Jesus could have been disapproved.

[Alfred Persson]

Satan tempted Jesus because Jesus has free will and could have sinned.

The fatal flaw in that conclusion is it credits Satan's attempt as being possible, when in fact scripture proves Satan is "delusional", he errs in his thinking.

Satan's self-delusion led him to sin, and the same self-delusion led a third of heaven's angels to follow him

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" 9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge around him, around...

christianforums.net

 

[kjw47]

"work iniquity" ?
How would that be different than sinning?
Because you said that Paul must have sinned occasionally .

Everyone sins, some practice sin.

 

[kjw47]

And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (Matt. 3:17 NKJ)

God identifies Jesus and says He is well pleased. Nothing suggests God's pleasure is the result of a Judgment of Christ's obedience. You are reading into this scripture what is not there. Taking it out of context, to invent a pretext.

The impeccable character of Christ rules out disobedience to the Father.

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

Jesus' love for the Father rules out He can be disobedient:

"But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here. (Jn. 14:31 NKJ)

As a man Christ was tempted like we all are yet without committing any sin because His impeccable character was never in danger of choosing to do wrong.

For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15 NKJ)

Satan tempting Christ doesn't imply Jesus was capable of sinning, only that Jesus has genuine free will to choose.

To conclude otherwise is to ignore the obvious self-delusion that misled Satan to believe it could be proven to the heavenly court God makes mistakes and therefore does not have the right to rule as Sovereign God.

That explains why you can't find scriptures that Christ had to prove His obedience. The scriptures you cited are all directed to us.

You made this mistake about Christ because you don't know who He is:

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.(Jn. 1:10 NKJ)

Jesus himself says he remains in his Fathers love by obeying what God commanded him to do. (John 15:10-14) just as we remain in Jesus' love if we do what he commanded us to do.
Luke 22:42-- see Jesus has his own will, he chooses to do his Fathers will over his own. He could have chosen not to. Just like all true followers, they live now in this satan ruled system choosing to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will( Matt 7:21)

 

[kjw47]

The fatal flaw in that conclusion is it credits Satan's attempt as being possible, when in fact scripture proves Satan is "delusional", he errs in his thinking.

Satan's self-delusion led him to sin, and the same self-delusion led a third of heaven's angels to follow him

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" 9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge around him, around...

christianforums.net

Jesus was a perfect mortal man with free will. He could have chose to sin, its why satan tried.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus himself says he remains in his Fathers love by obeying what God commanded him to do. (John 15:10-14) just as we remain in Jesus' love if we do what he commanded us to do.
Luke 22:42-- see Jesus has his own will, he chooses to do his Fathers will over his own. He could have chosen not to. Just like all true followers, they live now in this satan ruled system choosing to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will( Matt 7:21)

You infer from Christ's words something impossible. Yes, Jesus' chooses to obey, but that doesn't imply He would ever choose to disobey.

Jesus will always choose to obey the Father:

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

That is Christ's self-revelation. Don't make the same mistake the Pharisees did, believe what Jesus says about Himself:

13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
15 "You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
17 "It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
18 "I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." (Jn. 8:13-19 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

You infer from Christ's words something impossible. Yes, Jesus' chooses to obey, but that doesn't imply He would ever choose to disobey.

Jesus will always choose to obey the Father:

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

That is Christ's self-revelation. Don't make the same mistake the Pharisees did, believe what Jesus says about Himself:

13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
15 "You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
17 "It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
18 "I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." (Jn. 8:13-19 NKJ)

I never said he would choose to obey. I said that he could have disobeyed if he chose not to do his Fathers will over self. Same with the true followers-they disown self to follow Jesus and live to do his Fathers will just like he did.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I never said he would choose to obey. I said that he could have disobeyed if he chose not to do his Fathers will over self. Same with the true followers-they disown self to follow Jesus and live to do his Fathers will just like he did.

Unseen in your conclusion is the contradiction it made which this:

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

Choosing to disobey the Father does not please Him
Christ always pleases the Father
Therefore, Christ will never choose to disobey the Father

That directly contradicts your premise: "he could have disobeyed if he chose not to do his Fathers will".

Without that premise, everything you built upon it collapses.

 

[Runningman]

in every one of them

Yes. They all promote the sin of idolatry.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus was a perfect mortal man with free will. He could have chose to sin, its why satan tried.

All scripture is beneficial for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Scripture reveals Satan's unsound thinking. Surprising, because of his position and knowledge of God. But he permitted conceit cause self-delusion, and believed things possible that were not so.

Tempting Jesus can be seen as consistent with his self-delusion. Satan's diminished view of the perfections of God. Of course a delusional creature would persist in the one delusion he hopes can salvage his situation.

But it doesn't logically follow that Christ would ever, under any circumstance, rebel against the Father. Especially as Christ bore self-witness, which must be true because Christ never taught untruth, He always does what pleases the Father:

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

All scripture is beneficial for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Scripture reveals Satan's unsound thinking. Surprising, because of his position and knowledge of God. But he permitted conceit cause self-delusion, and believed things possible that were not so.

Tempting Jesus can be seen as consistent with his self-delusion. Satan's diminished view of the perfections of God. Of course a delusional creature would persist in the one delusion he hopes can salvage his situation.

