Any one who can understand English knows 100% if things are created-THROUGH one, another did it. The one greater than Jesus= his Father. The only one with the power and wisdom to create. Gen 1:27-HE( not we) did the creating. Prov 8-HE( not we) did the creating=YHVH(Jehovah), Jesus' God and Father.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Jesus could have been disapproved.
- Thread starter kjw47
- Start date
Well, no, that is not what English shows us. English, through the use of logic, shows us that if all things were created through the Son, then it necessarily follows that the Son cannot be something that was created. If the Son was created, then all things were not created through him, because he would have to be been created through himself.
That is why the NWT falsely inserts "other" to say "all other things." But that is a blatant, purposeful twisting of Scripture to fit doctrine rather than letting Scripture determine doctrine. "Other" does not appear in the Greek text, as the Watchtowers own Kingdom Interlinear shows.
Do you think YHWH belongs here, where it says "Lord"?:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)
That is the Father speaking of the Son. It is a quote from Psalms 102, which is speaking of YHWH:
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)
Even the NWT gets this right, which means it contradicts itself in other places:
Heb 1:8 But about the Son, he says: . . . 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.” (NWT)
Again, the Father says that about the Son. And, where does that come from? Once again, the Psalms:
Psa 102:1
O Jehovah, hear my prayer;
Let my cry for help reach you.
...
24 I said: “O my God,
Do not do away with me in the middle of my life,
You whose years span all generations.
25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away.
27 But you are the same, and your years will never end. (NWT)
So, who is being spoken of in Heb 1:10-12? Why doesn't the NWT have Jehovah in verse 10?
Jesus was created direct-first and last= only begotten son.=The firstborn of all creation. Its why Jesus has a God just like we do and when he hands the kingdom back( 1Cor 15:24-28) to his God and Father he subjects himself)))= forever-FACT=God is in subjection to no one.
journeymanisnothing
Member
We find at verse Heb 1:9-- That is why God, your God anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners( fellows) = angels. A quote of Psalm 45:7--So do you actually believe God has a God?
Please address my post. We can come back to that later.
Please address what I stated and show what is wrong the reasoning.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Not arguing that anymore.
I just answered your op that if Jesus failed His Father would be a liar because His Father said He wouldn't fail.
Other is 100% correct. Jesus was created direct.
Gen 1:27--HE( not we) created. Prov 8 HE( not we created)--Jesus is Gods master worker,( Prov 8:30) the one beside God during the creating. He gives God 100% credit.
I know 100% Jesus would never use his free will to choose to sin. But its100% fact he could have chosen to. Any with free will can. That is what i was showing. See Jesus has his own will- John 5:30Not arguing that anymore.
I just answered your op that if Jesus failed His Father would be a liar because His Father said He wouldn't fail.
Based on what? Not the Greek.
Again, please address what I posted about Heb 1:10-12.
verse 9 explains it--Jesus has a God-fellows( partners)= angels. So it's not to difficult to figure out. If Lord is referring to Jesus its as Gods master worker( Prov 8:30) he gives 100% credit to HE( God) for all the creating that was done.
If you had a son would he be sub-human?
No.
Therefore, God's only begotten Son is not sub-god.
God always was and always will be--one cannot create a God.
journeymanisnothing
Member
That's because His will is His Fathers' will.
Anyone except God.
Yes and you have not answered how the Messiah could fail when Jehovah said He couldn't.
No, that doesn’t explain it at all. According to the writer of Hebrews, the Father is clearly applying Psalms 102:25-27 to the Son in verses 10-12, and in doing so, is saying the Son is YHWH who created everything. That supports what was stated in verse 2.
I believe Scripture, not the man's theories of what God can do. Scripture says God has a Son, His only begotten:
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?
5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. (Prov. 30:4-5 NKJ)
Jesus has ascended into heaven, and descended into the lower parts of the earth. God the Word created all things, established the ends of the earth. Therefore, the answer to God's riddle about the name of His Son, is Jesus.
