Jesus Died For You To Be Saved

[KV-44-v1]

Is that addressed to me as well? If so, I'm not sure what your point is.

Yes.

All his sins.

Mm, no.
He was basically telling us that he "sins no more". That would mean he no longer idolizes, lusts, etc.

If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are leading astray, and the truth is not in us. If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned and are now in a state where we do not sin, a liar we are making Him, and His word is not in us.

The point is, there is no distinction being made about sins before conversion and sins after. Therefore, it is referring to all sinning before and after conversion.

Big extrapolation. I see no logic in this.
Hopeful's view seems pretty straightforward.

Why should he?

So if He doesn't, how is the believer still "saved even after sinning"?

Most don't have it stated explicitly, although it can be said to be implied in the ambiguousness of English.

So there is a possibility, and perhaps even likelihood, that Hopeful's belief is correct. Ok

What Scripture doesn't demonstrate this? Most of the commands in the NT demonstrate this; it is one of the main reasons for all those books having been written.

Uhh, cleansed from ALL unrighteousness? Not just its effects, the exact word is "UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". Note the "all".
If this doesn't prove "sin no more believers" IDK what does.

There's no reason I know of that the commands in the NT should or would preclude Hopeful's belief. If Hopeful is right, Born Again Believers are always following them.

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Confess the sins you did before.
It just says sins, nothing about stuck-in-sinning Christians.

Prayer of a righteous person? How can anyone be righteous if believers are always stuck in sinning while on earth??
There's another Scripture that could back Hopeful.

1Co 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.
1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.
1Co 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
...
1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (ESV)

1Co 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Eating is an intentional act. So intentional sin is being described here?

The life of every Christian believer who has ever lived.

This assumes that Born Again Christians still sin.
Did you observe a proven Born Again Believer still sin, repent, sin, repent? And when? Details wanted.

Very bad fruit, based on exactly what John himself states in 1 John 1:8, 9.

In history, or predictions starting with "sinning believers" teaching? Probably the latter.

This could lead many new believers astray, as it really means that there is no such thing as sin after becoming a Christian.

This smells of strawman. Nobody was arguing that sin everywhere on earth disappears after becoming a Christian.

No such thing as future sins in a Born Again Believer? (assuming he / she doesn't willfully sin)
Actual teaching of Hopeful.

No such thing as sin? Straw man version. If that was the case, all humans would follow God and all demonic forces would do good. There'd be nothing to regret because since sin's existence was obliterated, there'd be no memory of it afterward.

"No such thing as X" has a meaning.

 

[KV-44-v1]

And, yet, every believer continues to struggle with sinning.

And if the believer struggles with sin, but doesn't actually do any sin, he hasn't sinned. Struggling with it doesn't necessitate caving to doing it.

Given what?

Given the green-highlighted text above.

only given ..... ....no Scripture.

Doubtful. why?
Romans 6.
And that "cleansed from all unrighteousness".

If believers just stopped sinning, then there would be no need to write commands to stop sinning.

I don't think so,,,,

Adam and eve had no sin before eating the fruit, and yet they needed a command. Your line of thought means that Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

And still no, if believers no longer sin, they always follow them, according to Hopeful's view.

If you tell a dog to never bark, and he always barks, what is the need for a no barking law?
But if he never barks again, then the law worked.

So it's the "sinning believers" view that does what you claim Hopeful's does.
NOT Hopeful's.

 

[KV-44-v1]

And what do you have to provide to the discussion?

[Your view is] a sad cycle. Belief, fall, belief fall. "Hopeful" 's name makes sense now.
One can't serve two masters.
Do you believe that you, along with every Born Again Christian, serve two?

 

[KV-44-v1]

“Perfectly sinless” and still may not be perfect enough to be saved in the end. Must be a terrible feeling.

Willfull sin is a threatening factor in both Hopeful's view and yours.

It is, in reality.

