Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

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Jesus gave us all the reality dynamic of "how" the Word works.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

A couple of basic understandings:

There are 3 parties to the fact. Gods Living Words. Satan who is moved by those Words of God to resist via a number of different actions theft, temptations, deceptions, destruction, murder, etc. And this adverse activity transpires in man.

3 parties. God/Satan/Man. These dynamics are in play in every line of scripture, every Word of scripture.

There are thousands of examples in the Gospels of Jesus confronting devils 'IN MAN.' It's one of the most unique presentations of Christian scriptures, and differentiates Christianity from most other religions.

Paul gives us an example of how the "law," Gods Words, prompted evil thoughts for example in himself in Romans 7:7-13, using that chapter to prove not only the presence of sin indwelling the flesh he also termed this activity "no more I." We know sin is not forensic in the flesh. Therefore it IS in the unseen arena. Romans 7:17-21.

The principle involved here is that the LAW (in particular), Gods Word, MOVES Satan into man to resist. That's why we don't put ourselves 'under Law.' It's also why the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

The Law is actually meant to EMPOWER sin, 1 Cor. 15:56, Romans 7:13. So that we would individually recognize this internal fact of evil thoughts, of sin, of no more I, of evil present with(in) ourselves. It is there our own battle ground is staked.

These observations are openers to get us to realize what goes on on the inside. But if we don't recognize our own problems with the "spirit of disobedience" by conceding to the reality of the facts of Word, the believers who don't not only won't see it, BUT CAN'T. Because they too are being blinded by the same bad operator, internally.

When we read the accounts of Judas, we should keep these things in mind. It's not an account of only Judas. It's an account of the slave of sin, Judas and Satan. Sin is of course 'of the devil.' 1 John 3:8.

And if we understand the Divine Principle of Mark 4:15, we'll see the KEY that Jesus shows us in the event of Peter. Gods Words of truth came to Peter. THEN what happened? Yeah, Satan shows up to RESIST Gods Words. Even to Jesus' Own Face IN PETER.

We can take this understanding to some of the more difficult to understand scriptures and ZIP right through them in understanding:

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

That entire scripture applies to US. How? We, in falling upon Jesus, "this stone" are BROKEN from the "hold, the slaveship of Satan." We are no longer "slaves of sin and slaves of the devil" BECAUSE we SEE the devils activity, what it is, how it works, how it is caused. And Satan is GROUND TO POWDER.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

If we can't manage to get BOTH parties on the table AND understand how Gods Word actually "works" for man and AGAINST the devil(s) simultaneously, that's how we landed where we are today.

I would suggest that "all of these things" were Gods Plan in any case.

 

[JLB]

Yes. But Saul was a chosen instrument of the Lord prior to his baptism. See verse 15 where Jesus, not me, says so. Yet you laughed at the fact.

Saul was chosen for the very purpose to preach the Gospel prior to his believing and baptism. Jesus said so to Ananias:

Did Paul preach the Gospel prior to his believing, or did he persecute the Church, prior to his believing?

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2


Paul was a believer when he was sent to preach the Gospel, not an unbeliever.

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
Acts 9:18-20


Paul was not an unbeliever, when He preached the Gospel.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:21-23

“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”


No, it just Peter not wanting Jesus to be handed over to the elders and chief priest's and be killed.

Satan wanted Jesus dead.

Peter did not want Jesus dead.

Therefore, it was Peter who Jesus was addressing, because it was Peter who was speaking, not Satan.



JLB

I believe Satan had a hold of Peter like a wolf gets a hold of a sheep. Peter isn't believing Jesus. He is believing Satan. ie. Jesus said it will happen. Peter says, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you." So at this point Peter is not believing Jesus would be put to death and be raised from the dead. Satan is standing beside Peter telling Peter it will not happen, and Peter is siding with the Devil, and falling into disbelief. So who is Jesus speaking to? I would say Jesus is speaking to whoever has ears to hear.

 

[JLB]

Saul was NOT a believer nor baptized with the Holy Spirit yet he was chosen to preach the Gospel.

It seemed to surprise Ananias too, that Saul was chosen. Though I don't think he laughed at the Lord's words.

Jesus didn't say he will become a preacher after believing and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. He told Ananias that Saul "is a chosen vessel of Mine" as Saul was very much an unbeliever and unbaptized at the time Jesus told Ananias Saul is a chosen vessel of Mine.

More opinion with no scripture.


