Jesus Died For You To Be Saved

[RBDERRICK]

Justification is the initial point of salvation when Christ’s righteousness is imputed through faith in his person and work.

Where does the Bible ever say we must have faith in Jesus Christ, and in His work, else we cannot be saved?

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Unless you are speaking of faith in His resurrection from the dead, as being His work.

In any case, I would avoid the appearance of adding anything to Scripture of salvation, by preaching we must believe in His person and work, in order to be saved.

 

[Free]

Where does the Bible ever say we must have faith in Jesus Christ, and in His work, else we cannot be saved?

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Unless you are speaking of faith in His resurrection from the dead, as being His work.

Obviously it does. It’s everything he claims to be, his sinlessness, his death, and his resurrection. There are many places where it says we must have faith in the person and work of Christ. Some of it is implicit, some explicit.

In any case, I would avoid the appearance of adding anything to Scripture of salvation, by preaching we must believe in His person and work, in order to be saved.

That isn’t adding, that is Scripture, as you have proven with Romans 10:9.

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, they don’t. I have never heard or read anyone teach that.

It does not mean no one has taught that.

And it largely comes down to not understanding what justification actually means, or at least that there is more than one meaning.

Exactly. There is more than one teaching on justification by faith alone, even as more than one teachiung on water baptism in the name of Christ, more than one on the second coming of Christ, etc...

You have some fundamental misunderstandings about Christian doctrine

2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

6. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong,” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.

If the moderators don't keep their own rules, how can they expect others to.

that you need to get right so you stop misrepresenting those you disagree with.

Now you resort to personal accusations, that make no sense. Who have I misrepresented that I don't agree with? Certainly not the ones that have preached justification without repentance. Nor you, since you have only got angry about it, and have taught anything for yourself.

You might find you actually do agree with them once you understand correctly.

Not with them that preach justification by faith alone, without repentance, nor any works ever having to do with being justified by their faith alone. Which you also obviously disagree with, and apparently can't even believe any Christian believer would ever teach such a thing.

I didn't either, until I heard it for myself. Some even say all their past, present, and future sins are already forgiven, once they believe on the name of Jesus Christ.

Because you don’t understand what “faith alone” means, and that despite repeated attempts to correct you.

Once again, you're not making any sense to me. You haven't even attempted to teach your doctrine on faith alone, much less correct me on what you would teach about it.

2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

6. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong,” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.

The rules, that you are supposed to know and adhere to above all others, are in place specifically so that believers who disagree over doctrine, spend quality time on the Scriptural disagreement, and useless time on personal observations, accusations, and insults about one another.

And this is pretty much exactly what justification by faith alone teaches.

You agree I know the Scriptural teaching of imputed righteousness without works.

But it's not at all the same as justification by faith alone, with or without repentance.

See, you do agree, you just so misunderstand the doctrine, willingly at this point,

Last warning. This is a false accusation of my character and purposes.

2. Focus on the issue being discussed. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

I never willingly 'misunderstand' what others say, but the opposite. I actually give more attention to detail withj them, that I don't already agree with. If they can correct me by Scripture, than that's great. The teaching of Christ is better perfected. And if not, then I learn more about what not to teach. It's why I am so acquainted with some teachings of others, that some believers have never even heard of.

that you think it’s different from what you believe.

What I believe is different, is imputed righteousness without works, vs justification by faith alone.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not according to @Hopeful 2. Believers cannot sin according to his position; if they do, then they aren’t believers.

OH, OH!!!

 

[RBDERRICK]

There are many places where it says we must have faith in the person and work of Christ. Some of it is implicit, some explicit.

I'll take one explicit one. If not, then explain the implicit ones, that imply we must believe in Jesus Christ, and His work, to be saved and justified by Him.

Luk 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Of course we ought believe all that the Scriptures say of Jesus Christ. But only to learn of Him and grow in knowledge of the Lord, not to be saved by knowledge of such things.

Especially since teaching such things are not always agreed upon, and believers begin to charge one another with not being saved, simply because they do not agree on them

That isn’t adding, that is Scripture, as you have proven with Romans 10:9.

If faith in the work of Christ, is beleiving in His resurrection, then I agree.

I still wouldn't preach faith in Jesus Christ and His work. But rather faith in Jesus Christ and His resurrection.

