James 2 And OSAS

[dadof10]

I agree. There does seem to be this odd, "Emotionalism" tied to the idea of being saved, and experiencing Jesus the way those OSAS people do. It's almost weird; Like these people seem driven by some emotion that has taken over them. Maybe if OSAS people would just take their "heart" out of the scripture and just use their heads they see that they need to start reading the bible in fear and understanding it more in a literal way.

Does that about convey what you mean with your concern about people seeming emotional?
Would passion be considered emotional? What about Joy? Or Love? Do people who do not hold to themselves being saved, but rather hoping they will be, do they feel emotion? Are they passionate towards God, or do they not feel anything when reading the scripture?

Hi Danus,

It could be passion but I don't think it is. Even one who is passionate will usually acknowledge what is and is not logical. Ax I said, I've spoken to many on this issue. For instance I have friend who used to not be OSAS he began to question whether or not he was saved because he didn't "feel" saved everyday. He eventually turned to OSAS. One day he came across Hebrews 5:9 which says, speaking of Christ, He became eternal salvation to those who obey Him. He asked me what that verse meant and I said, it mean what it says. I saw him a few days later and he told me that he had spoken to his pastor about that verse and was told that it was like a law, like when Jesus clamed the sea the Scriptures say even the wind and waves obey Him. He said the believe just somehow obeys because it is this Law. I just kind of shook my head. This was absurd, yet emotionally he was willing to accept it rather than deal with his uncertainty about not "felling" saved everyday. I don't thing it's passion that drives the doctrine, I think it's fear. I mean how many times have we heard people say you shouldn't base your doctrine on one verse of Scripture? I've heard it many times and yet OSAS doesn't even have a single verse of Scripture to support it, it's simply based on inferences.

I'm sorry Butch. I think I've wasted your time.

Butch, I think the first paragraph in Danus' post was sarcasm, although it wasn't very clear. The second seems to contradict the first. :dunno

 

[Deborah13]

My question to you is what's the alternative to "never were saved"? Do you think "some" BELIEVERS never were saved and some repent again, over and over

I think there may be people who have said the "sinners prayer" under pressure or maybe at some type of an evangelists meeting but they did not consider what they were doing. They walk away and go no further because it was a head thing not a heart thing, you know what I mean.

Repentance in the true sense comes from the heart. The Lord has touched a person with His grace and His Word has given the faith to speak to the heart. That person understands that they have sinned against their Lord, their Creator. They understand the blood Jesus was shed for them and that only by entering into a relationship with Him can they be forgiven and saved. I believe this is repentance onto salvation and we are justified by Him and His righteousness.

But after that we still repent. When we repent after we are saved it is the same and yet different. We don't repent in order to be saved, we already are. But we still have things that we do that are displeasing to God. He doesn't reject us and we have not rejected Him. We still need to repent (change our mind) about whatever the problem is and get into agreement with God. The Word says that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repent so again we see that it is a heart thing first. We are sorry and often ashamed that we have displeased our loving Father and so we apologize and ask the Lord to help us be what He wants to be and Thank Him for His patience and help. It is our own rebellion or stubbornness sometimes that can cause us to not repent. God has not turned His back on us but we don't want to look at Him. If we will look, we see His goodness and we are lead to repent many, many times, over and over again throughout our lives. But it is OK, that is exactly what He wants us to do. But we don't lose our salvation every time we sin. The Lord is long-suffering towards us, He is kind, He understands we are human and that we are tempted. Remember He was to, He understands.

What you are describing sounds a lot like free will. God "allows" us to reject Him, while always "working" for us to return to Him.

I certainly do believe in free will. If we don't have free will then after we are saved we would Never sin. I mean we must have free will or we would always be doing what is God's will and surely it is not His will that we sin. These scriptures clearly say that we need to reconcile ourselves to God. God reconciles us to Himself through Jesus.
2 Corinth. 5:18-19
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

IMO, the only way we could reject Him, would be to reject Him. This would be to no longer to believe at all that He is our only salvation, the Son of God, God come in the flesh, raised from the died, etc. That is rejection. No longer believing in Him.

Sorry to make this so long....I just remember this. There is a man that hadn't thought about a friend in awhile and he got an real desire to get in touch with him. He had no idea where he was but he knew where his wife's parents lived. In the phone directory there were many listing of that last name but he started calling each number. About the 20th call a woman answered the phone and he said he was looking for "so and so" she asked who he was and he gave her his name. She immediately hung up the phone. He thought well that went well and he was puzzled. A few minutes later the phone rang it was the woman. She told him that she and her husband (his mentor) had come on such hard times that her husband had totally given up and no longer believed there was a God even. She said that just before he had called she had been talking to God " IF you are real, then why don't you send someone to minister to us. We served you in the ministry for 25 yrs....etc. Why won't you send someone to help us" That was when the phone rang. She was so overcome that she just hung up.
The man who made the call said that he know the Lord had put that strong desire in his heart to find this man. He was able to minister to them. Both the wife and the husband were restored.

