Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

Are you perfectly ok with Jesus calling Peter, God the Father, since he was acting for God the Father?

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17



JLB

That would be kind of awkward since Peter wasn't the Son of God.

I'm saying Peter was acting as an agent/servant of the Devil called 'Satan'. That's why Jesus called Peter, 'Satan'. Paul used the same devise in 2 Cor. 11 and 12 where he calls the Jews who beat him 'Satan' (agents of the Devil), and the disability he suffered at their hands 'a messenger of Satan'. 2 Cor. 12:7-10

I would say Jesus rebuked Satan through Peter.

 

[JLB]

I'm saying Peter was acting as an agent/servant of the Devil called 'Satan'. That's why Jesus called Peter, 'Satan'.

Jesus said to Peter he was being mindful of the things of men.

That tells us Peter was speaking from his own agenda, being in a leadership role, with the Son of God.

• On the other hand, Satan wanted Jesus dead, Peter did not.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

• Peter, through his own motive, didn't want Jesus to be killed.

• Satan, working through the elders and chief priests and scribes, did want Jesus to be killed.

So, in this instance, I don't see Peter being influenced and inspired by Satan, but rather, he was being mindful of his own agenda, and the things of man.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The scripture plainly says Jesus addressed Peter. Jesus made it clear he was addressing Peter, himself, with this phrase... for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Which Words were addressed to Satan, as previously and duly noted. Matt. 16:23.

Peter was the one being addressed, because he was was the one who said...“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Satan doesn't exist in your dissection of the matters, but IS there in writing to see. Without Satan as Satan the only reasonable alternative your position has is that Peter was Satan. I don't think anyone would be well advised to consider that to be the case.

Satan, on the other hand wanted Jesus murdered.

Well, at least you got SATAN back into the picture, and contrary to your own prior statement above: "The scripture plainly says Jesus addressed Peter."

Simple.

Indeed, when BOTH parties to the fact are on the table of fact, it is.

Peter was actually delivered a "KEY" to understanding scripture in that event. That "KEY" is the same as Mark 4:15. It is the same "KEY" that can be applied to the analysis of Judas, because SATAN was involved with Judas as well.

I cut the remained of your claims because you keep ignoring the role of Satan and only see Peter, even when you claim to also see Satan, but ignore Satan's role. It's an analysis that doesn't work from your positional sights for failure to account for BOTH/TWO parties AND also fails to consider Gods Will in the matters.

As stated prior, any analysis of scripture MANDATES to account for 3 parties:

God, Satan and Man.

It's not a one of the above only situation.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"OK. So, just HOW MANY signs prove that one believes then?

Do you believe? I know you do. So, how many of these signs have followed you?

Let's not make excuses. How many of these signs have actually followed you?

The subjunctive mood isn't found in Mark 16:17,18.

We're not arguing about whether Paul was an apostle or that he believed.

According to the logic presented in your posts, yep."

And this is the "reply".

Another post with no scripture.

Questions don't require Scripture. It's the ANSWERS that do.

But, to your point, at least it seems you're in agreement with me about Mark 16:17,18 as not being Scripture.

Please post the scripture, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

It's always a pleasure to quote Scripture.

"And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8"

You're welcome.

 

[smaller]

That would be kind of awkward since Peter wasn't the Son of God.

I'm saying Peter was acting as an agent/servant of the Devil called 'Satan'. That's why Jesus called Peter, 'Satan'.

Satan was/is Satan. It wasn't Peter as Satan, but Satan as Satan. At a minimum we should recognize the Divine Principle of TWO separate parties in one set of shoes. The principle of the matter is found in Mark 4:15, which shows the same TWO parties. Man and Satan. The same principle shown in 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 and in many other citings.

Paul used the same devise in 2 Cor. 11 and 12 where he calls the Jews who beat him 'Satan' (agents of the Devil), and the disability he suffered at their hands 'a messenger of Satan'. 2 Cor. 12:7-10

An unlikely analysis. Paul said the "messenger of Satan" was IN his own flesh. There is again an accurate accounting principle to be applied to account for TWO parties. The same TWO parties noted in 1 John 3:8 for example, or John 8:44 or Eph. 6:11-12 or Romans 7:17 & 20. All examples of the SAME THING.

I would say Jesus rebuked Satan through Peter.

