing it's passion that drives the doctrine, I think it's fear. I mean how many times have we heard people say you shouldn't base your doctrine on one verse of Scripture? I've heard it many times and yet OSAS doesn't even have a single verse of Scripture to support it, it's simply based on inferences.

 

[Butch5]

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

Hi Dado10,

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion. I have seen some who hold this doctrine argue to absurdities rather than face the idea that this doctrine is not Biblical. This suggests to me that there is an emotional connection to the doctrine. I suspect that it is a fear that one may have fallen away that drives one to this doctrine for a sense of security. I mean, there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says salvation cannot be lost.

I agree on your take about emotionalism. Feelings drive this doctrine. And what a "sweet" doctrine it is. Get your "heaven card" and then you can do whatever you want, since salvation cannot be lost.

"OK, now I can get on with my life, got heaven taken care of, check it off the list... God owes me heaven no matter what"

It just doesn't pass the Scripture test and all of those many passages about good deeds and perseverance in faith and love to attain heaven. There is very little attempt to explain those Scriptures, they are just flat out ignored.

Regards

I do believe it is emotionally driven for many who hold the doctrine.

 

[dadof10]

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

I believe you misunderstand.
The example is Abraham and God.
Abraham obeyed God.
God saw this and called him righteous.
This is between Abraham and God whether anyone else sees it or not.
We may be able to see good works of people but ultimately, whether or not they are saved, is between each person and God.
Thus, a person could fool us with his good works but he doesn't fool God.
Such a person returns to his vomit.

A better passage for OSAS is Romans chapter 5.

I don't think I'm the one who is misunderstanding the text. Whereas I agree that we are "showing" God our faith when we do good deeds, I disagree this is what James' point is. Here is the text:

"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder."

I don't think it could be any clearer. According to James it is possible to show faith. What "kind" of faith?

"Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. "

The "kind" of faith Abraham has. I don't see anywhere in this text James making the case that ONLY God sees Abraham, therefore we are ONLY showing our faith to God. He says "you see" here also, which points to showing to us humans, not God alone.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

This "you see" seems to be more in the context of "you understand", like "do you want to BE SHOWN, oh shallow man..." above, not "you are being proven to". The other instances are definitely "you are being proven to".

James is obviously saying that we can demonstrate our true faith to others and they can actually "see" it in us. Once this happens, if this person backslides, OSAS is proved false.

 

[dadof10]

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place".

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

Hi dad, just a short comment. I know you freely say you like to argue and I admire your frankness in that.

Shhhh...Don't tell anyone. ;)

One thing I notice with people who want to refute OSAS put ALL people who believe OSAS in the same group. In other words they want others to think that ALL OSAS people believe what I have quoted from you.

I know. That's the reason I put "IF you hold OSAS and this interpretation..." in the OP.

I emphatically state that that is NOT what I believe and there are others of the 'free grace' 'unmerited favor' who do not believe that either.
What you state about "never were saved" all though that may be true in some cases, not ALL cases.

OK, I agree. I think that God draws all people to Himself, but He also gives us the free will to reject Him. Some repent over and over again throughout their lives. I know I do, because I SIN over and over. I believe sin breaks communion with God and I must repent when I sin.

My question to you is what's the alternative to "never were saved"? Do you think "some" BELIEVERS never were saved and some repent again, over and over?

Personally, I hold that the Lord will hold tight to that person as far as their salvation goes, but He will allow them to backslide or fall if they so choose. However, He will work the circumstances in their life that they will see His goodness and repent or He will take them out of this world so that they do not loose their souls.

I believe that too. What you are describing sounds a lot like free will. God "allows" us to reject Him, while always "working" for us to return to Him.

"some may have to be starving and wallowing in pig poop before they swallow their pride and go home". For some reason the "good" Christian just gets really upset about that, why can't they rejoice in the fact that the Lord will accomplish His work in the believer?

Blessing Deb

I, for one, do rejoice in repentance, no matter how many times a person does it in his (or her) life.

 

[dadof10]

Don't you guys ever get tired of disagreeing, just wondering..

I disagree. We do get tired of disagreeing.

 

[Danus]

I've discussed this topic with many and it seems to me that it is not the Scriptures that drive this doctrine but rather emotion.

I agree on your take about emotionalism.

I agree. There does seem to be this odd, "Emotionalism" tied to the idea of being saved, and experiencing Jesus the way those OSAS people do. It's almost weird; Like these people seem driven by some emotion that has taken over them. Maybe if OSAS people would just take their "heart" out of the scripture and just use their heads they see that they need to start reading the bible in fear and understanding it more in a literal way.

Does that about convey what you mean with your concern about people seeming emotional?
Would passion be considered emotional? What about Joy? Or Love? Do people who do not hold to themselves being saved, but rather hoping they will be, do they feel emotion? Are they passionate towards God, or do they not feel anything when reading the scripture?

Hi Danus,

It could be passion but I don't think it is. Even one who is passionate will usually acknowledge what is and is not logical. Ax I said, I've spoken to many on this issue. For instance I have friend who used to not be OSAS he began to question whether or not he was saved because he didn't "feel" saved everyday. He eventually turned to OSAS. One day he came across Hebrews 5:9 which says, speaking of Christ, He became eternal salvation to those who obey Him. He asked me what that verse meant and I said, it mean what it says. I saw him a few days later and he told me that he had spoken to his pastor about that verse and was told that it was like a law, like when Jesus clamed the sea the Scriptures say even the wind and waves obey Him. He said the believe just somehow obeys because it is this Law. I just kind of shook my head. This was absurd, yet emotionally he was willing to accept it rather than deal with his uncertainty about not "felling" saved everyday. I don't thing it's passion that drives the doctrine, I think it's fear. I mean how many times have we heard people say you shouldn't base your doctrine on one verse of Scripture? I've heard it many times and yet OSAS doesn't even have a single verse of Scripture to support it, it's simply based on inferences.

I'm sorry Butch. I think I've wasted your time.

 

[dadof10]

Joe, uhm don't assume that the perserverance types here actually know that doctrine. the idea of this is that saint prays and repents and if he did repent, because God is the one whom keeps the person they shall produce fruit as evidence of the conversion sooner or later. if they don't they they were likely never saved to begin with. these do believe in an active faith.

Are there any examples of people you have met who "produce fruit as evidence of the conversion", then have returned to their former life of disobedience?