John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

[JLB]

Mr. Quantrill insisted his scriptures state that Satan is or was Holy. Maybe someone else can pinpoint the fact, but alas, no one will because it's still not there, and no, they were not ignored. Don't know why you'd say that anyway

Do you think Satan was Holy? If so, I'd make the same request, to show it in writing

Do you believe God created Lucifer the angel, and Lucifer was cast out of heaven because of iniquity, and became Satan; the Enemy?


Or, do you believe God created Satan, as an evil angel to oppose Him and bring sin and destruction upon His creation?




JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you believe God created Lucifer the angel, and Lucifer was cast out of heaven because of iniquity, and became Satan; the Enemy?


Or, do you believe God created Satan, as an evil angel to oppose Him and bring sin and destruction upon His creation?


JLB

I believe what Jesus said is completely true and sufficient for these subjects:

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus did not say the devil used to have truth in him as a HOLY ANGEL, that's a certainty

 

[for_his_glory]

The presence of Satan in the form of internal temptation constitutes the most depraved being there is, therein

What more do you want to wrench out of the picture?

That human hearts are more depraved than Satan? An unlikely and scripturally closed avenue

It is Satan that is totally depraved. I have no idea what you mean by Internal temptation. Would that mean one would have to be indwelled with Satan in order to be totally depraved like we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise?

Nowhere in scripture that I am aware of teaches that people are as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind and strength. This doctrine of man teaches that as a consequence of man's fall every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and apart from the efficacious (irresistible) or prevenient (enabling) grace of God is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. It's taught by many denominations.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not defending the T. in Tulip.

See my post #(104).

But I do hold to total depravity for the reasons given.

Quantrill

I never said you did as that post was addressed to another member.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is this the definition the author of this thread had in mind?

Is Calvin the only one who held to a doctrine of total depravity?

As i have said, I hold to total depravity. That doesn't mean you can identify me with Calvins definition of depravity.

Total depravity---man is born a sinner and cannot save himself. Salvation is the work of God on man's behalf.

See again my post #(104).

Quantrill

That's your prerogative to hold to total depravity. I can not read minds, you will have to ask him. I said there were many denominations that teach total depravity as Calvin is just one of many. I never said you followed Calvin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't see the elimination of any sin in 1 John 3:8's statement nor can we eliminate the involvement of devils in the chain of events i.e. primarily temptations, but also deceptions, errors, false doctrines, internal Word theft, etc etc

I'd also observe it's a common mistake to say only external actions constitute sins, per Jesus in
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matt. 5:28

Short version. There are not sinless people other than Jesus. We all have evil thoughts which defile us, and it is virtually impossible to rule out the tempter from the matters

Are you not the temple of God as the Spirit of God dwells in you? If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us then there is no sin found in us as Satan and the Holy Spirit can not dwell in the same place. If you are defiling the temple willingly then you are putting the sacrifice of Christ to shame.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[for_his_glory]

Got to be aware of the caveats:

"in thy ways"

A perfect devil does not equate to a holy angel or God

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Why do you refute what has been written!!! We were all wonderfully made as God created us in the womb. When we were born we were born with a sin nature because of the fall of Adam, it doesn't mean we were born a sinner. How can a baby sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

Our exchange was relatively simple. I requested Mr. Quantrill to provide a single statement in the scriptures stating that Satan was Holy. Knowing in advance of course there is no such presentation anywhere in the scriptures.

Mr. Quantrill insisted his scriptures state that Satan is or was Holy. Maybe someone else can pinpoint the fact, but alas, no one will because it's still not there, and no, they were not ignored. Don't know why you'd say that anyway

Do you think Satan was Holy? If so, I'd make the same request, to show it in writing

And Quantrill did provide what you asked, but all you see are the words "in thy ways" relating that to evil in which Satan became when iniquity was found in him, but yet he was created perfect. God anointed this angel who was called Lucifer being an anointed cherub.

Thou art the anointed cherub. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What part of this do you not understand. It's pretty much black and white printed in Ezekiel 28:14-15.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've provided repeatedly Jesus statement of fact that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44, and that nowhere in the scriptures does it say Satan was holy anywhere.

Being a perfect devil from the beginning is far from holy.

No need to push further than the facts I provided above

You are not seeing it. Yes, Jesus said that in John 8:44, but from the beginning means when God set him in the garden of Eden as being the anointed cherub to enjoy what God created there and soon after, iniquity was found in him as this was before the creation of man. Created perfect as all of us are, but pride goeth before the fall.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you mean by Internal temptation.

Do we really have to discuss the fact that temptation thoughts transpire in mind?

Nowhere in scripture that I am aware of teaches that people are as a result of the fall,

Mark 4:15 was a reality for Adam and Eve, just as it is for us all.