This is the kind of things I believe the Lord does for His children who have fallen and sometimes very seriously. But He says He never will forsake us.

 

[farouk]

Deborah13:

Yes, believing in the Lord Jesus is far more than the 'mental assent' of the 'repeat this prayer after me' approach, which almost reduces it to the 'click on the screen to accept terms and conditions' level. There needs to be nothing less than a true work of the Spirit in the heart of the sinner, which is of course what being born again really is (John 3).

Blessings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

James is obviously saying that we can demonstrate our true faith to others and they can actually "see" it in us. Once this happens, if this person backslides, OSAS is proved false.

You are consistent with your definition of OSAS.
You don't see things as I see them.
Let me explain.

A man was a homosexual, got saved, and was on fire for Jesus.
After 5 or 6 years, he was growing into one of the leaders of the church.
Then one day, he told everyone he was going to live with his ex-boyfriend and left the church.
He found a church that excepted his lifestyle.
I never heard from him again.
Was he really saved?

Only God knows a man's heart. At some time in his life, he may repent and come back to God, such as the prodigal son.
Jesus told the story of the lost sheep, he left all the others to find the one that was lost.
This is OSAS belief.
If we truly belong to God but become overcome by the flesh or the temptations of the devil, then God will persue us and bring us back.
He will not lose any of his sheep.

Now at this point, you need to dispute my interpretation of OSAS or possibly consider I may be on the right track.

 

[francisdesales]

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

I believe you misunderstand.
The example is Abraham and God.
Abraham obeyed God.
God saw this and called him righteous.
This is between Abraham and God whether anyone else sees it or not.
We may be able to see good works of people but ultimately, whether or not they are saved, is between each person and God.
Thus, a person could fool us with his good works but he doesn't fool God.
Such a person returns to his vomit.

A better passage for OSAS is Romans chapter 5.

James is indeed about being justified in God's eyes by one's good deeds. There is nothing here about returning to the vomit. The point of James 2 is AGAINST the mindset of OSAS!

Can "THAT" faith save? No it cannot... Only active faith can save. OSAS is not about active faith, it is about once upon a time faith...

Your attitude is always negative.
I have nothing to say to you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. My attitude is negative vs OSAS. Since the topics of late have been on OSAS, it may appear that I am always negative, but I certainly am not negative towards everyone and on every subject.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

James is obviously saying that we can demonstrate our true faith to others and they can actually "see" it in us. Once this happens, if this person backslides, OSAS is proved false.

You are consistent with your definition of OSAS.
You don't see things as I see them.
Let me explain.

A man was a homosexual, got saved, and was on fire for Jesus.
After 5 or 6 years, he was growing into one of the leaders of the church.
Then one day, he told everyone he was going to live with his ex-boyfriend and left the church.
He found a church that excepted his lifestyle.
I never heard from him again.
Was he really saved?

Only God knows a man's heart. At some time in his life, he may repent and come back to God, such as the prodigal son.
Jesus told the story of the lost sheep, he left all the others to find the one that was lost.
This is OSAS belief.
If we truly belong to God but become overcome by the flesh or the temptations of the devil, then God will persue us and bring us back.
He will not lose any of his sheep.

Now at this point, you need to dispute my interpretation of OSAS or possibly consider I may be on the right track.

what is at issue here is the presumption that we are one of the sheep. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" has been called by the Father.

Thus, OSAS is pointless. Even from your description, what sort of "guarantee" is present if in the future, you may have never been saved to begin with???

Those who have been baptized have been saved. That should never be doubted, no matter what happens in the future. Otherwise, we can never know if God is actually at work in our lives if we even doubt our initial salvation.

We need to think like Paul, having hope and not presuming that God owes us anything.

Regards

 

[Butch5]

I agree. There does seem to be this odd, "Emotionalism" tied to the idea of being saved, and experiencing Jesus the way those OSAS people do. It's almost weird; Like these people seem driven by some emotion that has taken over them. Maybe if OSAS people would just take their "heart" out of the scripture and just use their heads they see that they need to start reading the bible in fear and understanding it more in a literal way.

Does that about convey what you mean with your concern about people seeming emotional?
Would passion be considered emotional? What about Joy? Or Love? Do people who do not hold to themselves being saved, but rather hoping they will be, do they feel emotion? Are they passionate towards God, or do they not feel anything when reading the scripture?