18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:18-20


Paul said: I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 1 Corinthians 14:18




JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe Satan had a hold of Peter like a wolf gets a hold of a sheep. Peter isn't believing Jesus. He is believing Satan. ie. Jesus said it will happen. Peter says, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you." So at this point Peter is not believing Jesus would be put to death and be raised from the dead. Satan is standing beside Peter telling Peter it will not happen, and Peter is siding with the Devil, and falling into disbelief. So who is Jesus speaking to? I would say Jesus is speaking to whoever has ears to hear.

The scripture tells us who Jesus was speaking to.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:21-23


Jesus was speaking to Peter.

...said to Peter, informs us who Jesus was speaking to, so we don't have to make things up.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Peter isn't believing Jesus. He is believing Satan.

Actually, the scripture reveals exactly the opposite.


Peter did believe Jesus, when Jesus informed His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Peter believed what Jesus said and responded that this must not happen, which was a reaction of fear, that Jesus would be killed, because he believed what Jesus said.


Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
Matthew 16:22


Peter didn't want Jesus to die, and tried to prevent what Jesus predicted, by rebuking Jesus.


Today, we might say something like: No Jesus, don't say such a thing; this must not happen.



JLB

 

[smaller]

The scripture tells us who Jesus was speaking to.
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:21-23

Jesus was speaking to Peter.

IF we ignore the elephant in the room.

Obviously Satan is employed in the scripture.

What conclusions do we draw? Only Peter? Peter is Satan?

...said to Peter, informs us who Jesus was speaking to, so we don't have to make things up.

The most obvious conclusion is that your position has no accounting for Satan in this scripture.

Matt. 16:
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:

We can talk all day long about Peter, but what about Satan? No bearing? Why no bearing?

Of course Satan is involved in this dialog beyond any doubt.

Just as Satan must be involved in any dialog to understand Judas and SATAN who entered Judas and Satan placing betrayal in Judas' heart.

John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

I can't help but laugh at the voided positional sights when there is no factoring or accounting for the obvious parties, PLURAL, Peter and Satan and Judas and Satan in both accounts, even a refusal or inability to see the obvious, Satan.

 

[JLB]

IF we ignore the elephant in the room.

Obviously Satan is employed in the scripture.

What conclusions do we draw? Only Peter? Peter is Satan?

All you need to do, is show the scripture where Satan entered Peter.


JLB

 

[smaller]

All you need to do, is show the scripture where Satan entered Peter.
JLB

Or you eliminate the elephant in the room. Scripture already showed us how it happens. Mark 4:15.

 

[JLB]

Matt. 16:
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:

We can talk all day long about Peter, but what about Satan? No bearing? Why no bearing?

Of course Satan is involved in this dialog beyond any doubt.

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

Jesus is speaking to Peter, not Satan himself.

Peter is not the angel Satan.

Peter is opposing God's will for Jesus, and "acting" in opposition, which is one of the definitions of the word Satan.

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

1. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
   
   1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin
   2. circumventing men by his wiles
   3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
   4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
   5. by God's assistance he is overcome
   6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
      
2. a Satan-like man
   

Just like Judas Iscariot was not a devil: a literal wicked spirit, but was "acting" the part of the devil.

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
      
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
   

Jesus was speaking to Peter, and not Satan: He turned and said to Peter,




JLB

 

[JLB]

Or you eliminate the elephant in the room. Scripture already showed us how it happens. Mark 4:15.

You would need to post the scripture, and refer to the actual language of the scripture, to be considered credible.


And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15

Nothing here about Satan entering Peter.

Nothing here about Satan entering anyone, for that matter.


Satan blinds the mind of people, which doesn't necessarily mean he literally enters them.

... whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:4



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Actually, the scripture reveals exactly the opposite.


Peter did believe Jesus, when Jesus informed His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Peter believed what Jesus said and responded that this must not happen, which was a reaction of fear, that Jesus would be killed, because he believed what Jesus said.


Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
Matthew 16:22


Peter didn't want Jesus to die, and tried to prevent what Jesus predicted, by rebuking Jesus.


Today, we might say something like: No Jesus, don't say such a thing; this must not happen.



JLB

"God forbid Lord! This shall never happen to you" is not an expression of belief. It is an expression of disbelief. Peter did not believe Jesus would be put to death and be raised from the dead, otherwise Peter would have rejoiced.

If Jesus said this and this and this will happen, and you said, 'No it won't', that's not believing Jesus.

 

[JLB]

God forbid Lord! This shall never happen to you" is not an expression of belief. It is an expression of disbelief. Peter did not believe Jesus otherwise Peter would have rejoiced.

If Jesus said this and this and this will happen, and you said, 'No it won't', that's not believing Jesus.

