John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

[JLB]

Just getting any notions of sinlessness off the table. Which some here promote, surprisingly. I haven't posted here in quite awile. It seems to be a newer wrinkle


John 3:8 is clear about sin being "of the devil"

So is Mark 4:15 likewise clear about sin being of the devil i.e. theft of Word.

As is Satan's presentation of being a deceiver, a liar, a thief, a destroyer, a tempter and a killer, a capturer, the blinder of minds, the spirit of disobedience, all the bulk of which transpires in mankind.

I would only concur that whatever "lusts" people are prone to are courtesy of devils and as such, theirs to bear in particular.

James also acknowledges that believers can be prone to having devilish wisdom as well.

James 3:
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Seems rather obvious, doesn't it?

Let's presume that random evil thoughts are attributed to Satan/devils. That doesn't mean such things that transpire in us does NOT have repercussions, at least unto the perps. To think we skate for "their" intrusions is probably not true at all. We all pay a price in our own flesh for sin, which is ultimately death, the wages of sin. Romans 6:23, Romans 8:10

As to evil thoughts not being a big deal, Jesus did not cut us that kind of slack

Matthew 15:19-20 Mark 7:21-23 and Matthew 5:28 all show that evil thoughts defile us, and it's not presented as optional to have them


Big caveat with Jesus, that being "without sin"

I'm not jumping into the "I'm sinless" pool because it's a lie. Why? Because the tempter is jumping in as well, and I'm not cutting that bad actor a spittle of slack or excuse

We're forgiven

The devils are not

Therein resides the walk of Mercy in the Grace of God in Christ,, because apart from that, we'd be instant toast

Do you believe saints, those who are in Christ, are also at the same time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin?


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1

Saint — Strong's G40 - hagios

1. most holy thing, a saint

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you believe saints, those who are in Christ, are also at the same time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin?


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1

Saint — Strong's G40 - hagios

1. most holy thing, a saint

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

JLB

You know how I see these matters.

We all engage temptations of the tempter, internally, in mind, which places the worst sinner that ever existed where?

Mark 4:15 applies to everyone. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

Scripture doesn't see just and only people. It sees unsaved people as captives of the devil, and saved people as dominators over the devil

 

[JLB]

You know how I see these matters.

We all engage temptations of the tempter, internally, in mind, which places the worst sinner that ever existed where?

Mark 4:15 applies to everyone. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

Scripture doesn't see just and only people. It sees unsaved people as captives of the devil, and saved people as dominators over the devil

Can you answer the question?


This is a specific question. If you don’t know the answer, then say so.

If you you do know the answer, then please answer with a specific answer.


Yes, saints, those who are in Christ are also at the same time time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin.


No, saints who are in Christ, are holy; joined to Christ


Question:

• Do you believe saints, those who are in Christ, are also at the same time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin?

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1

Saint — Strong's G40 - hagios

1. most holy thing, a saint

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

 

[smaller]

Yes, saints, those who are in Christ are also at the same time time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin.


No, saints who are in Christ, are holy; joined to Christ

And why do you leave the tempter out of your setup questions?

I have pointed that direction repeatedly as the answer to your question.

Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The redeemed are forgiven, but not exempt from temptations of the other parties in addition to other vile works. The christian battlefield is filled with those who have lost that battle, perhaps thinking like most, that it was only them involved.

The devils are never forgiven

Their location hasn't changed

The wrestling match is personal, real, and internal

 

[JLB]

And why do you leave the tempter out of your setup questions?

I have pointed that direction repeatedly as the answer to your question.

Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The redeemed are forgiven, but not exempt from temptations of the other parties in addition to other vile works. The christian battlefield is filled with those who have lost that battle, perhaps thinking like most, that it was only them involved.

The devils are never forgiven

Their location hasn't changed

The wrestling match is personal, real, and internal

…the devil is a sinner, so he is in the question.


It seems to be apparent that you see born again Christians, faithful followers of Jesus Christ, (saints) as no different that those who are wicked, and devoted to sin, (sinners).



Question:

• Do you believe saints, those who are in Christ, are also at the same time, sinners; those who are devoted to sin?

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1


Saint — Strong's G40 - hagios

1. most holy thing, a saint

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

JLB

 

[smaller]

It seems to be apparent that you see born again Christians, faithful followers of Jesus Christ, (saints) as no different that those who are wicked, and devoted to sin, (sinners).

I have NEVER made such a claim or statement. Sorry

 

[brightfame52]

do you know what the term Total Depravity means?

Depravity Defined. Total depravity does not mean that everyone is as bad as he could possibly be in his actions, but total depravity means that man is as bad off as possible. Sin has pervaded everyone’s life. The totality of a human being is affected and infected by sin. That does not mean that the manifestation of sin is as bad as it could be in every area, but it means a person is defiled by sin in every area. It means there is nothing good or righteous in anyone. Relative Good. There is a concept referred to as relative good. Within certain confines, people can do relative good, but this relative good cannot become ultimate good. In the Scripture, ultimate good is that which is done for the honor and glory of God. In the ultimate sense that is the only thing which is truly good. Paul says, “Whatever is not from faith is sin” (Rom. 14:23). Does the unregenerate, unbelieving person ever do anything on the basis of faith in God relying upon Christ? Obviously not Rom.3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[JLB]

Depravity Defined. Total depravity does not mean that everyone is as bad as he could possibly be in his actions, but total depravity means that man is as bad off as possible. Sin has pervaded everyone’s life. The totality of a human being is affected and infected by sin. That does not mean that the manifestation of sin is as bad as it could be in every area, but it means a person is defiled by sin in every area. It means there is nothing good or righteous in anyone. Relative Good. There is a concept referred to as relative good. Within certain confines, people can do relative good, but this relative good cannot become ultimate good. In the Scripture, ultimate good is that which is done for the honor and glory of God. In the ultimate sense that is the only thing which is truly good. Paul says, “Whatever is not from faith is sin” (Rom. 14:23). Does the unregenerate, unbelieving person ever do anything on the basis of faith in God relying upon Christ? Obviously not Rom.3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Total Depravity is a man made term, that is designed to prop up a man made doctrine.

Total Depravity is not found in the Bible.

It's makes no sense to employ unbiblical words and terms upon scripture.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Total Depravity is a man made term, that is designed to prop up a man made doctrine.

Total Depravity is not found in the Bible.

It's makes no sense to employ unbiblical words and terms upon scripture.






JLB

Total depravity is true, its illustrated in the word of God.

 

[JLB]

Total depravity is true, its illustrated in the word of God.

Total Depravity is a “made up” phrase by man, and is unbiblical, meaning it is not found n the Bible. This means it’s “up for grabs” as to what the phrase actually means, and how it is to be applied, because it’s man made.


Please share the scripture passage that uses the phrase total depravity.


When you make up your own definitions and apply them to the scripture and then people, you have a recipe for false doctrine at best.

Most likely a doctrine of demons, which is what we have today so rampantly spreading through the Church.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


You would be well advised to know we won’t allow the spreading of these types of doctrines in this community, which can undermine the faith of some, and cause them to depart from the faith.




JLB

 

[JLB]

This thread has run it’s course.

 

[for_his_glory]

Total depravity is true, its illustrated in the word of God.

Scripture please.