Jesus Died For You To Be Saved

[Hopeful 2]

Again, please take my comments and arguments in context. I am the one saying that Christians continue to struggle with sin, by which I clearly mean, that they actually still sin.


That is not a sufficient answer. You are now arguing to an incorrect understanding of what I have said in an attempt to support your previous argument. You still have not given any Scripture to support anything.


Anyone can quote Scripture. What does that mean? What is Paul saying with that statement?


No. Your conclusion doesn't follow. The command was to prevent them from sinning, yet they sinned, despite being sinless beforehand. The important point to note here is that they were sinless, in the Garden of Eden, having direct communion and communication with God. And yet they still sinned.

How much more then do believers, who have a sinful nature but are saved from the power of sin, and who still live in a sinful world, need commands to not sin, to try and prevent them from sinning and encourage them not to sin?

Those reborn of God's seed crucified their old man/sinful nature.
Gal 5:24..."And thy that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

But, again, those commands are pointless if, as Hopeful 2 believes, believers automatically stop sinning.

Ceasing from sin isn't "automatic."
It is the result of turning from sin, the death of the old man, rebirth from God's seed, and following the Spirit of God's leading.
The repentant will spend the rest of their lives resisting temptation.

With all due respect, I don't think you fully grasp this discussion and Hopeful 2's position. And your analogy to the barking dog misses the mark.

You are defending the version of a religion where it doesn't matter if you love God or neighbor with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[Free]

Good work. Not every believer wants to preach repentance from sinning, but go straight to salvation by faith alone.

Who teaches that? Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism teach that.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Who teaches that? Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism teach that.

Repentance unto salvation?

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

There are still some preachers of righteousness, preaching repent from sinning to be forgiven and saved from sinning by Jesus Christ.

Including the one I responded to agree with...

 

[brightfame52]

Yes that's what the evidence says. Judas was given to Jesus, Jesus turns none away, and gives eternal life to those given to him, but Judas (the son of perdition) was lost. The point is Judas lost his salvation or perhaps forfeited it.

God saved judas ? More reading into scripture whats not there.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Sits back and munches his

 

[Free]

Repentance unto salvation?



There are still some preachers of righteousness, preaching repent from sinning to be forgiven and saved from sinning by Jesus Christ.

Including the one I responded to agree with...

How does this answer my question?

You had stated: “Not every believer wants to preach repentance from sinning, but go straight to salvation by faith alone.”

And I asked who teaches that, because I don’t think I have ever seen or heard anyone teach that repentance isn’t necessary for salvation.

 

[Runningman]

God saved judas ? More reading into scripture whats not there.

So you don't believe the Lord then? He just plainly said in his prayer to God that he gives eternal life to those whom God gave him, but lost Judas.

John 17
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You had stated: “Not every believer wants to preach repentance from sinning, but go straight to salvation by faith alone.”

It's called the gospel of salvation by faith alone, without repentance. Very few believers preach it, where no works, good or bad, ever have anything to do with being justified by Christ.

Most preaching salvation by faith alone, also preach repentance after the fact, though they say it still never has anything to do with being justified by Christ.

The gospel of repentance unto salvation, preaches whole repentance of sinning for forgiveness of past sins, and justification by Christ is now doing good and not evil.

 

[Free]

It's called the gospel of salvation by faith alone, without repentance. Very few believers preach it, where no works, good or bad, ever have anything to do with being justified by Christ.

Most preaching salvation by faith alone, also preach repentance after the fact, though they say it still never has anything to do with being justified by Christ.

I have never heard anyone preach any of those things. It seems to me that you simply may not understand what “justification by faith alone” actually means.

The gospel of repentance unto salvation, preaches whole repentance of sinning for forgiveness of past sins, and justification by Christ is now doing good and not evil.

Of course repentance is necessary; repentance and faith go hand-in-hand for salvation. Justification is the initial point of salvation when Christ’s righteousness is imputed through faith in his person and work. All of it is a work of God by his grace, never by our works, righteous or otherwise.

 

[brightfame52]

So you don't believe the Lord then? He just plainly said in his prayer to God that he gives eternal life to those whom God gave him, but lost Judas.

John 17
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Where did Jesus say He saved judas and gave him eternal life ?

 

[brightfame52]

Repentance unto salvation?

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

There are still some preachers of righteousness, preaching repent from sinning to be forgiven and saved from sinning by Jesus Christ.

Including the one I responded to agree with...

Peter preached that Jesus gives repentance with forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

 

[Runningman]

Where did Jesus say He saved judas and gave him eternal life ?

Let me introduce you to John 17:2,12 and Matthew 19:27-30.

John 17
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Matthew 19
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

 

[KV-44-v1]

It's worth noting that we also see commands to these believers, which makes no sense if believers cannot sin:

Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

No, they ONLY make sense if believers don't sin.
Cannot? No, willful sin is still a possibility.
Hopeful's teaching would mean that believers always follow those Philippians verses, along with all other commands.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

Who is quoting Scripture that contradicts position?
The wages of sin is death. So how does "sin stuck believers" belief apply here?

 

[electedbyHim]

Let me introduce you to John 17:2,12 and Matthew 19:27-30.

