Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

Satan was involved in the betrayal, concerning Judas, as the scripture says.

Brilliant deduction.

Claiming that Satan was "in Peter", when Jesus spoke to Peter, is not found in the scriptures.

Jesus addressed Satan in Peter, quite clearly:

Matt. 16:
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

It's your positions outright refusal to see the obvious and insists to see only Peter that tears a hole in your positional row boat.

And, as duly noted prior, GOD HIMSELF also had the Over Riding Role:

It was GODS OWN WILL to smite the Shepherd and GODS OWN WILL to "scatter the sheep."

Judas was just a flesh pawn in the game. Judas had no choice whatsoever when GOD CAME TO DO HIS THINGS. Which is the larger point.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

That Will of God was not and could not have been thwarted or changed, period.

Whenever we read any line of text, there are 3 factors. The Active Will of God in 'all things.' The role of the unseen adveraries, and MAN.

I'd put man as the last member on the list of understandings, particularly when any "man" tries to dissect scripture apart from the workings of the TWO unseen parties also.

Scripture is always a 3 PARTY event.

 

[chessman]

Judas was one of His sheep

This Scripture does not say that Judas was one of Jesus' sheep.

Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:5-8,16

They were sent out "as sheep", "wise as serpents" and "harmless as doves".

That Text doesn't say they were His serpents, His doves or 'His sheep'.

So you are teaching us based on your version of the bible, that Judas Iscariot is the devil?

It's not my version of the Bible, it's Logos Bible Software's version.
And no I would answer anyone that asked me why I think Judas was not saved during the time you claim he was, and I quote, "saved for a while" by the very clear fact that Jesus said Judas was chosen as one of the 12 because he was the one who Jesus knew would side with Jesus Christ's adversaries. And Judas did exactly that, his whole time. Stealing the whole time too.

I don't believe Judas is the devil.

I don't believe Judas is Satan or (The Devil), either.

I know that Judas was the one disciple that was the adversary, however. Which was why Jesus picked him.

 

[chessman]

I have asked you several times.

I answered your question below from Scripture. See Acts 9 where Jesus chooses an unbeliever to do just those things.

Can you show from the scriptures whereby Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?

Will you answer my question, below?

Is it your opinion that Jesus loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to the hour that Satan entered Judas?

 

[MarkT]

Exactly. Like all the other unbelieving Pharisees who saw His miracles.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, NIV
John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." NIV

I was being facetious Free Grace. Sorry.

People believe with their heart FG. It's not will power, it's word power that makes men believe in Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas believed, and therefore he followed Jesus.

I missed the verse that said that he believed. Please provide it.

I have asked you several times.

As I have.

The scriptures says, these are the signs that follow those who believe: And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17
JLB

v.9-20 are not found in the earliest manuscripts, so this verse is not inspired. And I am still curious about the next verse. The one about handling snakes and drinking deadly poison. As part of these "signs will follow those who believe". What verse says that Judas handled snakes or drank deadly poison?

 

[atpollard]

The scriptures says, these are the signs that follow those who believe: And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17

Judas didn't speak with new tongues ... by YOUR argument, no sign means no belief.

 

[MarkT]

All you need to do, is show the scripture that says, Satan entered Peter, in order to prove your point that Satan was in Peter, when Jesus addressed Peter.




JLB

I'm perfectly OK with Jesus calling Peter Satan by proxy since he was acting for Satan.

 

[JLB]

Jesus addressed Satan in Peter, quite clearly:

Matt. 16:
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The scripture plainly says Jesus addressed Peter.


Jesus made it clear he was addressing Peter, himself, with this phrase... for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


Peter was the one being addressed, because he was was the one who said...“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Satan, on the other hand wanted Jesus murdered.

Peter did not.

Simple.


(Edited by staff}


Just like what verse 17 says:

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:17

• God revealed to Peter, who Jesus was.
• Peter himself made the choice to proclaim what He was shown.
• Peter was the one that was praised, for what he said.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

• Likewise, it was Peter who didn't want Jesus to be crucified, as he was just shown that Jesus was the Christ.

• It was Peter, who was called out again, by Jesus, but this time he was rebuked for being mindful of the things on men, rather than being mindful of the things of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Judas didn't speak with new tongues ... by YOUR argument, no sign means no belief.

Does it say all the signs will follow those who believe? No.

The scripture says these signs will follow those who believe.

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mark 16:17-18

I know believers who speak in tongues and have cast out devils, and laid hands of the sick, but have never had the opportunity to have been bitten by a snake and shake it off without being hurt, or have been poisoned without being hurt.

Maybe they will before it's over.