Technically their fate was sealed the moment God spoke His first Words to them. Their flesh was bound to die the death of all natural people, as God planned. See 1 Cor. 15:42-46 for reference

The general issue perhaps is more about the captivity of mankind by devils, even though that captivity is unseen. And that captivity is eventually what destroys our bodies, ala Romans 8:10

Acts 26:18
2 Cor. 4:4
Eph. 2:2

Examples

IF we read scripture apart from awareness of the unseen captors, we're not getting anywhere close to an accurate picture. And I'd say the same about all observations that stem from that void

One observation I employ frequently is that the evil present withIN all people does not and can not be cooperative with God or follow the laws at all. Of course people will deny this to their dying breath, but the real question is, who is actually doing the denial? Them? Or that evil that Paul describes as "no longer I." Romans 7:7-21

I'd have to say, the latter

not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind and strength. This doctrine of man teaches that as a consequence of man's fall every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and apart from the efficacious (irresistible) or prevenient (enabling) grace of God is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. It's taught by many denominations.

When any of us come before God with a "whole heart" few consider the fact that we bring an evil conscience with us, Heb. 10:22

That evil conscience is very good at hiding itself, providing excuses, and blaming others, if you recall from the Garden account. And it's courtesy of the captives of humanity, unseen.

Who is really at the wheel of each person should always be in question.

Awareness does provide some degree of dominion, because, you see, the adversaries can't speak of these matters, truthfully. It's forbidden territory, for them to speak truth

 

[smaller]

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Why do you refute what has been written!!! We were all wonderfully made as God created us in the womb. When we were born we were born with a sin nature because of the fall of Adam, it doesn't mean we were born a sinner. How can a baby sin.

I've said repeatedly now that Satan being perfect has a very large attachment statement, or a caveat condition if you prefer, that being "in thy ways"

The question you could ask yourself is this: Can Satan be a perfect devil? I'd have to say, yes, indeed. Satan is a perfect devil. Satan is not God. Not as Perfect as God. Never was. Never will be.

And Satan was never Holy. The notion of Holy Satan does not exist in scripture.

Why so many try to make Satan the one time HOLY master should be a big red flag question to themselves, as to intent, which very well could have its origination, well, from Satan.

There is no need to continue to beat the Satan was holy bush. The simple fact will remain that not a single scripture states Satan was HOLY and this is a simple fact.

 

[smaller]

It's pretty much black and white printed

Please show where in any of these quotes Satan is HOLY.

It's a very simple question. And the likewise simple answer is there is no such statement in black and white, printed.

Jesus gave us the facts, that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, in addition to being the biggest liar and father of lies that has ever existed, with NO TRUTH in him. Not that Satan was once "in Truth." No truth in him. John 8:44

My general observation is that the Holy Satan story is largely a promotion or a concoction of the freewill, I can make a decision to be sinless and not end of up like Satan camps. Which positions I generally reject because they are simply not true.

There is no standard that any of us are saved because we choose to take the moral high ground. We are never saved by our own morality. We live that way because it is a path away from and contrary to entire slaveship to Satan, but this in no way makes any of our righteousness more than the filthy rags they are

 

[smaller]

from the beginning means

Oh, so you want to promote Satan has TWO beginnings now? One when created, supposedly HOLY, and another when placed in the Garden?

Nice try, but I'm going with Jesus on this one, that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, period. The Satan two beginnings theory doesn't really exist either.

IF Satan were once Holy, we might think Jesus would have at least informed us of that fact.

 

[stovebolts]

I didn't see the elimination of any sin in 1 John 3:8's statement nor can we eliminate the involvement of devils in the chain of events i.e. primarily temptations, but also deceptions, errors, false doctrines, internal Word theft, etc etc

There is no mention of elimination of sin in 1 John 1:9 nor were we discussing the elimination of sin, so I’m a bit perplexed by your reply.

Earlier you said sin was from Satan which is why I posted that verse. 1John 1:9 says, “Our sins”. It doesn’t say Satans sins.

While I agree that Satan can tempt us, our own desires I.E. our flesh can also lead us into temptation which leads to sin. James writes about this and I believe JLB already mentioned it.

I'd also observe it's a common mistake to say only external actions constitute sins, per Jesus in
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matt. 5:28

And we’re in agreement here.
If we explore this a bit deeper, let’s say a random evil thought pops into your head seemingly out of nowhere. Regardless if it’s Satan or our flesh, we are not responsible, nor held accountable for that thought. What we are responsible for, is the action we take with that thought. Do we embellish the thought which leads to sin? Or do we take it captive to Gods word?

Short version. There are not sinless people other than Jesus. We all have evil thoughts which defile us, and it is virtually impossible to rule out the tempter from the matters

Jesus was tempted, and he resisted and was without sin. If we follow Jesus, he has shown us the way to navigate temptation.

When we sin, we have a Father who desires to forgive us, and we have a savior who will never leave or forsake us.

In short, grace does not condone sin. Instead, grace says, “What you did was wrong, but Ive got you covered. Together, we’ll get you through this and you’ll hit the mark.”