His work can include His work on earth, which we see is learning the Scriptures concerning Him. Which is with conversion, not for conversion.

Teaching the resurrection of Christ, is not teaching work of Christ done on earth. We must believe in His resurrection to be saved. Believing in His work on earth learned by Scripture, is not for salvation.

It’s everything he claims to be, his sinlessness,

Such as here. His manner of life on earth is learned by studying Scripture, once we recieve His Spirit by hearing with faith.

Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

We do not recieve His Spirit by faith and learning His work of what He said and did on earth.

You've mentioned His sinless living. What other work of Jesus on earth must we believe to be saved? Healings? Casting out devils?

In this way, salvation by believing in His work on earth, leads to faith by works and sight, not by hearing and receiving the truth with the heart, to do it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

They only make sense if believers still sin.


Not according to Hopeful 2. Believers cannot sin according to his position; if they do, then they aren’t believers.

Believers can become ex-believers.

I know what it means, but since a believer “always” follow Scripture perfectly and act and think and talk perfectly at all times, then it follows that they are incapable of sin.

That is a good way to look at it, because you may remember it when you are tempted.
It is the unbeliever who doubts Jesus' words about the workers of iniquity in Matt 7:23.
Believers know that 1 Cor 10:13 is true !
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
The escapes are always there, thanks be to God !

In reality, this is not the case and never has been. That is what John is addressing in 1 John 1:8-2:1. It is precisely why there are so many commands for believers in the NT.

John is addressing two kinds of walk.
One, in darkness-sin.
The other, in God-that light.
It is our choice in which we live.

Hopeful 2 said that a believer won’t know they are saved until they stand before Christ and find out. But that is unbiblical, as the verses I gave point out. Please, don’t just respond to things without going back to understand the context.

Do you know what you will have for dinner on July 21, 2030 ?
How can you know you will not abandon Jesus before your vessel's death ?

It doesn’t. Again, believers are justified and have been freed from the penalty of sin.

Past sins.

But it doesn’t mean they suddenly become perfectly sinless. That is heresy.

Don't you believe in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
After my sins were remitted, I was perfectly sinless.
It is now my prerogative to remain in the light.

 

[Hopeful 2]

OH, OH!!!
View attachment 16425

Man can only serve one master.
It may be Jesus, or it may be sin.

 

[Runningman]

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

No I would not frame it as a failure. Judas was lost because of his choice to be extremely wicked. People can lose their salvation in real Christianity.

 

[electedbyHim]

No I would not frame it as a failure. Judas was lost because of his choice to be extremely wicked. People can lose their salvation in real Christianity.

Someone who is truly regenerated cannot never turn their back on Christ, they can never walk away.

Those that believe they can leave the faith, were never regenerated to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.

 

[KV-44-v1]

They only make sense if believers still sin.

No, see my "dog scenario".

Not according to @Hopeful 2. Believers cannot sin according to his position; if they do, then they aren’t believers.

Show me where he said that believers cannot willfully sin?

In reality, this is not the case and never has been. That is what John is addressing in 1 John 1:8-2:1. It is precisely why there are so many commands for believers in the NT.

It can be the case and for many it always has been. It's why there are commands. What use do you think is an ineffective command?
This arg holds as much weight as yours.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Someone who is truly regenerated cannot never turn their back on Christ, they can never walk away.

Those that believe they can leave the faith, were never regenerated to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.

Then you can never know if you are saved. What if, in the future, you will turn your back on God?
Your position is very scary, and makes some people unsaveable at any point in time if true.

I thought the Gospel was GOOD news, not "worry if you are saved but will rebel in the future" news.

 

[electedbyHim]

Then you can never know if you are saved. What if, in the future, you will turn your back on God?
Your position is very scary, and makes some people unsaveable at any point in time if true.

I thought the Gospel was GOOD news, not "worry if you are saved but will rebel in the future" news.

This is just not Biblical or true.

Lack of assurance will make one doubt "worry" if they are really saved, and there are many reasons fro that lack of assurance.

Your position is very scary, and makes some people unsaveable at any point in time if true.

My position is scary, your comment does not make any sense. Please explain.

If you would like more understanding on this I created a thread here...