In Peter's flesh would be more accurate. But yes, Satan was assuredly involved JUST AS Satan also entered Judas.

Both of these accounts show the principle of Mark 4:15, which in Peter's case is noted as "A KEY." That Key is this:

Where the Word is sown (Peter being with The Word, Jesus) THEN Satan enters the heart to deceive. The identical arrangement happened also with Judas. AND the same thing happened with the Pharisees. John 8:44.

When anyone realizes this "hard line fact" they'll never read the scriptures the same way again, because they'll see TWO parties, not just man.

 

[chessman]

There is no scripture here that shows Jesus Christ, empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Sure there is:

In Acts 9 verses 1 and 2, we read about an unbeliever breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the believing Way, he could bring them tied up to Jerusalem. In verse 5 this unbeliever asked the Lord “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting!"

But the Lord said in verse 15 that this unbelieving man "is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel".

Poof, Jesus chose an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost.

And this same man healed the sick (Acts 19:11-12), raised the dead (Acts 20:9-20), and cast out devils (Acts 19:11-2).

 

[JLB]

Sure there is:

In Acts 9 verses 1 and 2, we read about an unbeliever breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the high priest and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the believing Way, he could bring them tied up to Jerusalem. In verse 5 this unbeliever asked the Lord “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting!"

But the Lord said in verse 15 that this unbelieving man "is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel".

Poof, Jesus chose an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost.

And this same man healed the sick (Acts 19:11-12), raised the dead (Acts 20:9-20), and cast out devils (Acts 19:11-2).

So Paul is an unbeliever, when he was empowered by the Lord to preach the Gospel.

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Acts 26:14-18

First Paul became a believer, then was taught by the Lord personally.

He then, as a believer was sent out by the Holy Spirit, through the leadership, and the laying on of hands.

Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:1-3


Those who believe, and are taught by the Lord, are sent out as approved by the Holy Spirit.


Please provide a scripture for your "claim", where the Lord Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?



Everyone is an unbeliever, until they believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB said: Please post the scripture, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

It's always a pleasure to quote Scripture.

"And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8"

Thanks for at least quoting a scripture, though this shows the disciples of Jesus Christ, who were promoted to Apostle, and then sent out, Judas Iscariot included.

These were not unbelievers, but believers, as written in the scripture.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69



Or maybe you would like to deny that John 6, is authentic scripture as you have done with Mark 16?



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said to Peter he was being mindful of the things of men.

That tells us Peter was speaking from his own agenda, being in a leadership role, with the Son of God.

• On the other hand, Satan wanted Jesus dead, Peter did not.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

• Peter, through his own motive, didn't want Jesus to be killed.

• Satan, working through the elders and chief priests and scribes, did want Jesus to be killed.

So, in this instance, I don't see Peter being influenced and inspired by Satan, but rather, he was being mindful of his own agenda, and the things of man.


JLB

Then why even mention Satan? Jesus called Satan by name. This is why I'm saying he was rebuking Satan, not Peter. I'm sure Peter loved the Lord, and it was out of love that he said this shall not happen to you, but Jesus said this and this would happen and Peter said God forbid. So at this moment Peter is in opposition to the truth. Luke 22:31 tells us Satan demanded Simon to sift him like wheat. Perhaps Satan wanted Peter to fail.

You have ascribed motive to everyone but Jesus. What was Jesus's motive? I believe he loved Peter and he didn't want Peter to fail, so he rebuked Satan through Peter.

 

[chessman]

So Paul is an unbeliever, when he was empowered by the Lord to preach the Gospel.

Yep, Paul was an unbeliever (dead in his tresspasses) when Jesus chose him to preach the Gospel. You were not aware of that fact.

First Paul became a believer, then was taught by the Lord personally.

Wrong. Saul was an unbeliever when the Lord chose him to preach. Then, still as an unbeliever, the Lord first taught Paul personally.

Acts 9:4-6 (NKJV) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
​

Everyone is an unbeliever, until they believe.

Correct. But not all unbelievers are chosen by Jesus Christ to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons. But Saul sure was. Per the Scripture I posted.

Those who believe, and are taught by the Lord, are sent out as approved by the Holy Spirit.

The unbelievers, like Saul and the Corinthians and Ephesians), who are first loved by God's great mercy and taught by the Word and then believe in Him (being reborn from above, like Paul and Corinthian and Ephesian believers) are approved, established, anonited and sealed for the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NKJV) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.​

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

Do you think Judas Iscariot was ever loved by God's great mercy?