Hi Danus,

It could be passion but I don't think it is. Even one who is passionate will usually acknowledge what is and is not logical. Ax I said, I've spoken to many on this issue. For instance I have friend who used to not be OSAS he began to question whether or not he was saved because he didn't "feel" saved everyday. He eventually turned to OSAS. One day he came across Hebrews 5:9 which says, speaking of Christ, He became eternal salvation to those who obey Him. He asked me what that verse meant and I said, it mean what it says. I saw him a few days later and he told me that he had spoken to his pastor about that verse and was told that it was like a law, like when Jesus clamed the sea the Scriptures say even the wind and waves obey Him. He said the believe just somehow obeys because it is this Law. I just kind of shook my head. This was absurd, yet emotionally he was willing to accept it rather than deal with his uncertainty about not "felling" saved everyday. I don't thing it's passion that drives the doctrine, I think it's fear. I mean how many times have we heard people say you shouldn't base your doctrine on one verse of Scripture? I've heard it many times and yet OSAS doesn't even have a single verse of Scripture to support it, it's simply based on inferences.

I'm sorry Butch. I think I've wasted your time.

Butch, I think the first paragraph in Danus' post was sarcasm, although it wasn't very clear. The second seems to contradict the first. :dunno

Hi Dadof10,

Yes, I thought so to. I thought I remembered Danus holding to the doctrine of OSAS. This isn't really an issue of Scripture as much as history. We can trace the doctrine of OSAS to it's origin which is not first century Christianity but rather the 1500's 1500 years after Jesus and the apostles brought the Gospel. Here is a post I posted on another board on this topic the other day.

It's amazing that this doctrine of OSAS even exists. One can easily determine that it is not Biblical. All one needs to do is look at history. This doctrine didn't appear in the church until the 1500's. That's 1500 years after Jesus and the apostles taught. For 1500 years no one in the church taught OSAS, then after the Reformation is suddenly appears. I'm sorry guys a 600 year old doctrine simply isn't Biblical.

I don't care what verse you want to site or how you want to interpret it, the fact is that the doctrine doesn't appear in the church until the 1500's. No matter what verse you want to site it will not change that fact. The Doctrine of OSAS was, however, refuted by the earliest Christians, because it was one of the Gnostic doctrines.

 

[smaller]

what is at issue here is the presumption that we are one of the sheep. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" has been called by the Father.

Thus, OSAS is pointless.

Using that as a cop out on OSAS doesn't compute as you have been led to think.

EVERYONE works iniquity, so presumably nobody will be making it to heaven using your 'THUS,' will they?

lol

s

 

[Danus]

Every time I see these threads, I see the same believers in the same shape. Those who know they are saved and can speak to it, and those that don't, and can not. BUT, the difference is that those who can not call themselves saved, those who can only hope they are saved, but they do not know, are always comparing themselves to those who say they are saved.

For the sake of argument, we'll label the first group, those who say they are saved, OSAS, but we need a label for the second group, those who do not know their own salvation, and say they can not know if they are saved or not. SO I propose this. MSMN. That stands for Might be saved, Maybe Not.

We'll call these two labeled groups "Christian Believers" . However, I further propose a third group, one to identify the people who are not Christian believers, and who could care less about this whole issue of salvation. We'll call them DKDC, and that stands for Don't Know, Don't Care.

SO we have three groups.
1. OSAS, People who believe they are saved and held in Gods grace to the end.
2.MSMN. People who do not know if they are saved or not. Sometimes they feel saved, sometimes not.
3.DKDC. People who do not know they are saved and don't care.

We don't see too many DKDC people in churches. They may visit from time to time, but They don't have a connection to God. They admit it. They will tell you straight up, that God is not real, it's all made up stories. They don't get it, don't care to get it. They just live their life as they wish and in the end they die, or they may be part of some other religion entirely. When they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others.

We do however see MSMN people in church. Like the DKDC folks, they too have no idea of their salvation. And like the DKDC people, when they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others, but they differ from the DKDC people in that they do seem to care if they are saved or not, but what they don't like, what they can't stand, are OSAS people running around saying they are saved, and that Christ saved them. DKDC people feel the same way about OSAS people, but for different reasons.

They (MSMN) people, don't like OSAS people because OSAS people point to God as the one who saved them. MSMN people point to themselves and then they compare themselves to others. They speak of good deeds, and works, because that's all they think they have. Faith, does not enter into it for them, and so they compensate in desperation for that which they desire, (Salvation). Jesus spoke of these people in many of his parables.

The most obvious; Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

In this parable we see the MSMN talking himself up; "Look how great I am lord! Look at all I do, and how righteous I am"! Verse 9 points this out in descriptive narrative. "9 "9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else." Notice it does not say "Confident of their own salvation", it says Confident of their own "RIGHTEOUSNESS". their own ability to be worthy of God.

That is what people who who don't know is they are saved, and who can only hope they are in the end have; Their own righteousness. And so, they warn others, but they also compare themselves to others because deep inside, what they won't tell you, what they relish the most, is the idea that they are better than others,and therefore more worthy. They Hope so, but they do not know that it does not mater, or that they are just sinners no more worthy of salvation than the worst of the worst. They have no faith in Jesus Christ. They have not experienced it. They are not redeemed and they are not justified, but only because they will not allow it by their own free will, which is what they think saves them.