John 17
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Matthew 19
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

That says nothing of the salavation of Judas.

Why is it so important to you that Judas was saved?

 

[RBDERRICK]

I have never heard anyone preach any of those things.

I know it's rare. It's also the purest doctrines of justification by faith alone. They never preach any repentance nor works ever have anything to do with being justified by faith alone.

Most preachers of justification by faith alone, call upon repentance after the fact. And it's only gradually implemented through life. They call it progressive repentance and sanctification. Some also begin to judge whether the faith is 'salvific'

It seems to me that you simply may not understand what “justification by faith alone” actually means.

I don't preach any kind of faith alone, except that such faith is dead to Christ and justifies no one having it.

Of course repentance is necessary; repentance and faith go hand-in-hand for salvation.

True. The Bible gospel is repentance unto salvation, not salvation without repentance, nor unto repentance. And the repantance is from all transgressions, to be saved from sins and trespasses.

All of it is a work of God by his grace, never by our works, righteous or otherwise.

True. Repentance from transgressions is not a work, but a ceasing of works. When we do so through faith in Jesus Christ, we are imputed His righteousness without works.

Heb 4:10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[brightfame52]

Let me introduce you to John 17:2,12 and Matthew 19:27-30.

John 17
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Matthew 19
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Nowhere is it stated Jesus gave judas eternal life or that he was ever saved, you are reading that ino the narrative. Since you have done that, you make Jesus a failure because you say He lost judas, yet those given to Christ in the salvific sense, it reads Jn 6:37-40


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You say Jesus lost judas, and consequently is cast out, and will not have everlasting life. You make Jesus Christ a failure in doing His Fathers will and losing nothing of whom He was given !

 

[Runningman]

Nowhere is it stated Jesus gave judas eternal life or that he was ever saved, you are reading that ino the narrative. Since you have done that, you make Jesus a failure because you say He lost judas, yet those given to Christ in the salvific sense, it reads Jn 6:37-40


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You're making my argument for me. Don't you see in the passage you provided that Jesus plans to resurrect all given to him on the last day? Judas was given to Jesus according to John 17:12. The only options are Judas still got eternal life or he lost/forfeited it. I must defer all judgement with God, but if the scripture is true (and I believe it is) then it's quite plain to me.

You say Jesus lost judas, and consequently is cast out, and will not have everlasting life. You make Jesus Christ a failure in doing His Fathers will and losing nothing of whom He was given !

The Bible doesn't say that. Perhaps it's Calvin who is a failure and not the Lord?

 

[brightfame52]

You're making my argument for me. Don't you see in the passage you provided that Jesus plans to resurrect all given to him on the last day? Judas was given to Jesus according to John 17:12. The only options are Judas still got eternal life or he lost/forfeited it. I must defer all judgement with God, but if the scripture is true (and I believe it is) then it's quite plain to me.

The Bible doesn't say that. Perhaps it's Calvin who is a failure and not the Lord?

So according to you Jesus fell short here of His Fathers will correct ? Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Free]

No, they ONLY make sense if believers don't sin.

They only make sense if believers still sin.

Cannot? No, willful sin is still a possibility.

Not according to Hopeful 2. Believers cannot sin according to his position; if they do, then they aren’t believers.

Hopeful's teaching would mean that believers always follow those Philippians verses, along with all other commands.

I know what it means, but since a believer “always” follow Scripture perfectly and act and think and talk perfectly at all times, then it follows that they are incapable of sin.

In reality, this is not the case and never has been. That is what John is addressing in 1 John 1:8-2:1. It is precisely why there are so many commands for believers in the NT.

Who is quoting Scripture that contradicts position?

Hopeful 2 said that a believer won’t know they are saved until they stand before Christ and find out. But that is unbiblical, as the verses I gave point out. Please, don’t just respond to things without going back to understand the context.

The wages of sin is death. So how does "sin stuck believers" belief apply here?

It doesn’t. Again, believers are justified and have been freed from the penalty of sin. But it doesn’t mean they suddenly become perfectly sinless. That is heresy.

 

[Free]

I know it's rare. It's also the purest doctrines of justification by faith alone. They never preach any repentance nor works ever have anything to do with being justified by faith alone.

Most preachers of justification by faith alone, call upon repentance after the fact. And it's only gradually implemented through life. They call it progressive repentance and sanctification. Some also begin to judge whether the faith is 'salvific'

No, they don’t. I have never heard or read anyone teach that. You have some fundamental misunderstandings about Christian doctrine that you need to get right so you stop misrepresenting those you disagree with. You might find you actually do agree with them once you understand correctly.

I don't preach any kind of faith alone, except that such faith is dead to Christ and justifies no one having it.

Because you don’t understand what “faith alone” means, and that despite repeated attempts to correct you.

True. Repentance from transgressions is not a work, but a ceasing of works. When we do so through faith in Jesus Christ, we are imputed His righteousness without works.

And this is pretty much exactly what justification by faith alone teaches. See, you do agree, you just so misunderstand the doctrine, willingly at this point, that you think it’s different from what you believe. And it largely comes down to not understanding what justification actually means, or at least that there is more than one meaning.