James 2 And OSAS

[Danus]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

No he was not. Calvin did not develop anything new.

show me where the rcc, the orthodox , the easter church pushed limited free will and eternal security.

kindly, even if im wrong show me that one can escape the pollutions of this world without Christ.

What does that have to do with eternal security, with assurance of salvation?

Look, my point is to the OP. This idea that a person can not know they are saved to the end, that they are held by the grace of God, by god himself, is a faithless notion. It is not God telling anyone they are not saved. Only Satin says that. Calvin, Luther, Paul, Agustin...add any name you want, did not invent an idea of eternal salvation that was not from God.

The idea than Jame 2:24 says we are not saved by grace, is dead wrong, and is either a misreading of the scripture or something more sinister. That's not the message of James.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. but i await the proper defense on why peter wasn't saying anything about a Christians who has escaped the pollutions of the world. but rather the sinner who heard the gospel and never really repented.

 

[jasoncran]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

No he was not. Calvin did not develop anything new.

show me where the rcc, the orthodox , the easter church pushed limited free will and eternal security.

kindly, even if im wrong show me that one can escape the pollutions of this world without Christ.

What does that have to do with eternal security, with assurance of salvation?

Look, my point is to the OP. This idea that a person can not know they are saved to the end, that they are held by the grace of God, by god himself, is a faithless notion. It is not God telling anyone they are not saved. Only Satin says that. Calvin, Luther, Paul, Agustin...add any name you want, did not invent an idea of eternal salvation that was not from God.

The idea than Jame 2:24 says we are not saved by grace, is dead wrong, and is either a misreading of the scripture or something more sinister. That's not the message of James.

im not saying we stay in works. but rather we can freely walk away and do so knowingly. again reconcile what peter meant by escaping the pollutions of the world through the saving knowledge of Christ and yet also mentions those same denying the faith? how is that possible if god does override our will? do we then have the power to set ourselves free? No or is it something else.

i did quote peter on this. kindly address it.

 

[jeff77]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation. I can see how someone was not truly saved in the first place.

 

[Danus]

m not saying we stay in works. but rather we can freely walk away and do so knowingly. again reconcile what peter meant by escaping the pollutions of the world through the saving knowledge of Christ and yet also mentions those same denying the faith? how is that possible if god does override our will? do we then have the power to set ourselves free? No or is it something else. i did quote peter on this. kindly address it.

OK. You are referring to 2 Peter 2:20 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.


Some see this to the point your making, that as proof that a saved person can loose their salvation. They know the Lord, they escape the corruption of the world through this knowledge, but return to it.

The question is; where they ever saved to begin with? The OSAS says NO, but not just to say no. There is supporting scripture in defence of the idea some are pouring into 2 Peter 2:20. The most obvious is John 10:27-30 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

If the person described in 2 Peter is a sheep of Christ, then why are they returning to the world when Christ Himself says they are secure?

Another verse is Romans 8:28-39


28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So then, if 2 Peter 2:20 is speaking of a genuinely saved person, we have a problem. There is a clear discrepancy in God's word because in these two verses I give, it states emphatically that a saved person is saved, and that no one or anything, can change that. Therefore, the person who turns from God is not genuinely saved.

Should we wonder? I suppose we should. But Faith builds in the true Christian life. It does not diminish. It grows, and that faith points more and more to salvation, not to turning from God.

 

[Guest]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation. I can see how someone was not truly saved in the first place.

Religion my friend. Religion turns people into Hitler doctrine. They can't lose their salvation, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Although they might beat it into your head to sit up straighter.

 

[Deborah13]

Calvin, Luther, Paul, Agustin...add any name you want, did not invent an idea of eternal salvation that was not from God.

Here's what Martin Luther ..He explained his concept of "justification" in the Smalcald Articles:
The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24–25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23–25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Justification_by_faith

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=22286]Danus[/MENTION] I love reading your posts. You are wise in Christ. Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm he says they escaped. the word he used means they escaped. if one never repented then they didn't escape but were in deception. the bible is simple and plainly read. the church makes it hard to understand not the holy spirit.

so peter didn't mean they escaped. sorry you like most are saying in order to defend that doctrine well peter didn't mean that or jesus didn't say that. how does one not forgive ones enemies and escape it to make to heaven?jesus makes that clear. he says if you don't forgive neither shall ye be forgiven. i know the bible has rough areas. but to say to me that we cant resist the HS is wrong. i have seen myself do that and it was so that i know that i am a sinner. but i have chosen sin over god. while calvin will admit that."our hearts are idol factories" the idea of plain reading implies the common sense rendering

if peter is wrong that the coming to the knowledge of saving grace then so is peter wrong when he states it. since the wording is the same.however if the reverse is postulated then peter later statement is true. to wit. 2 peter 3:18. also how does one forsake a right way if one never repented? kinda like saying well the army discharged me for bad conduct when i was never in it.

yes , i see it now. jesus charges us endure to the end when he already did it. yet that letter was to the churches of saved saints. that makes sense. give a command to himself.

 

[Danus]

[MENTION=22286]Danus[/MENTION] I love reading your posts. You are wise in Christ. Blessings.

Thank you for your kind words, Urk. I wish I could take credit for some of the good things I say, but that I have to Give to God. I say some pretty harsh stuff sometimes, to people I love and who know me, that I know only comes from my sinful self, but I can only hope God uses it to reflect what He would have of me. At least here I can delete or back space before I lunch it out there.