To those reading this who know they are a sinner; who know their salvation is not based, or could ever be, on how worthy they are, or what deeds they have done, do not let people who do not know God lead you down their little path of despair, and worry. Know that you are free in Christ, not imprisoned. be reminded that it is your salvation that leads to your Christian life, not a Christian life that leads you to salvation. The first can only be done by faith. The latter can not be done at all. God is interested in saving sinners, and He can only save those who know they need saving. Let the righteous people be who they are.

As for this thread, James 2: 24 was used to try to discredit faith in Christ, and say that faith alone does not save........... 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone...................... When you see this type of stuff, take notice on what is not used, what is left out. In this case if you read all of James 2, it is crystal clear that the works James requires are not done apart from faith but done in faith, not done instead of faith but done because of faith. Anyone with Faith has a clear understanding of this, but be patient with those who struggle with their faith. They do not and can not have the same understanding, because they have yet to have the same experience. That does not mean they won't ever.

Anytime I am confronted by the faith less, be they said believers or not, those who do not know salvation, and who try to say I don't either, because it's very important to them that I be knocked down in my faith, I always hear this old hymn "Blessed Assurance". Most have shortened it to simply "Assurance". It's based on Hebrews 10:22 (NIV) 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

vs.1
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long;
this is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long.
vs.2
Perfect submission, perfect delight!
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

vs.3
Perfect submission, all is at rest!
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with his goodness, lost in His love.

If you are saved, you know you are saved, and you know you are never not saved. Even if others cause you to stumble, Christ is always there for you, to find you, to pick you up, same as He did when you meet Him. Do not let others stress you in your faith. Let them dish it out and use scripture as their weapons. Christ will not fail you. There is nothing in the Bible that says anything contrary to what you know to be true, and those who try to make you stumble are actually used by God to build you up.

 

[Butch5]

Every time I see these threads, I see the same believers in the same shape. Those who know they are saved and can speak to it, and those that don't, and can not. BUT, the difference is that those who can not call themselves saved, those who can only hope they are saved, but they do not know, are always comparing themselves to those who say they are saved.

For the sake of argument, we'll label the first group, those who say they are saved, OSAS, but we need a label for the second group, those who do not know their own salvation, and say they can not know if they are saved or not. SO I propose this. MSMN. That stands for Might be saved, Maybe Not.

We'll call these two labeled groups "Christian Believers" . However, I further propose a third group, one to identify the people who are not Christian believers, and who could care less about this whole issue of salvation. We'll call them DKDC, and that stands for Don't Know, Don't Care.

SO we have three groups.
1. OSAS, People who believe they are saved and held in Gods grace to the end.
2.MSMN. People who do not know if they are saved or not. Sometimes they feel saved, sometimes not.
3.DKDC. People who do not know they are saved and don't care.

We don't see too many DKDC people in churches. They may visit from time to time, but They don't have a connection to God. They admit it. They will tell you straight up, that God is not real, it's all made up stories. They don't get it, don't care to get it. They just live their life as they wish and in the end they die, or they may be part of some other religion entirely. When they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others.

We do however see MSMN people in church. Like the DKDC folks, they too have no idea of their salvation. And like the DKDC people, when they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others, but they differ from the DKDC people in that they do seem to care if they are saved or not, but what they don't like, what they can't stand, are OSAS people running around saying they are saved, and that Christ saved them. DKDC people feel the same way about OSAS people, but for different reasons.

They (MSMN) people, don't like OSAS people because OSAS people point to God as the one who saved them. MSMN people point to themselves and then they compare themselves to others. They speak of good deeds, and works, because that's all they think they have. Faith, does not enter into it for them, and so they compensate in desperation for that which they desire, (Salvation). Jesus spoke of these people in many of his parables.

The most obvious; Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

In this parable we see the MSMN talking himself up; "Look how great I am lord! Look at all I do, and how righteous I am"! Verse 9 points this out in descriptive narrative. "9 "9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else." Notice it does not say "Confident of their own salvation", it says Confident of their own "RIGHTEOUSNESS". their own ability to be worthy of God.

That is what people who who don't know is they are saved, and who can only hope they are in the end have; Their own righteousness. And so, they warn others, but they also compare themselves to others because deep inside, what they won't tell you, what they relish the most, is the idea that they are better than others,and therefore more worthy. They Hope so, but they do not know that it does not mater, or that they are just sinners no more worthy of salvation than the worst of the worst. They have no faith in Jesus Christ. They have not experienced it. They are not redeemed and they are not justified, but only because they will not allow it by their own free will, which is what they think saves them.

To those reading this who know they are a sinner; who know their salvation is not based, or could ever be, on how worthy they are, or what deeds they have done, do not let people who do not know God lead you down their little path of despair, and worry. Know that you are free in Christ, not imprisoned. be reminded that it is your salvation that leads to your Christian life, not a Christian life that leads you to salvation. The first can only be done by faith. The latter can not be done at all. God is interested in saving sinners, and He can only save those who know they need saving. Let the righteous people be who they are.

