James 2 And OSAS

[jasoncran]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

 

[smaller]

You know we are not allowed to discuss your particular sects doctrines...

Could you please just stick to the theology Francis is putting forth and ignore what Church he belongs to? I would like to keep this thread open. Thanks in advance...

He was the one who inserted the 'end time' axiom into the subject matter not me. So spare me the attempt at slinging it my direction.

s

 

[Danus]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

Fine, but that's not what a saved person does. No one is saved and then unsaves themselves and God simply says fine have it your way. Your way is what you get before salvation & anyone can have their own way as apposed to Gods.

You really can't call a person saved who does not want their salvation. And what a weak faith it is to not know one can trust in Jesus Christ. But that's what we have in many saying they believe. They believe today, but that's it. That's as far as their faith goes. Who knows if they will believe tomorrow? Sad. Weak. Faithless. To think God has no power to hold them to the end.

Those who want to have that type of faith, which is not faith at all, go right ahead. I can't convince you of your salvation. Not even God can apparently. So walk away. Why wait till tomorrow? Since you can't know if your saved why put yourself through the uncertainty? Apparently knowing your not saved is far easier than knowing you are saved. Your closer to not.

If it helps you to think osas people can't know they are saved I guess that's fine too. If that comforts you then convince yourselves, but you can't, so you speak out against what you don't know. That soothes your anxiety of not being assured, by knowing no one is, problem is you just aren't able to know that to be true. Hear today, gone tomorrow.

 

[jasoncran]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

Fine, but that's not what a saved person does. No one is saved and then unsaves themselves and God simply says fine have it your way. Your way is what you get before salvation & anyone can have their own way as apposed to Gods.

You really can't call a person saved who does not want their salvation. And what a weak faith it is to not know one can trust in Jesus Christ. But that's what we have in many saying they believe. They believe today, but that's it. That's as far as their faith goes. Who knows if they will believe tomorrow? Sad. Weak. Faithless. To think God has no power to hold them to the end.

ok show we where it say that. how does one come the knowledge of the lord and yet be said of that its best if one does turn not to have repented? weak? no lust. one can choose not to stay in Christ. in order for that to work. one would have to say that I can never be under sin as ultimately im saved no matter what sin I do. I can ignore the warnings of god and just sin all I want. I will be going to heaven. I have also heard some almost admit that. I know that I did walk away. when I was into the gay relationship. I knew , God, told me it was sin. I wanted it anyway. if I died then where would I go?

 

[Deborah13]

I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven.

Jason, I lean very strongly to OSAS, that thinking has not puffed me up. It was a very humbling experience for me. I am not of a Calvinist belief as far as their beliefs as to the elect. I believe that God's will is for ALL to be saved and that He draws ALL to Him and He allows us to choose.

 

[jasoncran]

then you have a problem. the later P, implies a limited free will. you in heart choose sin, you don't want to surrender it. you know it and you don't care. yet somehow we expect god to just send us on in? yes we can accept that we will never be perfect, but I am talking such a hard heart that you know that you know that its a sin and simply don't care, but at one time you were really strong for Christ.

I have been in that direction a time or to.porn was that for me. I have bounced from caring and being powerless and set free and back to the process all again.

 

[Danus]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

Fine, but that's not what a saved person does. No one is saved and then unsaves themselves and God simply says fine have it your way. Your way is what you get before salvation & anyone can have their own way as apposed to Gods.

You really can't call a person saved who does not want their salvation. And what a weak faith it is to not know one can trust in Jesus Christ. But that's what we have in many saying they believe. They believe today, but that's it. That's as far as their faith goes. Who knows if they will believe tomorrow? Sad. Weak. Faithless. To think God has no power to hold them to the end.

ok show we where it say that. how does one come the knowledge of the lord and yet be said of that its best if one does turn not to have repented? weak? no lust. one can choose not to stay in Christ. in order for that to work. one would have to say that I can never be under sin as ultimately im saved no matter what sin I do. I can ignore the warnings of god and just sin all I want. I will be going to heaven. I have also heard some almost admit that. I know that I did walk away. when I was into the gay relationship. I knew , God, told me it was sin. I wanted it anyway. if I died then where would I go?