 

[brightfame52]

The prayer isn't a conditional statement that only has application if the son of perdition hears it. Judas is directly mentioned in John 17:12. Of all of Jesus' disciples, none were lost except Judas therefore he is the son of perdition. Judas was given to Jesus, Jesus turns none away who are given to him, and he gives eternal life to those the Father gives him. Judas was lost, therefore he lost eternal life.

John 17
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The prayer stated judas was lost, the exact opposite of having been given eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

I think the word "saved" may be a misnomer.
As salvation won't be assured until the Lord's return-day of judgement, the word "converted" would fit better.
Man can rescind his conversion.

Yes, but sometimes I think people use the word "saved" in a general all-inclusive sense, but it doesn't apply that way in the Bible. People can be saved now, yes, but they don't have eternal life yet. They can have the conditional guarantee now of the inheritance of eternal life, and salvation from their sins now, but the judgement hasn't been passed and the gift hasn't been given. The Bible is indeed clear that Christians will go through a works-based judgement before the gift is given or not.

 

[Runningman]

The prayer stated judas was lost, the exact opposite of having been given eternal life.

Can't be lost unless prior to this he was in possession by Jesus. Therefore, he lost eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Can't be lost unless prior to this he was in possession by Jesus. Therefore, he lost eternal life.

Sure you can be lost by never being saved. All the non elect are that way, they are born into the world having been predetermined to go to hell for their sins, they are what scripture call vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction, which judas was one of them Rom 9:20-22

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction
The word destruction here is the exact same word Jesus used for judas here for perdition Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

judas never had a possibility of ever being saved from perdition,neither does any of the vessels of wrath.

 

[Runningman]

Sure you can be lost by never being saved. All the non elect are that way, they are born into the world having been predetermined to go to hell for their sins, they are what scripture call vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction, which judas was one of them Rom 9:20-22

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction
The word destruction here is the exact same word Jesus used for judas here for perdition Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

judas never had a possibility of ever being saved from perdition,neither does any of the vessels of wrath.

God saved Judas, told him he would have eternal life, then suddenly rescinded it and destroyed him doesn't make sense because it implies lying. The solution is Judas was given to Jesus, but ultimately lost as Jesus plainly stated in John 17:12.

So your interpretation of Romans 9:20-22 doesn't mesh well with Scripture. Romans 9:20-22 is about humans in general who are all going to perish sooner or later anyway, i.e., everyone is a vessel of destruction in some sense. Yet God has mercy on those who believe and repent of their sins. For God does not will that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. He is patiently waiting, for now.

 

[brightfame52]

God saved Judas, told him he would have eternal life, then suddenly rescinded it and destroyed him doesn't make sense because it implies lying. The solution is Judas was given to Jesus, but ultimately lost as Jesus plainly stated in John 17:12.

So your interpretation of Romans 9:20-22 doesn't mesh well with Scripture. Romans 9:20-22 is about humans in general who are all going to perish sooner or later anyway, i.e., everyone is a vessel of destruction in some sense. Yet God has mercy on those who believe and repent of their sins. For God does not will that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. He is patiently waiting, for now.

God saved judas ? More reading into scripture whats not there.

 

[Free]

One perfect lap won't win a two mile race.
Paul wrote..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13)
Who is working in the sinners ?

This is interesting. You're quoting Scripture that contradicts your position. You ask, "Who is working in the sinners?," where you believe anyone who isn't saved is a sinner, and anyone who sins isn't saved. But you're so focused on the fact that God is working in people, that you don't seem to realize that Paul is writing to believers, not "sinners," in the sense that you use the term.