As for this thread, James 2: 24 was used to try to discredit faith in Christ, and say that faith alone does not save........... 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone...................... When you see this type of stuff, take notice on what is not used, what is left out. In this case if you read all of James 2, it is crystal clear that the works James requires are not done apart from faith but done in faith, not done instead of faith but done because of faith. Anyone with Faith has a clear understanding of this, but be patient with those who struggle with their faith. They do not and can not have the same understanding, because they have yet to have the same experience. That does not mean they won't ever.

Anytime I am confronted by the faith less, be they said believers or not, those who do not know salvation, and who try to say I don't either, because it's very important to them that I be knocked down in my faith, I always hear this old hymn "Blessed Assurance". Most have shortened it to simply "Assurance". It's based on Hebrews 10:22 (NIV) 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

vs.1
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long;
this is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long.
vs.2
Perfect submission, perfect delight!
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

vs.3
Perfect submission, all is at rest!
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with his goodness, lost in His love.

If you are saved, you know you are saved, and you know you are never not saved. Even if others cause you to stumble, Christ is always there for you, to find you, to pick you up, same as He did when you meet Him. Do not let others stress you in your faith. Let them dish it out and use scripture as their weapons. Christ will not fail you. There is nothing in the Bible that says anything contrary to what you know to be true, and those who try to make you stumble are actually used by God to build you up.

Dude, this is a straw man. People who are non OSAS can know they are saved. You're two groups, OSAS people and MSMN people are actually the same group. OSAS people cannot know that they are saved simply because they claim that one who falls away was never saved. If we see one who claims to be a Christian today who is producing fruit yet 10 years from now he has returned to the old life and his old sinful ways the OSAS crowd claims he was never saved to begin with. So all that time he thought he was a Christian and was producing fruit, according to the OSAS crown he was nothing more than a lost sinner. Since no one knows the future no one can really say with certainty that they will not change their mind in the future and return to the old life, thus they cannot know now if they saved.

On the other hand, those who believe salvation can be lost can be certain right now that they are saved. Their being saved at the moment isn't dependent on the outcome of what happens in the future. Their ultimate salvation in the end is dependent on the future but their present state of salvation isn't. Those who hold to OSAS cannot say this as proof of todays salvation according to OSAS can only be determined at the end.

 

[Danus]

Every time I see these threads, I see the same believers in the same shape. Those who know they are saved and can speak to it, and those that don't, and can not. BUT, the difference is that those who can not call themselves saved, those who can only hope they are saved, but they do not know, are always comparing themselves to those who say they are saved.

For the sake of argument, we'll label the first group, those who say they are saved, OSAS, but we need a label for the second group, those who do not know their own salvation, and say they can not know if they are saved or not. SO I propose this. MSMN. That stands for Might be saved, Maybe Not.

We'll call these two labeled groups "Christian Believers" . However, I further propose a third group, one to identify the people who are not Christian believers, and who could care less about this whole issue of salvation. We'll call them DKDC, and that stands for Don't Know, Don't Care.

SO we have three groups.
1. OSAS, People who believe they are saved and held in Gods grace to the end.
2.MSMN. People who do not know if they are saved or not. Sometimes they feel saved, sometimes not.
3.DKDC. People who do not know they are saved and don't care.

We don't see too many DKDC people in churches. They may visit from time to time, but They don't have a connection to God. They admit it. They will tell you straight up, that God is not real, it's all made up stories. They don't get it, don't care to get it. They just live their life as they wish and in the end they die, or they may be part of some other religion entirely. When they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others.

We do however see MSMN people in church. Like the DKDC folks, they too have no idea of their salvation. And like the DKDC people, when they face God they will rest on how good they are compared to others, but they differ from the DKDC people in that they do seem to care if they are saved or not, but what they don't like, what they can't stand, are OSAS people running around saying they are saved, and that Christ saved them. DKDC people feel the same way about OSAS people, but for different reasons.

They (MSMN) people, don't like OSAS people because OSAS people point to God as the one who saved them. MSMN people point to themselves and then they compare themselves to others. They speak of good deeds, and works, because that's all they think they have. Faith, does not enter into it for them, and so they compensate in desperation for that which they desire, (Salvation). Jesus spoke of these people in many of his parables.

The most obvious; Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

In this parable we see the MSMN talking himself up; "Look how great I am lord! Look at all I do, and how righteous I am"! Verse 9 points this out in descriptive narrative. "9 "9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else." Notice it does not say "Confident of their own salvation", it says Confident of their own "RIGHTEOUSNESS". their own ability to be worthy of God.

That is what people who who don't know is they are saved, and who can only hope they are in the end have; Their own righteousness. And so, they warn others, but they also compare themselves to others because deep inside, what they won't tell you, what they relish the most, is the idea that they are better than others,and therefore more worthy. They Hope so, but they do not know that it does not mater, or that they are just sinners no more worthy of salvation than the worst of the worst. They have no faith in Jesus Christ. They have not experienced it. They are not redeemed and they are not justified, but only because they will not allow it by their own free will, which is what they think saves them.