But it doesn't logically follow that Christ would ever, under any circumstance, rebel against the Father. Especially as Christ bore self-witness, which must be true because Christ never taught untruth, He always does what pleases the Father:

"And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (Jn. 8:29 NKJ)

I didn't say he would sin, i said he could have chose to sin. Its called free will.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I didn't say he would sin, i said he could have chose to sin. Its called free will.

If that were all you said, I would agree. Alas, you built an entire building on the premise Jesus could have been disapproved, because He could have chosen to sin.

I showed you scripture that is impossible because Jesus always does what pleases His Father.

Therefore, everything you allege, comparing Jesus to us, is a "hasty generalization" fallacy. You made assumptions about Jesus' impeccable character and about Satan's rationality, that are scripturally untrue.

Satan is not above vanity like "pride" affecting his logic. He made irrational choices because of his pride, yet you hold him in high esteem. He tempts Jesus, so this means Jesus could sin? In spite of the scripture where Christ states He always does what the Father desires! In essence you are believing Satan against Jesus!

That is sad, because rebellion against God results in rejection by God:

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king." (1 Sam. 15:23 NKJ)

 

[journeyman]

I mean... isn't 1 Corinthians 11:3 a bit like a hierarchy? The top is God, below God is Christ, below Christ is men, then women.

3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Yes, but Christ as the "head" of man should not be covered. Yet Paul also says,

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 1Cor.11:11 KJV

So Christ is also the "head" of the woman, but the woman (along with the man, that is the church) should uncover Him. A wife should not expose the man she married to shame. But their is no shame in Jesus...so expose Him.

Paul isn't saying Jesus is below God. He's saying as women are symbolic of the chuch and men are symbolic of Christ, but both together we are the image of our head Christ...Who is God.

 

[kjw47]

If that were all you said, I would agree. Alas, you built an entire building on the premise Jesus could have been disapproved, because He could have chosen to sin.

I showed you scripture that is impossible because Jesus always does what pleases His Father.

Therefore, everything you allege, comparing Jesus to us, is a "hasty generalization" fallacy. You made assumptions about Jesus' impeccable character and about Satan's rationality, that are scripturally untrue.

Satan is not above vanity like "pride" affecting his logic. He made irrational choices because of his pride, yet you hold him in high esteem. He tempts Jesus, so this means Jesus could sin? In spite of the scripture where Christ states He always does what the Father desires! In essence you are believing Satan against Jesus!

That is sad, because rebellion against God results in rejection by God:

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king." (1 Sam. 15:23 NKJ)

If he did choose to sin he would have been disapproved forever.

 

[journeyman]

The 144,000 will be judging as well alongside of Christ.

Where does it say that?

I meant in heaven-OT Jehovah was the only judge.

The angels in Heaven who sinned face the Messiah in judgment.

What is a little green monster?

The little JW bible. It was green.

 

[journeyman]

God’s indignation and wrath is executed by whom He appointed to be judge. God did not appoint Himself in that role, but the man Jesus.

There is no distinction between Gods' wrath or the Lambs wrath falling on the earth.

 

[LeviR]

There is no distinction between Gods' wrath or the Lambs wrath falling on the earth.

Right, the Lamb executes God’s judgements. The Lamb is the one who was killed and raised from the dead and who lives forevermore.
The one who was dead and now is alive.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but Christ as the "head" of man should not be covered. Yet Paul also says,

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 1Cor.11:11 KJV

So Christ is also the "head" of the woman, but the woman (along with the man, that is the church) should uncover Him. A wife should not expose the man she married to shame. But their is no shame in Jesus...so expose Him.

Paul isn't saying Jesus is below God. He's saying as women are symbolic of the chuch and men are symbolic of Christ, but both together we are the image of our head Christ...Who is God.

Paul talks about heads in two different senses. There is the sense in which the head is a leader and then there is a literal head with a head covering which would be a tradition. Whether or not someone's head is actually covered doesn't change the spiritual truths that Paul began the chapter with. He's saying there is a hierarchy, that's what I believe anyway. This same idea is talked about elsewhere in the New Testament with no mention of literal headcoverings.

 

[journeyman]

Right, the Lamb executes God’s judgements. The Lamb is the one who was killed and raised from the dead and who lives forevermore.
The one who was dead and now is alive.

to God the Judge of all Heb.12:23 KJV

And the time He chose to die,

his hour was not yet come. Jn.7:30 KJV

Think about the gravity of that statement. Considering that, it's easy to see why the Messiah didn't just say, "I'm God."

It's also the reason his disciples obscured this truth in their writings.

 

[journeyman]

Whether or not someone's head is actually covered doesn't change the spiritual truths that Paul began the chapter with.

Then he wouldn't have mentioned it all. You're missing Pauls' point. His point was a woman with short hair was unbecoming to her husband. So go back to the beginning of the chapter where Paul means Christ is both man and God.

He's saying there is a hierarchy, that's what I believe anyway. This same idea is talked about elsewhere in the New Testament with no mention of literal headcoverings.

Heb.10:20 is how the Messiah was covered.

 

[kjw47]

Where does it say that?

The angels in Heaven who sinned face the Messiah in judgment.

The little JW bible. It was green.

Rev 20:4-- given power to judge.
That little green bible is 1000,s of times better than any trinity translation. trinity translations by satans will through wicked men who had no right removed Gods name where God willed it because God wants it there. So every religion gets to show whose will they support on the matter of God's name in his bible where he put it in over 7000 places because he wants it there. Satans will= remove Gods name to mislead. Yet the ones mislead condemn the ones who loved God enough to support his will on that matter by putting his name back.