What do you think Paul means by "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

It's worth noting that we also see commands to these believers, which makes no sense if believers cannot sin:

Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. (ESV)

Salvation is a work of God from start to finish and if he says that he will bring it to completion, then he will bring it to completion. This is why Paul says "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Additionally:

Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (ESV)

Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

So, salvation is spoken of as something done in the past (justification), ongoing in the present (sanctification), and will be fully realized in the future (glorification). This is why Paul says at the beginning of Philippians:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

While all true believers likely doubt from time to time, we do have the confidence that God will remain true to his promise, and it isn't a matter of finding out in the end. Those who will find out in the end are those who think they're saved, but are not. One of the assurances a person is truly saved is if they feel conviction for when they sin and quickly confess to God, so that he will "forgive us our sins and . . . cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And that is to be done daily.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, but sometimes I think people use the word "saved" in a general all-inclusive sense, but it doesn't apply that way in the Bible. People can be saved now, yes, but they don't have eternal life yet. They can have the conditional guarantee now of the inheritance of eternal life, and salvation from their sins now, but the judgement hasn't been passed and the gift hasn't been given. The Bible is indeed clear that Christians will go through a works-based judgement before the gift is given or not.

Hence...misnomer.

 

[Free]

Yes.

Okay, but I still don't know what your point is.

Mm, no.
He was basically telling us that he "sins no more". That would mean he no longer idolizes, lusts, etc.

You seem to have missed my point, which is that every believer still sins. So, if someone professes to be a believer but denies they sin when they actually do sin, that is to call their sin "not sin." That is what is so offensive to God about a professed believer making such a statement--it makes God a liar, as John says.

Big extrapolation. I see no logic in this.

That's fine because I know it isn't a big extrapolation and is quite logical, especially given the context.

You had stated:

'These verses seem to be talking about if someone says "theyve never sinned before".
I don't see anything indicating people saying "never sinning again from repentance, onward".'

But, there is nothing that supports that.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (ESV)

Hopeful's view seems pretty straightforward.

It really isn't though, if you put some thought into what he says and compare it to what Scripture says.

So if He doesn't, how is the believer still "saved even after sinning"?

Sin doesn't affect a believers standing in God. They are justified, declared righteous based on Christ's imputed righteousness. It does affect a believer's relationship with God, just as sinning against one's spouse affects that relationship without severing it. This is precisely why John also says:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

So there is a possibility, and perhaps even likelihood, that Hopeful's belief is correct. Ok

No, not a chance. It's in the Greek and although the English does support such a reading, it is affected by the ambiguity of the English language.

Uhh, cleansed from ALL unrighteousness? Not just its effects, the exact word is "UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". Note the "all".
If this doesn't prove "sin no more believers" IDK what does.

How, exactly, does that show that believers no longer sin? You claim it does, but you haven't shown that it does.

There's no reason I know of that the commands in the NT should or would preclude Hopeful's belief. If Hopeful is right, Born Again Believers are always following them.

It seems, then, that you haven't really thought things through. If believers automatically never sin again after justification, then any and all commands for believers to stop sinning or to watch their behaviour lest they sin, are utterly meaningless. Many commands in the NT address actual sin in the Church by actual believers.

Confess the sins you did before.
It just says sins, nothing about stuck-in-sinning Christians.

Prayer of a righteous person? How can anyone be righteous if believers are always stuck in sinning while on earth??
There's another Scripture that could back Hopeful.

No, it's talking about confessing one's current sins.

Eating is an intentional act. So intentional sin is being described here?

They were being too flippant and were sinning, although they may not have realized it, hence Paul's need to address it.

This assumes that Born Again Christians still sin.
Did you observe a proven Born Again Believer still sin, repent, sin, repent? And when? Details wanted.

In every believer I have ever known, myself included. It's a part of the human condition. This is John's whole point in 1 John 1:8, 10--all believers sin, and one who professes to be a believer but claims to be without sin, is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them. This is why he says in verse 9 that believers are to "keep on confessing" (A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament) our sins (plural) for God's forgiveness and cleansing.

In history, or predictions starting with "sinning believers" teaching? Probably the latter.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

This smells of strawman. Nobody was arguing that sin everywhere on earth disappears after becoming a Christian.

No, there is no straw man because nowhere did I even come close to making the argument "that sin everywhere on earth disappears after becoming a Christian." I'm not even quite sure what you mean by that.