If he didn't believe Jesus then why would he try to rebuke Him, to prevent what he believed would happen.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus is speaking to Peter, not Satan himself.

Ah. So Satan isn't really there in that scripture?

Peter is not the angel Satan.

Why is Satan in that scripture?

Peter is opposing God's will for Jesus, and "acting" in opposition, which is one of the definitions of the word Satan.

I see. So Peter was Satan? Is that your final answer?

 

[JLB]

I see. So Peter was Satan? Is that your final answer?

That's funny.

Peter is Peter and Satan is Satan.

Peter was opposing the will of God for Jesus.

Jesus called out Peter for this.

That is one of the meanings of this word Satan -

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

It is a metaphorical reference to a person who is opposing the cause of God.


Sorry, you can't seem to receive this meaning of the word.




JLB

 

[smaller]

That's funny.

Peter is Peter and Satan is Satan.

Peter was opposing the will of God for Jesus.

Jesus called out Peter for this.

That is one of the meanings of this word Satan -

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

It is a metaphorical reference to a person who is opposing the cause of God.


Sorry, you can't seem to receive this meaning of the word.




JLB

So, according to JLB Satan was/is a metaphor describing people and therefore Peter was Satan? And when we read the term Satan we should not view Satan as a real entity, but a metaphor of Peter or of people?

Is this your final answer, yet?

You may want to revise your previous estimate:

Peter is opposing God's will for Jesus, and "acting" in opposition, which is one of the definitions of the word Satan.

When you determine if Satan is real or just a metaphor of people, let me know.

In the meantime I'll take it that Satan is a real entity, addressed by Jesus in Matt. 16:23.

Metaphors of Satan don't enter into people and turn them into Satan.

 

[JLB]

Ah. So Satan isn't really there in that scripture?


Why is Satan in that scripture?


I see. So Peter was Satan? Is that your final answer?

Please show the scripture where Satan entered Peter, if you think Satan was in Peter.


The scripture defines for us when Satan entered Judas:


Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. Luke 22:1-3


Look at the result, of Satan entering Judas: Then Satan entered Judas...So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.


The result of Satan entering Judas, was Judas went straight to the chief priest's to confer and plot how Judas was to betray Jesus, so that their desire to kill Jesus would be accomplished.



Now you are wanting us to believe your revelation about Satan being "in Peter", and Satan influencing Peter to stop Jesus from being killed, when the scripture shows us as soon as Satan entered Judas, he went to the chief priest's to plan out how to in fact get Jesus killed on the cross.


Sorry, if I don't receive your revelation about Peter and Satan.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There is nothing in this scripture, about Jesus empowering Saul as an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost.

Saul was shown what to do to be saved, first.

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul -
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.” 13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
Acts 9:6-20

Paul preached after he believed and was baptized.JLB

The point is that what Ananias was told about Paul was said BEFORE he went to Paul and laid hands on him. There is no evidence that he was a believer BEFORE Ananias did that.

If anyone thinks there is evidence for Paul believing BEFORE Ananias arrived, they are free to quote any verse for support.

 

[JLB]

So, according to JLB Satan was/is a metaphor describing people and therefore Peter was Satan? And when we read the term Satan we should not view Satan as a real entity, but a metaphor of Peter or of people?

To me, one of the definitions of the word Satan, is:
a metaphorical reference to a person who is opposing the cause of God.


Satan - Strong's G4567 - Satanas

1. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

Do you believe this is one of the definitions for the word Satan?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is another example of a servant of Jesus Christ who was promoted, then ended up being sentenced to hell with the hypocrites.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

How come neither your translation nor my translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire? So why the claim?

If the servant begins to take advantage of his authority and abuse it, and begins to associate with the ungodly, and live an immoral life, and neglect those who he has been given authority to serve, then when the master returns, he will be appointed his portion with the hypocrites, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is a reference to hell: the furnace of fire.

OK, this is an opinion. A claim. Where is the evidence for your opinion? Please do what you keep telling others to do: post a Scripture that says what you claim.

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50
JLB

Oh, I see. Just because there is another verse with one of 2 actions from Math 24:45-51, that proves that both verses are talking about the same thing??? Well, in Matt 24, there was 1) weeping and 2) gnashing of teeth.

But in Matt 13 there was 1) wailing and 2) gnashing of teeth.

These aren't the same descriptions.

Further, the phrase "gnashing of teeth" was a common expression of that day for intense negative emotions and signifies profound regret. Great sorrow is expressed over wasted opportunity to have acquired something of great value, such as eternal rewards.