 

[atpollard]

Whose words are these

Unknown since Mark 16:17 is not found in the oldest manuscripts.

 

[JLB]

Which Words were addressed to Satan, as previously and duly noted. Matt. 16:23.

Another person who tags their opinion with a scripture reference but doesn't post the scripture.

Here is what Natthew 16:23 says -

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

He said to Peter...

The scripture says Jesus said to Peter, not Satan.

Jesus was addressing Peter.

Peter wanted to prevent Jesus from being killed.

Satan on the other hand wanted Jesus killed.

According to the scripture, Jesus was speaking to Peter, about Peter's words, as to trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.


JLB

 

[smaller]

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

He said to Peter...

That's odd. I swear I see Satan there in that scripture.

Jesus was addressing Peter.

Uh huh. And addressed Satan, directly, IN Peter.

Peter wanted to prevent Jesus from being killed.

Uh, yeah, but what about Satan? I noted before your sight requires Peter to be Satan.

It's either that or Satan is actually Satan.

Satan on the other hand wanted Jesus killed.

Says who? God wanted Jesus killed. Satan is the opposer of what God wants.

Not all is at it appears with a surface analysis.

According to the scripture, Jesus was speaking to Peter, about Peter's words, as to trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.

I guess so IF we think Peter is Satan, which I obviously don't.

As noted to you many times both Peter and Judas show us the reality, yes, reality of Mark 4:15. But to get there we have to be able to count to 2.

 

[FreeGrace]

smaller said: ↑
Which Words were addressed to Satan, as previously and duly noted. Matt. 16:23.

Another person who tags their opinion with a scripture reference but doesn't post the scripture.

Why is this such a problem? By simply placing the mouse over the reference, the entire verse is displayed.

 

[JLB]

Then why even mention Satan? Jesus called Satan by name.

Because that is a term to describe a man that is in opposition to God's cause or will, or plan.

What Peter was saying, was in opposition to God's will for Jesus and all of mankind.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

Peter was being mindful of the things of men, and opposing God.


Satan, on the other hand, did in fact want Jesus killed.



JLB

 

[JLB]

smaller said: ↑
Which Words were addressed to Satan, as previously and duly noted. Matt. 16:23.

Why is this such a problem? By simply placing the mouse over the reference, the entire verse is displayed.

Because, as anyone can see if the scripture was written out, Jesus was addressing Peter, and not Satan.


This plain truth is hidden, if the scripture is not posted.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That's odd. I swear I see Satan there in that scripture.

That's because, it's all you see in every single person, based on your unbiblical theory, that Satan is in everyone.



I asked you to post the scripture whereby Satan entered Peter.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Uh huh. And addressed Satan, directly, IN Peter.

False! The scripture does not say Satan was addressed in Peter.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

• Peter was being mindful of the things of men, and opposing God, because he didn't want Jesus killed.

• Satan, on the other hand, did in fact want Jesus killed.

This scripture reveals to us the influence of Satan on the chief priest's and elders, in which they wanted Jesus killed, and Satan working in concert with these ungodly leaders, entered into Judas to betray Jesus, for that purpose.


2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. Luke 22:2-4


It was Satan's influence on Judas, to betray the Jesus, to be killed.

Peter did not want Jesus to be killed, which was in opposition to God's plan.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Wrong. Saul was an unbeliever when the Lord chose him to preach. Then, still as an unbeliever, the Lord first taught Paul personally.

Acts 9:4-6 (NKJV) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

There is nothing in this scripture, about Jesus empowering Saul as an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost. 2


Saul was shown what to do to be saved, first.

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul -
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.” 13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
Acts 9:6-20


Paul preached after he believed and was baptized.



JLB

 

[chessman]

There is nothing in this scripture, about Jesus empowering Saul as an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost. 2

2 You didn't bold it, but the fact is Saul was a chosen instrument (while unbelieving). Yep chosen to carry Jesus Christ's name.

Acts 9:15 (LEB) But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.​

This OP claim you made ("Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while", not about Saul being an unbeliever, yet chosen insrutment of the Gospel) is yours to defend:

Do you have enough confidence in your claim about Judas to answer the following relevant question:

Is it your opinion that Jesus ever loved Judas Iscariot?