No such thing as future sins in a Born Again Believer? (assuming he / she doesn't willfully sin)
Actual teaching of Hopeful.

Which goes against Scripture.

No such thing as sin? Straw man version. If that was the case, all humans would follow God and all demonic forces would do good. There'd be nothing to regret because since sin's existence was obliterated, there'd be no memory of it afterward.

"No such thing as X" has a meaning.

Please try and take my arguments in context and put some thought into them to try and understand what I am actually saying.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is interesting. You're quoting Scripture that contradicts your position. You ask, "Who is working in the sinners?," where you believe anyone who isn't saved is a sinner, and anyone who sins isn't saved. But you're so focused on the fact that God is working in people, that you don't seem to realize that Paul is writing to believers, not "sinners," in the sense that you use the term.

God is not working in them, or through them.
It is the devil working in and through them !

What do you think Paul means by "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

He means, mind your Ps and Qs .
Don't get lazy.
One sin will manifest from whom one is born.

It's worth noting that we also see commands to these believers, which makes no sense if believers cannot sin:

That is just it.
Believers can sin.
Belief can fade under duress.

Salvation is a work of God from start to finish and if he says that he will bring it to completion, then he will bring it to completion. This is why Paul says "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

His salvation "will be" revealed on the day of judgement.

Additionally:

Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (ESV)

Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

So, salvation is spoken of as something done in the past (justification), ongoing in the present (sanctification), and will be fully realized in the future (glorification). This is why Paul says at the beginning of Philippians:

At least you are willing to admit salvation won't be realized until the future.

While all true believers likely doubt from time to time, we do have the confidence that God will remain true to his promise, and it isn't a matter of finding out in the end. Those who will find out in the end are those who think they're saved, but are not. One of the assurances a person is truly saved is if they feel conviction for when they sin and quickly confess to God, so that he will "forgive us our sins and . . . cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And that is to be done daily.

God will remain true to His promise.
Will we remain true to our promise ?
Our promise is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength; and love our neighbor as we love ourself.
If one sins, they show that they love themselves more that they love God.
Sin is a promise breaker.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Okay, but I still don't know what your point is.


You seem to have missed my point, which is that every believer still sins. So, if someone professes to be a believer but denies they sin when they actually do sin, that is to call their sin "not sin." That is what is so offensive to God about a professed believer making such a statement--it makes God a liar, as John says.


That's fine because I know it isn't a big extrapolation and is quite logical, especially given the context.

You had stated:

'These verses seem to be talking about if someone says "theyve never sinned before".
I don't see anything indicating people saying "never sinning again from repentance, onward".'

But, there is nothing that supports that.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (ESV)


It really isn't though, if you put some thought into what he says and compare it to what Scripture says.


Sin doesn't affect a believers standing in God. They are justified, declared righteous based on Christ's imputed righteousness. It does affect a believer's relationship with God, just as sinning against one's spouse affects that relationship without severing it. This is precisely why John also says:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)


No, not a chance. It's in the Greek and although the English does support such a reading, it is affected by the ambiguity of the English language.


How, exactly, does that show that believers no longer sin? You claim it does, but you haven't shown that it does.


It seems, then, that you haven't really thought things through. If believers automatically never sin again after justification, then any and all commands for believers to stop sinning or to watch their behaviour lest they sin, are utterly meaningless. Many commands in the NT address actual sin in the Church by actual believers.


No, it's talking about confessing one's current sins.


They were being too flippant and were sinning, although they may not have realized it, hence Paul's need to address it.


In every believer I have ever known, myself included. It's a part of the human condition. This is John's whole point in 1 John 1:8, 10--all believers sin, and one who professes to be a believer but claims to be without sin, is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them. This is why he says in verse 9 that believers are to "keep on confessing" (A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament) our sins (plural) for God's forgiveness and cleansing.


I don't understand what you're saying here.


No, there is no straw man because nowhere did I even come close to making the argument "that sin everywhere on earth disappears after becoming a Christian." I'm not even quite sure what you mean by that.