To those reading this who know they are a sinner; who know their salvation is not based, or could ever be, on how worthy they are, or what deeds they have done, do not let people who do not know God lead you down their little path of despair, and worry. Know that you are free in Christ, not imprisoned. be reminded that it is your salvation that leads to your Christian life, not a Christian life that leads you to salvation. The first can only be done by faith. The latter can not be done at all. God is interested in saving sinners, and He can only save those who know they need saving. Let the righteous people be who they are.

As for this thread, James 2: 24 was used to try to discredit faith in Christ, and say that faith alone does not save........... 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone...................... When you see this type of stuff, take notice on what is not used, what is left out. In this case if you read all of James 2, it is crystal clear that the works James requires are not done apart from faith but done in faith, not done instead of faith but done because of faith. Anyone with Faith has a clear understanding of this, but be patient with those who struggle with their faith. They do not and can not have the same understanding, because they have yet to have the same experience. That does not mean they won't ever.

Anytime I am confronted by the faith less, be they said believers or not, those who do not know salvation, and who try to say I don't either, because it's very important to them that I be knocked down in my faith, I always hear this old hymn "Blessed Assurance". Most have shortened it to simply "Assurance". It's based on Hebrews 10:22 (NIV) 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

vs.1
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long;
this is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long.
vs.2
Perfect submission, perfect delight!
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

vs.3
Perfect submission, all is at rest!
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with his goodness, lost in His love.

If you are saved, you know you are saved, and you know you are never not saved. Even if others cause you to stumble, Christ is always there for you, to find you, to pick you up, same as He did when you meet Him. Do not let others stress you in your faith. Let them dish it out and use scripture as their weapons. Christ will not fail you. There is nothing in the Bible that says anything contrary to what you know to be true, and those who try to make you stumble are actually used by God to build you up.

Dude, this is a straw man. People who are non OSAS can know they are saved. You're two groups, OSAS people and MSMN people are actually the same group. OSAS people cannot know that they are saved simply because they claim that one who falls away was never saved. If we see one who claims to be a Christian today who is producing fruit yet 10 years from now he has returned to the old life and his old sinful ways the OSAS crowd claims he was never saved to begin with. So all that time he thought he was a Christian and was producing fruit, according to the OSAS crown he was nothing more than a lost sinner. Since no one knows the future no one can really say with certainty that they will not change their mind in the future and return to the old life, thus they cannot know now if they saved.

On the other hand, those who believe salvation can be lost can be certain right now that they are saved. Their being saved at the moment isn't dependent on the outcome of what happens in the future. Their ultimate salvation in the end is dependent on the future but their present state of salvation isn't. Those who hold to OSAS cannot say this as proof of todays salvation according to OSAS can only be determined at the end.

Well said. You just made my point about knowing & not knowing, the difference in those with assurance & those without. Well said indeed. I particularly appreciate you labeling your response as a false dichotomy on the front end. Don't often see that type of insightful honesty. Very nice wording.

 

[francisdesales]

what is at issue here is the presumption that we are one of the sheep. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" has been called by the Father.

Thus, OSAS is pointless.

Using that as a cop out on OSAS doesn't compute as you have been led to think.

EVERYONE works iniquity, so presumably nobody will be making it to heaven using your 'THUS,' will they?

lol

s

You seem to be under the misconception that God places one's good deeds on one side and one's bad deeds on the other side and weighs them, thus, your earlier comment about 50.001% v 49.999%. That is not the case.

The cop out, to use your words, is to totally ignore the entire passage of Matthew 25 altogether and what it says about how people will be judged at the end of time. Note, nothing is said about "two lines", one for ordinary people who are judged based on deeds, and another line for the supposed OSAS saved people who go directly into heaven. Scripture states that ALL will be judged based on what they did in this life. Even "OSAS" people.

 

[Danus]

what is at issue here is the presumption that we are one of the sheep. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" has been called by the Father.

Thus, OSAS is pointless.

Using that as a cop out on OSAS doesn't compute as you have been led to think.

EVERYONE works iniquity, so presumably nobody will be making it to heaven using your 'THUS,' will they?

lol

s

You seem to be under the misconception that God places one's good deeds on one side and one's bad deeds on the other side and weighs them, thus, your earlier comment about 50.001% v 49.999%. That is not the case.

The cop out, to use your words, is to totally ignore the entire passage of Matthew 25 altogether and what it says about how people will be judged at the end of time. Note, nothing is said about "two lines", one for ordinary people who are judged based on deeds, and another line for the supposed OSAS saved people who go directly into heaven. Scripture states that ALL will be judged based on what they did in this life. Even "OSAS" people.

totally agree, but I'd make a distinction to describe the FINAL Judgment to be, SAVED by grace, judged by works. This is a clear and important distinction from saved or not saved. That is the first judgment, and again, works do not support salvation. The problem we have with this thread are those leaving Grace out of the equation and assuming the OSAS people don't do any works. It not true, never has been and never will be.