 

[jasoncran]

when does take time to study the torah and gets away from the gentile's church poor understand of the tanach in general and goes into depths. the torah wasn't a work based system. it was faith in YHWH and then one accepted the rules that he put forth because you loved him. when one sinned one went to the priest for atonement if the temple was around if not one merely prayed.while this was a shadow of the Lord. the lord now has replaced the means of atonement and also has a type of torah for us to study. this type is the whole bible. it teaches us via the holy spirit. when we fail we know via the word that we need to repent. like the torah it teaches us to what god is like and what to aspire too. once one understand that then one can take peters verse with Ezekiel where it says if a righteous man sins and dies in it he will be counted amongst the wicked.

 

[Danus]

so peter didn't mean they escaped.

No, this is what you are saying. I gave you the supporting scripture. Peter is not wrong. read the whole of it. He is talking about false teachers and their destruction. Back it up to verse 17 or even further if you like.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Even Peter is describing a person NOT SAVED

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=22286]Danus[/MENTION] Yeah it does seem like the more sinful we are the more we preach. I posted this earlier that might help with our repentance. Blessings..

Well said, I also sent this to email friend..temptation and sin are not the same. Temptation is a test of faith only. Temptation starts in your mind and your heart and flesh take action. James 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,†for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. What he's saying here is that temptation does not bring death, only the action of sin does. That's why Christians are taught to deny our flesh and walk in the spirit, the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16-17 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

 

[jasoncran]

ok but that shoots osas in the foot.i didn't see that. ironic that quoted line is also found in story of cain and able. and ramban if he was here would say it this way. when we sin we can overcome by repentence and doing the torah. since cain didn't do that he let sin enslave him and thus was judged for the actions he did.

amazing how jewish the new testament is.

 

[Butch5]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation. I can see how someone was not truly saved in the first place.

Why not?

 

[Danus]

ok but that shoots osas in the foot.i didn't see that. ironic that quoted line is also found in story of cain and able. and ramban if he was here would say it this way. when we sin we can overcome by repentence and doing the torah. since cain didn't do that he let sin enslave him and thus was judged for the actions he did.

amazing how jewish the new testament is.

How do you figure the verse I quoted shoot down the notion of eternal security for those who are genuinely saved? We just discussed it. Jesus says the saved are saved. Paul says the saved are saved. 2 Peter says the saved are saved. Yet your saying the saved are not necessarily saved? Or that they maybe saved, maybe not, who can know?

No offense, But Jews do not have a any better understanding of the bible than anyone else. Understanding salvation does not hinge on if someone understands a translated word or not. There are deaf and blind people who know salvation. There are mentally handicap people who can't even read who understand salvation. There is absolutely know knowledgeable requirement to know the Love and Grace of God. Yet I've never heard a lesser person worry one bit about the eternal security they have in Jesus Christ. That's because salvation is from the inside. It lives in the saved.

 

[jeff77]

Why not?

Because salvation is a gift. If you did lose your salvation wouldn't you have to do something to get it back and doesn't the Bible say we are saved by faith and not of works? So, in other words you can only get your salvation back by doing works, which the Bible clearly says you can't do.

 

[farouk]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation. I can see how someone was not truly saved in the first place.

Jeff77:

Exactly.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so how does one endure to the end if one need do I then?

im sorry. im stupid. I never said that one has to be all perfect but once again one can choose to sin and knowingly hate another. if that is the case then why did jesus warn us about holding grudges if no Christians would or could do that to his or her eternal damnation. plain wording.

if you don't forgive neither shall ye be forgiven. ok so if that is the case kindly reconcile.
why did jesus say these if he wouldn't blot a name out in the book of life, tell us to endure to the end if he is doing the enduring.uhm the context of all scripture is inspired didn't in pauls day actually mean the bible just yet. as It wasn't written. the tanach was the scripture. that he is referencing the epistles and gospels were important but not cannonised.

you are saying this jesus go do something, and well he did it for us. im not talking believing here but there are commands by him. these are evidence that we do love him. Its like this if inspect my life and find no love, no mercy, and no giving, the bible says I might not be born again.that is what the commands of Christ are for. to see if you are really are his. he knows its for you to see and to decide if I did repent and to just that change.

who does one get in the book of life and be blotted out?

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

so why did Christ say that if there is no way for it to happen. uhm I could easily show that the modern church gets it wrong about the tanach at times. sure there exceptions but for the most the part. the church sees god as some mean angry and unmerciful god and see jesus as the first time the idea of grace was offered to men.

that isn't the case. and I know the early church and not even the some of the reformers though that but the more one digs into the tanach and the teachings on it.ie the oral traditions that paul and jesus upholds one will see that not much has really changed. that is why, I posted that. if grace was so foreign to the jews then why did moses mention it? in fact I like the way the jews look at it. and they used the book of esther and the story of noah with it. it goes like this noah being faithful as he believe and did the torah received grace from god. one can only go before God as if he doesn't invite you to his presence one will die.

while that has a legalistic tinge to it. if you really look at Abraham and what he did and take that life as a precursor the Christian walk you see this. faith, then imputations of being right, god teaches him what is right and wrong even more(he was told by the oral stories by noah an shem of the el-shaddai). he is also faithful and god praises him for that and mentions that Abraham will spread the faith to his son.

its really not that different from what you just said. I am not disagree with that we are saved to be good. that is what I am saying but that we can clearly turn from Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

now then if you think that all men are automatically by default in the book of life, please show me how?