Now when they had escaped, they then found out that the island was called Malta. 2 And the natives showed us unusual kindness; for they kindled a fire and made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold. 3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” 5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god. Acts 28:1-6

Paul shook off the serpent, and came to no harm.

Does this mean the rest of the Apostles, were not believers, because they didn't have this happen to them?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm perfectly OK with Jesus calling Peter Satan by proxy since he was acting for Satan.

Are you perfectly ok with Jesus calling Peter, God the Father, since he was acting for God the Father?

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17



JLB

 

[JLB]

I answered your question below from Scripture. See Acts 9 where Jesus chooses an unbeliever to do just those things.

No scripture here.


Please post the scripture, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Does this mean the rest of the Apostles, were not believers, because they didn't have this happen to them?

Sorry, I was not the one who held Mark 16:17-18 as the 'shibboleth' of whether someone believed. You made that claim. I was just pointing out the obvious flaw in your argument.

If we embrace your current claim that the 'proof' of belief is performing ANY of the listed acts, then every herpetologist (including those who claim to be atheists) must actually 'believe'.

I would choose as the 'shibboleth' of belief something more like 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Wheat and tares, brother. They look the same at the start, but very different when they mature.

 

[chessman]

I have asked you several times.

No, you just asked me that question once in post #373 and I answered it Biblically in #377, 30 minutes later.

No scripture here.

Yes, Scripture was given (twice). Once in post #377 and again referenced in post #383.

Yes, absolutely. After Jesus' ressurection an unbelieving man (see Acts 9:1) was chosen by Jesus, promoted to Apostle and empowered to do all this.
Acts 9:15-16 (LEB)

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man [an unbeliever, v9:1] is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

I have asked you the following question several times and you've not answered it.

Is it your opinion that Jesus loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to the hour that Satan entered Judas?

I'm not even asking you for Scripture that says Jesus ever loved Judas. I'm just asking your opinion on this question.

 

[FreeGrace]

Does it say all the signs will follow those who believe? No.

OK. So, just HOW MANY signs prove that one believes then?

The scripture says these signs will follow those who believe.

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mark 16:17-18

Do you believe? I know you do. So, how many of these signs have followed you?

I know believers who speak in tongues and have cast out devils, and laid hands of the sick, but have never had the opportunity to have been bitten by a snake and shake it off without being hurt, or have been poisoned without being hurt.

Let's not make excuses. How many of these signs have actually followed you?

Maybe they will before it's over.

The subjunctive mood isn't found in Mark 16:17,18.

Now when they had escaped, they then found out that the island was called Malta. 2 And the natives showed us unusual kindness; for they kindled a fire and made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold. 3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” 5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god. Acts 28:1-6

We're not arguing about whether Paul was an apostle or that he believed.

Does this mean the rest of the Apostles, were not believers, because they didn't have this happen to them?

According to the logic presented in your posts, yep.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe? I know you do. So, how many of these signs have followed you?

Speaking in Tongues, Laying hands on the sick and them recovering, casting out devils.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Let's not make excuses. How many of these signs have actually followed you?

Speaking in Tongues, Laying hands on the sick and them recovering, casting out devils.



JLB

 

[JLB]

OK. So, just HOW MANY signs prove that one believes then?


Do you believe? I know you do. So, how many of these signs have followed you?


Let's not make excuses. How many of these signs have actually followed you?


The subjunctive mood isn't found in Mark 16:17,18.


We're not arguing about whether Paul was an apostle or that he believed.


According to the logic presented in your posts, yep.

Another post with no scripture.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8


Please post the scripture, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, absolutely. After Jesus' ressurection an unbelieving man (see Acts 9:1) was chosen by Jesus, promoted to Apostle and empowered to do all this.

Acts 9:15-16 (LEB)

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man [an unbeliever, v9] is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
Is it your opinion that Jesus loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to the hour that Satan entered Judas?

There is no scripture here that shows Jesus Christ, empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Can you show from the scriptures whereby Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, I was not the one who held Mark 16:17-18 as the 'shibboleth' of whether someone believed. You made that claim. I was just pointing out the obvious flaw in your argument.

Now when they had escaped, they then found out that the island was called Malta. 2 And the natives showed us unusual kindness; for they kindled a fire and made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold. 3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” 5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god. Acts 28:1-6

Paul shook off the serpent, and came to no harm.

Does this mean the rest of the Apostles, were not believers, because they didn't have this happen to them?

 

[JLB]

If we embrace your current claim that the 'proof' of belief is performing ANY of the listed acts, then every herpetologist (including those who claim to be atheists) must actually 'believe'.

Whose words are these?

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17


JLB