I've not heard anyone who believes they are saved to the end not be. Concerned about sin. Quite the opposite. People who know they are saved know they are a sinner. But their assurance is in Christ Atonement not in their ability. People who know this know they are saved. Do your trust in Christ or in your own sinlessness ? Will your attempts to not sin and not be a sinner save you? Do you trust in that? No one dose. That's why some say they don't know if they are saved because they are stuck trying to trust in themselves. Not Christ. They want people who trust in Chris alone, to be shaken in thief faith so that they will feel better about not being assured, but it just doesn't work, so they attack what they think is the source, not understanding that the source of assurance is not some stupid doctrine. But God Himself.

 

[Deborah13]

but I am talking such a hard heart that you know that you know that its a sin and simply don't care, but at one time you were really strong for Christ.

Really, and what makes you so special brother Jason? What makes you think other Christian don't ever go through this? Maybe their problem could be anger or some other sin. Sin is sin. What about unforgiveness?

I have bounced from caring and being powerless and set free and back to the process all again.

Well, the way I see it, you are proof of the puddin'. Do you think you did that 'set free again' all by yourself? Do you consider that the Holy Spirit is working on your heart to straighten you out? He truly is long......suffering you know.

 

[smaller]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

Fine, but that's not what a saved person does. No one is saved and then unsaves themselves and God simply says fine have it your way. Your way is what you get before salvation & anyone can have their own way as apposed to Gods.

You really can't call a person saved who does not want their salvation. And what a weak faith it is to not know one can trust in Jesus Christ. But that's what we have in many saying they believe. They believe today, but that's it. That's as far as their faith goes. Who knows if they will believe tomorrow? Sad. Weak. Faithless. To think God has no power to hold them to the end.

ok show we where it say that. how does one come the knowledge of the lord and yet be said of that its best if one does turn not to have repented? weak? no lust. one can choose not to stay in Christ. in order for that to work. one would have to say that I can never be under sin as ultimately im saved no matter what sin I do. I can ignore the warnings of god and just sin all I want. I will be going to heaven. I have also heard some almost admit that. I know that I did walk away. when I was into the gay relationship. I knew , God, told me it was sin. I wanted it anyway. if I died then where would I go?

I've not heard anyone who believes they are saved to the end not be. Concerned about sin. Quite the opposite. People who know they are saved know they are a sinner. But their assurance is in Christ Atonement not in their ability. People who know this know they are saved. Do your trust in Christ or in your own sinlessness ? Will your attempts to not sin and not be a sinner save you? Do you trust in that? No one dose. That's why some say they don't know if they are saved because they are stuck trying to trust in themselves. Not Christ. They want people who trust in Chris alone, to be shaken in thief faith so that they will feel better about not being assured, but it just doesn't work, so they attack what they think is the source, not understanding that the source of assurance is not some stupid doctrine. But God Himself.

Well said above.

The obvious missing link in these conversations is the working of the 'evil one.' Not all failings are of believers only. We still have an ADVERSARY. The hard part for most to understand is that the attack of the adversary is internal and through the avenue of TEMPTATIONS. It is there, within, that the real spiritual battles for all of us often rage. We need to see this matter accurately in order to judge both our own failures and the falling of others. It is not just a matter of the person only.

Modern day psychology teaches 'disassociation' to bad thinking. But God in Christ has been teaching disassociation to EVIL THOUGHTS for thousands of years now and much better than the shrinks because God points us to a 'source' upon which to DISASSOCIATE that is not us, but our ENEMY.

When 'the enemy' factor comes to the table we can also see 'which party' is saved (the believer) and which party causes all the trouble (the tempter.)