The NT writers convey that it is possible for the people of God to live in such a way as to please God.
The NT writers convey that those who are truly God’s people will, in fact, live in this God-pleasing way.
The NT writers (and Jesus!) convey that these God-pleasing lives will distinguish God’s people from those who are outside the Christian community.
These previous points together indicate another assumption, that the people who are brought into the community will live out their calling in such a way that they will, in the end, be vindicated. The final judgment plays a role in exhorting the people of God to the faithfulness to which they have been called–and this is a real exhortation with real consequences for failure. The final judgment plays a role in comforting the people of God who, most often in this life, will not see themselves rewarded for their faithfulness to the heavenly economy.

Again, and I don't know why people argue this. Any assurance is found in Christ! Not in your worthless works! When you are in Christ you are saved to the end. Christ keeps the saved.

 

[MarkT]

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

francis

Do you believe you belong to Jesus? Do you believe the Father has you in his hand, and he will not let the devil have you? Or do you believe salvation is up to you, salvation is your decision?

The difference is one man hears the words I quoted and he believes. He invests everything he has in the belief that the Father will never let him fall. The other man depends on his own work. Does salvation ultimately come down to good deeds? Is salvation earned by good deeds? Then my question is how many good deeds do you have to do to earn salvation?

I agree works complete our faith. But these works must not be seen as our works but as works of the Holy Spirit in us to will and to do the will of God.

If you believe God has you in his hand, I believe you will be justified now and in the end. I believe it is acceptable to say if God is on our side, who can snatch us from his hand?

 

[smaller]

You seem to be under the misconception that God places one's good deeds on one side and one's bad deeds on the other side and weighs them, thus, your earlier comment about 50.001% v 49.999%. That is not the case.

As it pertained to my observation prior you cited that not everyone who says LORD LORD, will be saved and that presumably from the Matt. 7 acct. here:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


as if that was some dead sure kill on OSAS. And I observed that 'all' in fact 'work iniquity.'


and if that was your KILL CLAIM then NO ONE is getting into heaven.


As to your 'recited statement' from me above in a closed thread, it was again a similar factual observation that the same all that sin/do iniquity also do both sheep works and goat works.

Handle the facts as you please but by all means handle the facts.

The cop out, to use your words, is to totally ignore the entire passage of Matthew 25 altogether and what it says about how people will be judged at the end of time.

Oh? End of what time? Their time? Earths time? Anyone's time? You know we are not allowed to discuss your particular sects doctrines on 'end times,' in this forum anyway.

Note, nothing is said about "two lines", one for ordinary people who are judged based on deeds, and another line for the supposed OSAS saved people who go directly into heaven. Scripture states that ALL will be judged based on what they did in this life. Even "OSAS" people.

I will again point out the obvious. That 'all' sin/work iniquity and the same 'all' do both goat works and sheep works regardless of their status of faith.

I might even think these facts are beyond dispute with any clear thinking believer.

s

 

[dadof10]

My question to you is what's the alternative to "never were saved"? Do you think "some" BELIEVERS never were saved and some repent again, over and over

I think there may be people who have said the "sinners prayer" under pressure or maybe at some type of an evangelists meeting but they did not consider what they were doing. They walk away and go no further because it was a head thing not a heart thing, you know what I mean.

Repentance in the true sense comes from the heart. The Lord has touched a person with His grace and His Word has given the faith to speak to the heart. That person understands that they have sinned against their Lord, their Creator. They understand the blood Jesus was shed for them and that only by entering into a relationship with Him can they be forgiven and saved. I believe this is repentance onto salvation and we are justified by Him and His righteousness.

But after that we still repent. When we repent after we are saved it is the same and yet different. We don't repent in order to be saved, we already are. But we still have things that we do that are displeasing to God. He doesn't reject us and we have not rejected Him.

Isn't sinning rejecting God?

We still need to repent (change our mind) about whatever the problem is and get into agreement with God. The Word says that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repent so again we see that it is a heart thing first. We are sorry and often ashamed that we have displeased our loving Father and so we apologize and ask the Lord to help us be what He wants to be and Thank Him for His patience and help. It is our own rebellion or stubbornness sometimes that can cause us to not repent. God has not turned His back on us but we don't want to look at Him. If we will look, we see His goodness and we are lead to repent many, many times, over and over again throughout our lives. But it is OK, that is exactly what He wants us to do. But we don't lose our salvation every time we sin. The Lord is long-suffering towards us, He is kind, He understands we are human and that we are tempted. Remember He was to, He understands.