Which goes against Scripture.


Please try and take my arguments in context and put some thought into them to try and understand what I am actually saying.

Unfortunately, your context is that nobody loves God enough to obey Him for the rest of their lives.
I disagree with that inanity.

 

[Free]

And if the believer struggles with sin, but doesn't actually do any sin, he hasn't sinned. Struggling with it doesn't necessitate caving to doing it.

Again, please take my comments and arguments in context. I am the one saying that Christians continue to struggle with sin, by which I clearly mean, that they actually still sin.

Given the green-highlighted text above.

That is not a sufficient answer. You are now arguing to an incorrect understanding of what I have said in an attempt to support your previous argument. You still have not given any Scripture to support anything.

Doubtful. why?
Romans 6.
And that "cleansed from all unrighteousness".

Anyone can quote Scripture. What does that mean? What is Paul saying with that statement?

I don't think so,,,,

Adam and eve had no sin before eating the fruit, and yet they needed a command. Your line of thought means that Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

No. Your conclusion doesn't follow. The command was to prevent them from sinning, yet they sinned, despite being sinless beforehand. The important point to note here is that they were sinless, in the Garden of Eden, having direct communion and communication with God. And yet they still sinned.

How much more then do believers, who have a sinful nature but are saved from the power of sin, and who still live in a sinful world, need commands to not sin, to try and prevent them from sinning and encourage them not to sin? But, again, those commands are pointless if, as Hopeful 2 believes, believers automatically stop sinning.

And still no, if believers no longer sin, they always follow them, according to Hopeful's view.

If you tell a dog to never bark, and he always barks, what is the need for a no barking law?
But if he never barks again, then the law worked.

So it's the "sinning believers" view that does what you claim Hopeful's does.
NOT Hopeful's.

With all due respect, I don't think you fully grasp this discussion and Hopeful 2's position. And your analogy to the barking dog misses the mark.

 

[Free]

Unfortunately, your context is that nobody loves God enough to obey Him for the rest of their lives.
I disagree with that inanity.

No, that would be a misrepresentation of my position. I disagree with such a belief as well. Any true believer loves God so much that they want to obey him and will try to obey him continually. The reality is that all believers still fail at times, relying on their own strength rather than the Spirit's, in a number of ways. But, then they get back up and get back to obeying and trying to obey with the help of the Spirit. This is the process of sanctification--"are being saved."

Care to address any specifics in that post?

 

[brightfame52]

Unfortunately, your context is that nobody loves God enough to obey Him for the rest of their lives.
I disagree with that inanity.

Do you obey God as perfectly as Jesus did when He lived on this earth in the flesh ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

My friend, you cannot take epistles written to saints and apply them to sinners. It is written: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For example, Romans is written to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints.

And Ephesians, it is written to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Also, you never wrote how men can obey the gospel to become christians. Jesus Christ showed unto his apostles that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

And that is what they did when the New Testament began on the day of pentecost, saying: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is no such thing as a "sinner's prayer", sir.

Remember what the Holy Ghost said by his apostle: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Good work. Not every believer wants to preach repentance from sinning, but go straight to salvation by faith alone.

What we are seeing here, is the difference between repentance unto salvation, and salvation without repentance.

That difference is not only in deeds, but also in words. Your's are clear and distinct and easy to be understood. It's just a matter of believing and doing them for Jesus' sake, or not.

The other one is full of high sounding words, that leave people confused about exactly how we are not judged as a sinner, while still sinning with the world. Or, how can we possibly be reckoned righteous like Jesus, without living like Him.

Salvation without repentance is religion without change.

No one likes raining on someone's pretty parade, but what if it's heading into a ditch?

Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 

[Runningman]

God saved judas ? More reading into scripture whats not there.

Yes that's what the evidence says. Judas was given to Jesus, Jesus turns none away, and gives eternal life to those given to him, but Judas (the son of perdition) was lost. The point is Judas lost his salvation or perhaps forfeited it.