One of these parties deserves the scorn and it is NOT either the believer or the fallen believer.

Let's just get the real culprit on the table and the subject matter begins to clear up considerably.

This fact also eradicates 'free will' as well as obviously there is another operator IN the will. And it is primarily 'freewillers' who promote NON OSAS and also utterly fail to account for the workings of the tempter in the failings and fallings of believers minds of faith.

s

 

[jasoncran]

but I am talking such a hard heart that you know that you know that its a sin and simply don't care, but at one time you were really strong for Christ.

Really, and what makes you so special brother Jason? What makes you think other Christian don't ever go through this? Maybe their problem could be anger or some other sin. Sin is sin. What about unforgiveness?

I have bounced from caring and being powerless and set free and back to the process all again.

Well, the way I see it, you are proof of the puddin'. Do you think you did that 'set free again' all by yourself? Do you consider that the Holy Spirit is working on your heart to straighten you out? He truly is long......suffering you know.

but I asked. I do sit there and ignore and the most strong urges of Him to repent. I do believe he does what you say but he doesn't override freewill. he may touch us but WE have to want to.

 

[jasoncran]

no, danus, I am not an osaser. I am not better then others, I do get puffed up but I am reminded of my sins and evil nature and say this. god alone changes and god alone can carry us to heaven. but we can at anytime say No I don't want to go to heaven, and walk away.God being the gentlemen he is will allow for this and let us. he will knock until we die.

Fine, but that's not what a saved person does. No one is saved and then unsaves themselves and God simply says fine have it your way. Your way is what you get before salvation & anyone can have their own way as apposed to Gods.

You really can't call a person saved who does not want their salvation. And what a weak faith it is to not know one can trust in Jesus Christ. But that's what we have in many saying they believe. They believe today, but that's it. That's as far as their faith goes. Who knows if they will believe tomorrow? Sad. Weak. Faithless. To think God has no power to hold them to the end.

ok show we where it say that. how does one come the knowledge of the lord and yet be said of that its best if one does turn not to have repented? weak? no lust. one can choose not to stay in Christ. in order for that to work. one would have to say that I can never be under sin as ultimately im saved no matter what sin I do. I can ignore the warnings of god and just sin all I want. I will be going to heaven. I have also heard some almost admit that. I know that I did walk away. when I was into the gay relationship. I knew , God, told me it was sin. I wanted it anyway. if I died then where would I go?

I've not heard anyone who believes they are saved to the end not be. Concerned about sin. Quite the opposite. People who know they are saved know they are a sinner. But their assurance is in Christ Atonement not in their ability. People who know this know they are saved. Do your trust in Christ or in your own sinlessness ? Will your attempts to not sin and not be a sinner save you? Do you trust in that? No one dose. That's why some say they don't know if they are saved because they are stuck trying to trust in themselves. Not Christ. They want people who trust in Chris alone, to be shaken in thief faith so that they will feel better about not being assured, but it just doesn't work, so they attack what they think is the source, not understanding that the source of assurance is not some stupid doctrine. But God Himself.

I quote and consider in the ancient jewish thought there was no such thing as heart knowledge. the idea of that isn't in the bible. the jewish word for those translations to heart is the mind. that is where the jews thought the idea of emotions were stored. minor detail. and important to the verse

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

how does one escape the pollutions of the world without the power of god?I really want to know. Deborah like end times read the bible as it says, not what I nor the others say.

 

[Butch5]

It's interesting to me that the same thing happened in this thread that happened in the other thread, that being no one seems to want to address the historical evidence. It simply gets ignored. The fact is that the church did not teach this doctrine until after the Reformation. As I said in the other post, it doesn't matter what passage you quote or how you interpret it, you simply cannot get past the fact that from the time of the apostles until the Reformation the church didn't teach this doctrine. That's 1500 years of Christianity with "NO" teaching of OSAS. For one to claim that OSAS is a Biblical doctrine they are left with the idea that the church was in error for the first 1500 years. What does that say about the ability of Christ and the apostles to establish the "Faith once delivered to the saints?" Those who hold this doctrine have to face this fact. This would mean that the Gnositics who John called antichrist actually had the truth because it was they, who among others, held this doctrine. How do you address this problem?