I agree with most of this. Where we disagree is that I look at sin as outright rebellion toward God. It is breaking our bond with Christ and, therefore we remove ourselves from the Kingdom of God. Until we repent and, as you put it above, are able to "look at Him again", we are not still saved, e.g. within the Kingdom of God.

What you are describing sounds a lot like free will. God "allows" us to reject Him, while always "working" for us to return to Him.

I certainly do believe in free will. If we don't have free will then after we are saved we would Never sin. I mean we must have free will or we would always be doing what is God's will and surely it is not His will that we sin. These scriptures clearly say that we need to reconcile ourselves to God. God reconciles us to Himself through Jesus.

IMO, the only way we could reject Him, would be to reject Him. This would be to no longer to believe at all that He is our only salvation, the Son of God, God come in the flesh, raised from the died, etc. That is rejection. No longer believing in Him.

OK. If this happens would you say this person has lost his salvation, or "never was saved to begin with"?

Sorry to make this so long....I just remember this. There is a man that hadn't thought about a friend in awhile and he got an real desire to get in touch with him. He had no idea where he was but he knew where his wife's parents lived. In the phone directory there were many listing of that last name but he started calling each number. About the 20th call a woman answered the phone and he said he was looking for "so and so" she asked who he was and he gave her his name. She immediately hung up the phone. He thought well that went well and he was puzzled. A few minutes later the phone rang it was the woman. She told him that she and her husband (his mentor) had come on such hard times that her husband had totally given up and no longer believed there was a God even. She said that just before he had called she had been talking to God " IF you are real, then why don't you send someone to minister to us. We served you in the ministry for 25 yrs....etc. Why won't you send someone to help us" That was when the phone rang. She was so overcome that she just hung up.
The man who made the call said that he know the Lord had put that strong desire in his heart to find this man. He was able to minister to them. Both the wife and the husband were restored.

This is the kind of things I believe the Lord does for His children who have fallen and sometimes very seriously. But He says He never will forsake us.

That's a great story, Deb. Sometimes God actually REALLY "calls" us...OK, dumb joke...

I believe we are saved by Grace alone. That your friend called and got ahold of his friend's wife RIGHT as He was giving her a private revelation, is a miracle. This person and his wife were justified by that Grace when they repented, there is no doubt about that. My question for you is, suppose one of them had died before the phone call? I understand how grace works, that God "kept them alive" until they could repent, but what does that say about eternal SECURITY? If a person is living his life in rebellion to God, how does he know if he will be saved before death? Isn't the heart of "security" KNOWING you can't be lost?

 

[dadof10]

You know we are not allowed to discuss your particular sects doctrines...

Could you please just stick to the theology Francis is putting forth and ignore what Church he belongs to? I would like to keep this thread open. Thanks in advance...

 

[Deborah13]

Isn't the heart of "security" KNOWING you can't be lost?

All I can tell is I used to think I could lose my salvation from sin. That did not produce in me the love I now have for God. When I accepted the fact that no one, nothing, could snatch out of His hand it just made me love God so much more. The fear was gone and my respect for God grew. It made me want to please Him even more not less. It is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance and that's what makes for a good relationship, a trusting relationship.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Psalm 23
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Sin is a shadow of death, but we need not fear, He will correct us and protect with His rod of authority and His Good Shepard's staff.

Just how I see.

 

[Butch5]

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

francis

Do you believe you belong to Jesus? Do you believe the Father has you in his hand, and he will not let the devil have you? Or do you believe salvation is up to you, salvation is your decision?

The difference is one man hears the words I quoted and he believes. He invests everything he has in the belief that the Father will never let him fall. The other man depends on his own work. Does salvation ultimately come down to good deeds? Is salvation earned by good deeds? Then my question is how many good deeds do you have to do to earn salvation?

I agree works complete our faith. But these works must not be seen as our works but as works of the Holy Spirit in us to will and to do the will of God.

If you believe God has you in his hand, I believe you will be justified now and in the end. I believe it is acceptable to say if God is on our side, who can snatch us from his hand?

The issue isn't about being snatched from God's hand, it about one who turns from the faith. You said the works are not ours, what do you do with John the Baptist's words?

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

(Mat 3:7-8 KJV)

And Paul,

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Act 26:20 KJV)

What about Jesus' words?

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luk 13:24-28 KJV)

We can see the striving here is directly contrasted with those who work iniquity.

 

[jasoncran]

Joe, uhm don't assume that the perserverance types here actually know that doctrine. the idea of this is that saint prays and repents and if he did repent, because God is the one whom keeps the person they shall produce fruit as evidence of the conversion sooner or later. if they don't they they were likely never saved to begin with. these do believe in an active faith.

Are there any examples of people you have met who "produce fruit as evidence of the conversion", then have returned to their former life of disobedience?

well let be known that even the doctrine of tulip accounts for that. god in that doctrine limits our will. we do have the ability to walk way but he will make our life such hell that we will return. that is their doctrine. don't assume that I buy that. I clearly don't. I have listened to a calvinist and discussed this off this forum.