The Father says Jesus is His Son, therefore He is and all saying Jesus is not the Son of God, are liars.
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." (Lk. 3:22 NKJ)
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I agree, God didn't create a God. Scripture reveals the Father Has a Son, His only begotten. This is not an act of creation. How precisely this is, no one knows. But we believe it because Scripture teaches it. We don't claim to understand it, but we don't understand a lot of things, yet they exist.
Theologically speaking, its called "generation" and it is eternal and continuing, hence "eternal generation".
When discussing the Trinity, we are immediately confronted with the fact that it is a doctrine clouded in mystery. As finite, created beings, we will never be able to fully comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity; it is simply beyond our ability to fully comprehend. All human analogies used to explain the Trinity break down at some level. So, we need humility as we try to explain these things. We should not attempt to go further than the Scriptures warrant. Every heresy concerning the Trinity has arisen out of an attempt to explain the inexplicable.
With that said, let’s review what is commonly believed within evangelical circles in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity makes four basic assertions:
1. There is one and only one true and living God.
2. This one God eternally exists in three Persons—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
3. These three Persons are completely equal in attributes, each sharing the same divine nature.
4. While each Person is fully and completely God, the Persons are not identical.
These four claims are universally accepted by all professing Christians whether Roman Catholic or Protestant. Each of these four claims can be defended with Scripture. If we accept these as true, then we should be able to compare the doctrine of eternal generation against these and see if it holds up.
The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (the divine essence) of God is not divided. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof states the doctrine of eternal generation in this way:
It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, Eerdmans, 1938, p. 94).
So, we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the Father to the Son.
Because of this act of eternal generation, the relational terms Father and Son are used to identify the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The Father eternally generates the Son, and the Son (having no beginning or end) is eternally generated by the Father. This is similar to human generation (which, we note, is neither eternal nor necessary) in that human fathers also “generate” or “beget” human sons in their own image.
The doctrine of eternal generation is sometimes attacked on the basis that the idea of begetting implies a creation in time or that it suggests an ontological dependence. In response, we note that all human analogies regarding the Trinity eventually break down, so we can’t carry our analogies too far. Also, the qualifiers eternally and necessarily should remove any concerns of a temporal or subordinate relationship between the Father and the Son. The qualifier eternal removes this relationship from the constraints of time and space; there was no beginning, and will be no end to the generation of the Son from the Father. The qualifier necessarily removes any ontological dependence between the Father and the Son; the Son must be generated from the Father, and the Father must generate the Son.
The terms Father and Son do more than analogize the relationship between the First and Second Person of the Trinity; they also help explain a theological truth. There is a hierarchical and functional order being described here—one that defines the activity of Father and Son in the economy of creation and salvation. The Father speaks the universe into existence, and the Son is the agent of that creation. The Father elects the chosen unto salvation, and the Son provides the necessary atonement. The Father sends the Son, and not the other way around. This hierarchy of role and function in no way diminishes the ontological equality between the Father and the Son; they are both essentially God, sharing equally in the full divine essence. So, the terms Father and Son, far from being a mere anthropomorphism, go to the heart of defining this necessary and eternal relationship. As such, the doctrine of eternal generation is clearly in line with our four assertions concerning the Trinity, above.
Is this doctrine supported in Scripture? Consider the following verses:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)
“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” (John 1:18)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
“For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)
“Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.” (John 14:11)
“That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)
“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” (Hebrews 1:3)
The thrust of these verses, as they apply to the Trinity, is to suggest that the relationship between Father and Son has existed for all eternity and is grounded in ontological equality. Also worth consideration are the words of the Nicene Creed and the Westminster Confession of Faith as they pertain to eternal generation:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. (Nicene Creed)
In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. (WCF, II.3)
Based on Scripture and the witness of the creeds and confessions, we can be sure that the doctrine of eternal generation is biblical.
What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org
What is the doctrine of eternal generation and is it biblical? Is God the Father eternally generating God the Son?
www.gotquestions.org
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