 

[jasoncran]

It's interesting to me that the same thing happened in this thread that happened in the other thread, that being no one seems to want to address the historical evidence. It simply gets ignored. The fact is that the church did not teach this doctrine until after the Reformation. As I said in the other post, it doesn't matter what passage you quote or how you interpret it, you simply cannot get past the fact that from the time of the apostles until the Reformation the church didn't teach this doctrine. That's 1500 years of Christianity with "NO" teach of OSAS. For one to claim that OSAS is a Biblical doctrine they are left with the idea that the church was in error for the first 1500 years. What does that say about the ability of Christ and the apostles to establish the "Faith once delivered to the saints?" Those who hold this doctrine have to face this fact. This would mean that the Gnositics who John called antichrist actually had the truth because it was they, who among others, held this doctrine. How you address this problem?

martin luther didn't believe in eternal security.

 

[Elijah674]

What does the Lord require for the New Birth is the question to be asked? Acts 5:32 is the answer... [32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, [[whom God hath given to them that obey him]].

Now about Baptists. We hear of alter calls at about every service. Never are they taught the real truth. But stop and read the verse again... 'the holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them WHO OBEY HIM.'

If you caught this? What more at this venture can one lack?? A good sampling surely finds that most had a 'good' start with being born again.
So if you can understand this these 'mostly' ARE BORN AGAIN!

Now comes growth?? It is said what more do I need Lord I am born again! These Baptist made an extra good start! They remind me of the Jew that came to the Earthly Sanctuary to offer the required Lamb offering. After it was offered instead of GOING ON FURTHER he just told the Priest that this is as far as is needed for me to go, and that he was now going on back home! (Rom. 8:1 was enough!) I AM JUSTIFIED!

And the whole group are this ignorant. From the minister on down.
If they could just 'see' that the Lord requires Maturity. Most might not comprehend this but check out 1 John 5:16-17? And this whole group have been doing the same false teaching since day one. Surely Christ had some of these in mind when He documented Matt. 7 on Obedience.
And David in Psalms 19:13 using the word of PERSUMPTION.

--Elijah

 

[Butch5]

It's interesting to me that the same thing happened in this thread that happened in the other thread, that being no one seems to want to address the historical evidence. It simply gets ignored. The fact is that the church did not teach this doctrine until after the Reformation. As I said in the other post, it doesn't matter what passage you quote or how you interpret it, you simply cannot get past the fact that from the time of the apostles until the Reformation the church didn't teach this doctrine. That's 1500 years of Christianity with "NO" teach of OSAS. For one to claim that OSAS is a Biblical doctrine they are left with the idea that the church was in error for the first 1500 years. What does that say about the ability of Christ and the apostles to establish the "Faith once delivered to the saints?" Those who hold this doctrine have to face this fact. This would mean that the Gnositics who John called antichrist actually had the truth because it was they, who among others, held this doctrine. How you address this problem?

martin luther didn't believe in eternal security.

I didn't mention Martin Luther.

 

[jasoncran]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

 

[Danus]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

No he was not. Calvin did not develop anything new.

 

[Danus]

The obvious missing link in these conversations is the working of the 'evil one.' Not all failings are of believers only.

Very true, good point back at you.

 

[jasoncran]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

No he was not. Calvin did not develop anything new.

show me where the rcc, the orthodox , the easter church pushed limited free will and eternal security.

kindly, even if im wrong show me that one can escape the pollutions of this world without Christ.

 

[Butch5]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

I was just making a general statement about the time not pointing to anyone in particular.