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

 

[Free]

I'll take one explicit one. If not, then explain the implicit ones, that imply we must believe in Jesus Christ, and His work, to be saved and justified by Him.

As I pointed out, you already gave one.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Here are a couple more:

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (ESV)

Luk 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Of course we ought believe all that the Scriptures say of Jesus Christ. But only to learn of Him and grow in knowledge of the Lord, not to be saved by knowledge of such things.

Especially since teaching such things are not always agreed upon, and believers begin to charge one another with not being saved, simply because they do not agree on them

Clearly John and Paul disagree. We cannot put our faith in a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible. Could you truly love a woman that you did not know? Would you trust just anyone you came across on the street to watch over your unlocked house or watch over any children you might have, or would you only trust someone you knew?

If faith in the work of Christ, is beleiving in His resurrection, then I agree.

I still wouldn't preach faith in Jesus Christ and His work. But rather faith in Jesus Christ and His resurrection.

His work can include His work on earth, which we see is learning the Scriptures concerning Him. Which is with conversion, not for conversion.

Teaching the resurrection of Christ, is not teaching work of Christ done on earth. We must believe in His resurrection to be saved. Believing in His work on earth learned by Scripture, is not for salvation.

His work on Earth is so that we can believe who Jesus is "and that by believing [we] may have life in his name." His work is intrinsically linked to who he is. Not to mention his work includes his death on the cross for our sins, without which there is no forgiveness of sins.

Such as here. His manner of life on earth is learned by studying Scripture, once we recieve His Spirit by hearing with faith.

Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

We do not recieve His Spirit by faith and learning His work of what He said and did on earth.

You've mentioned His sinless living. What other work of Jesus on earth must we believe to be saved? Healings? Casting out devils?

You seem to keep ignoring the context of everything I have said and continue to take things in isolation. Just as with Scripture, that will lead you to misunderstand what is being said. His works prove who he claimed to be, God in human flesh. His death for our sins was the main work he came to accomplish, and his resurrection means he has defeated death and we, too, can have eternal life, if we put our faith in him and his work and make him Lord of our lives.

In this way, salvation by believing in His work on earth, leads to faith by works and sight, not by hearing and receiving the truth with the heart, to do it.

How, exactly, does it lead "to faith by works and sight"? You make a number of claims without evidence or showing the reasoning.

The issue is that if one doesn't believe in the work of Christ, then they likely don't even know why they have to put their faith in him in the first place. If they don't understand that he died for our sins, then it may be that they don't understand their sinful state and what that means for eternity. They might just think Jesus was a good moral teacher and that their own works will get them into heaven.

There must be an understanding of why they need a Saviour. Which means they must also understand the purpose of Jesus's death, what it and his resurrection accomplished. That means they must also understand who he is, which is proven by his earthly ministry.

 

[Free]

No, see my "dog scenario".

I've already stated that it misses the mark and so isn't relevant as an example.

Show me where he said that believers cannot willfully sin?

He has said it numerous times. I suggest that you go back and read so that you can be more aware of what is being stated.

It can be the case and for many it always has been. It's why there are commands. What use do you think is an ineffective command?
This arg holds as much weight as yours.

I don't know what your point is here or what "argument" you have made.

 

[brightfame52]

No I would not frame it as a failure. Judas was lost because of his choice to be extremely wicked. People can lose their salvation in real Christianity.

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Runningman]

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Nope. Sheep can go astray and, unfortunately, not be recovered again. Seems to be what happened to Judas.

Matthew 18
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Someone who is truly regenerated cannot never turn their back on Christ, they can never walk away.

In spite of your double-negative, you are correct.
The truly regenerated will never serve sin.

Those that believe they can leave the faith, were never regenerated to begin with.

Agreed.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.

Yep.
Those that depart have never known Him.
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

 

[brightfame52]

Nope. Sheep can go astray and, unfortunately, not be recovered again. Seems to be what happened to Judas.

Matthew 18
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Runningman]

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Nope. Entirely Judas' free will to betray Jesus, be lost, and fulfill prophecy. Nothing to do with failing on Jesus or God's part.

John 17
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope. Entirely Judas' free will to betray Jesus, be lost, and fulfill prophecy. Nothing to do with failing on Jesus or God's part.

John 17
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.