 

[jaybo]

Our exchange was relatively simple. I requested Mr. Quantrill to provide a single statement in the scriptures stating that Satan was Holy. Knowing in advance of course there is no such presentation anywhere in the scriptures.

Mr. Quantrill insisted his scriptures state that Satan is or was Holy. Maybe someone else can pinpoint the fact, but alas, no one will because it's still not there, and no, they were not ignored. Don't know why you'd say that anyway

Do you think Satan was Holy? If so, I'd make the same request, to show it in writing

The definitions of "holy" are...

dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.
"the Holy Bible" ·
[more]
synonyms:
sacred · consecrated · hallowed · sanctified · venerated · revered · reverenced · divine · religious · blessed · blest · dedicated

• (of a person) devoted to the service of God.
  "saints and holy men"
  synonyms:
  saintly · godly · saintlike · pious · pietistic · religious · devout ·
  [more]
• morally and spiritually excellent.

Clearly, Satan is none of these. In fact, he's just the opposite. The concept seems like a sick joke IMHO.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do we really have to discuss the fact that temptation thoughts transpire in mind?

I asked you to give me your definition of this, but will move past that and reply to the rest of your post.

No one knows the working of Satan before they come to the Lord. It's only after learning of his devices by studting the scriptures as the Holy Spirit reveals all truths is when we become aware of them.

Evil runs rampant in the world working its iniquity as it is a mystery to those without understanding or truth, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12. But yet, Jesus has overcome the world, John 16:33, and has taught us how to be overcomers, Psalms 28:7; Romans 8:37; Ephesians 6:10-20; 1John 4:4; 5:4-5.

Mans theology says, man is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. This is a lie straight from Satan who clouds the mind of those without truth. It is God who calls us to His salvation that comes by His free gift of grace as He draws us to Him by His Holy Spirit.

It has always been man's freewill choice to either accept God's free gift or reject it. It has nothing to do with man being totally depraved as if they were none of us would have come to Christ.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Notice where Paul says "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing" as within the flesh dwells the sin nature we are all born with and all have sinned falling short of the glory of the Lord. But, now through God's plan of salvation those who are Spiritual born again from above are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit then there is no sin found in us. Greater is He that is in you then he that is in the world.

When we come to Christ we all come as a sinner (depraved), knowing we are, needing His grace. We are then renewed in our inner man (spirit/soul) filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've said repeatedly now that Satan being perfect has a very large attachment statement, or a caveat condition if you prefer, that being "in thy ways"

The question you could ask yourself is this: Can Satan be a perfect devil? I'd have to say, yes, indeed. Satan is a perfect devil. Satan is not God. Not as Perfect as God. Never was. Never will be.

And Satan was never Holy. The notion of Holy Satan does not exist in scripture.

Why so many try to make Satan the one time HOLY master should be a big red flag question to themselves, as to intent, which very well could have its origination, well, from Satan.

There is no need to continue to beat the Satan was holy bush. The simple fact will remain that not a single scripture states Satan was HOLY and this is a simple fact.

It doesn't matter what you think, but what has already been written that Lucifer was the anointed cherub created perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him while in the garden of Eden.

All angels were created holy, but some rebelled against God and followed after Satan and other ones who have fallen as they have left their first estate are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:6.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please show where in any of these quotes Satan is HOLY.

Have already showed you many times as he was created holy, but lost that status and as this angel became evil when iniquity was found in him after being placed in the garden of Eden and is no longer a holy angel of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please show where in any of these quotes Satan is HOLY.

It's a very simple question. And the likewise simple answer is there is no such statement in black and white, printed.

Jesus gave us the facts, that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, in addition to being the biggest liar and father of lies that has ever existed, with NO TRUTH in him. Not that Satan was once "in Truth." No truth in him. John 8:44

My general observation is that the Holy Satan story is largely a promotion or a concoction of the freewill, I can make a decision to be sinless and not end of up like Satan camps. Which positions I generally reject because they are simply not true.

There is no standard that any of us are saved because we choose to take the moral high ground. We are never saved by our own morality. We live that way because it is a path away from and contrary to entire slaveship to Satan, but this in no way makes any of our righteousness more than the filthy rags they are

I have already addressed this in every post I have replied to you with them. No one is saying that Satan is not evil, but that he was not created that way.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh, so you want to promote Satan has TWO beginnings now? One when created, supposedly HOLY, and another when placed in the Garden?

Nice try, but I'm going with Jesus on this one, that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, period. The Satan two beginnings theory doesn't really exist either.

IF Satan were once Holy, we might think Jesus would have at least informed us of that fact.

Where did I say Lucifer/Satan had two beginnings? What Jesus said is true, but only began to be when iniquity was found in him after God placed placed him in the garden of Eden.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Why did Lucifer fall from heaven, the answer is below.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

If you have a problem with what is written here in black and white then it's possibly that Satan is blinding you because you do not believe what has been written.