Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

The point is that what Ananias was told about Paul was said BEFORE he went to Paul and laid hands on him. There is no evidence that he was a believer BEFORE Ananias did that.

If anyone thinks there is evidence for Paul believing BEFORE Ananias arrived, they are free to quote any verse for support.

The only Point is: Paul was a baptized believer when He went to preach the Gospel.

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:18-20



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The only Point is: Paul was a baptized believer when He went to preach the Gospel.

OK, one can ignore whatever they wish, but the point really is that Paul was a chosen vessel BEFORE he did any of those things. As chessman clearly showed.

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:18-20
JLB

All of this occurred AFTER v.15, when the Lord told Ananias that Paul WAS (present tense, btw) a chosen vessel.

EDITED

 

[JLB]

How come neither your translation nor my translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire? So why the claim?

...and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


This phrase, wailing and gnashing of teeth, is associated with being condemned to hell: the furnace of fire.


So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50

OK, this is an opinion. A claim. Where is the evidence for your opinion? Please do what you keep telling others to do: post a Scripture that says what you claim.

...and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


This phrase, wailing and gnashing of teeth, is associated with being condemned to hell: the furnace of fire.


So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50



JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, one can ignore whatever they wish, but the point really is that Paul was a chosen vessel BEFORE he did any of those things. As chessman clearly showed.

Yes
EDITED

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:18-20



Paul preached Christ, after he believed and was baptized.


Before Saul met Jesus, and confessed Him as Lord, and was baptized, he persecuted the Church.

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2



JLB

 

[JLB]

All of this occurred AFTER v.15, when the Lord told Ananias that Paul WAS (present tense, btw) a chosen vessel.

You've asked for Scripture. You've received Scripture. But it seems you're not accepting of it.

There is no scripture in your post.


I have received no scripture showing that Jesus empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Here's the deal. The verses you've quoted about the disciples going out and doing these things shows that Jesus did just that.

The reason your verses refute your claim about Judas being saved is that they DON'T say he ever believed, nor was described as saved.

In fact, there are NO VERSES that even suggest such a thing.

There are certainly scriptures given showing Judas a chosen disciple, an Apostle, given power by Jesus to cast out devils, heal, they "obeying" Jesus in those commands, preached the truth, given understanding from Jesus, that he was a sheep, that the Spirit of the Father was speaking through them including Judas, was ordained, and even that they, including Judas, would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, were given the Kingdom of God and was judged, at least by Peter, to be a believer. I don't know how many more markers one would need to derive that Judas believed.

Matt. 10:1-2, Matt. 10:7, Matt. 10:16, Matt. 10:20, Matt. 19:27-29, Mark 3:14, Mark 4:9-11, Mark 6:12-13, Luke 6:20, Luke 8:10, John 6:66-69.

At what POINT do we realize that it was GODS WILL to turn people, including Judas, against Jesus? Acts 4:26-28.

 

[smaller]

There is no scripture in your post.
I have received no scripture showing that Jesus empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel.

I'd suggest a much closer read of the 12 in Matt. 10 showing this fact, which 12 included JUDAS:

Matt. 10:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"How come neither your translation nor my translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire? So why the claim?"

...and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, I ask: how come your translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire?

This phrase, wailing and gnashing of teeth, is associated with being condemned to hell: the furnace of fire.

I already pointed out there is no contextual link between Matt 13 and 24.

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50

Please show how this verse proves your claim. I've already pointed out that the 2 verses say DIFFERENT things.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, you have ignored what the scriptures actually say.

I proved the opposite. That what the Lord told Ananias was BEFORE v.18-20. v.15 ALWAYS precedes verses of higher number.

 

[JLB]

I proved the opposite. That what the Lord told Ananias was BEFORE v.18-20. v.15 ALWAYS precedes verses of higher number.

Before Saul believed and was baptized, he persecuted the Church.

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Acts 9:1-2


Acts 9:20 is when Paul preached Christ, not before.

Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:20

Acts 9:18 is when he was baptized, which is before verse 20 when he preached Christ.

Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
Acts 9:18


Acts 9:5-6 is when Jesus was revealed to Him, and he acknowledged Him as Lord, and submitted himself to obey Him.

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:5-6

From this point forward, Paul began to walk in the obedience of faith, and continued throughout his life to the end, leaving us an example to follow.



So, based on the scripture from Acts 9:20, where it shows Paul first began to preach Christ, was Paul a believer, or an unbeliever?

• A. - Paul was still an unbeliever in verse 20 when he preached Christ.
• B. - Paul was a believer, in verse 20, when he preached Christ.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, I ask: how come your translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire?

The language of the scriptures tells me what Jesus is saying, from what He has already said.

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, I ask: how come your translation says anything about hell or the lake of fire?

The language of the scriptures tells me what Jesus is saying, from what He has already said.

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest a much closer read of the 12 in Matt. 10 showing this fact, which 12 included JUDAS:

Matt. 10:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

You can read as close as you like, but the words of scripture will not change.

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

• Satan wanted Jesus killed, as he wasn't trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.

• Peter was trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.

The result of Satan entering Judas, was Judas went straight to the chief priest's to confer and plot how Judas was to betray Jesus, so that their desire to kill Jesus would be accomplished.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Paul was a believer when he was sent to preach the Gospel, not an unbeliever.

Saul was an unbeliever when Jesus said he was a chosen instrument to carry His name.

Acts 9:15 (LEB) But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. ​

Thank you, Chessman, for demonstrating to all of us, just how far those who defend their pet doctrine will go

You're welcome. But it wasn't very far, really. All I had to do was to read verse 15 of the ninth chapter of the history of the first believers in Christ's resurrection from the dead. Oh, and actually believe Jesus' words. Oh, and reading Jesus' words in Chapter 15 of John's Gospel of Christ;

John 15:9 (NKJV) “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. "​

Do you think Jesus loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus?

 

[smaller]

John 15:9 (NKJV) “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. "​

Do you think Jesus loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus?

Good point. We might also realize this about Judas, yes, Judas:

Matt. 10:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

I'd find it pretty hard to single out Judas for all this scorn, completely ignore that it was in fact GODS OWN PLAN, and not have just as much scorn for the other disciples:

Matt. 26:
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

I mean really, Peter lied straight to Jesus face, swearing he wouldn't DENY Jesus, saying he would die with Jesus. Then ended up denying Jesus 3 times!

I can only chalk ALL of these facts up to Divine Intent, just as the scriptures state is the case. The last thing I'd do is blame any of them, seeing Gods Own Hands on the entirety of the events, thereby fulfilling His Words, 'as it is written.'

Jesus even reaffirms this is the case after His Resurrection:

Luke 24:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It is only the slow of heart that can't believe ALL these things were by Gods Own Hands. And instead they resort to blaming Judas, as if he could have changed any of what happened.

Not with God Himself in play. Not happening.

 

[MarkT]

If he didn't believe Jesus then why would he try to rebuke Him, to prevent what he believed would happen.


JLB

So Peter believed Jesus would be put to death and after three days he would be raised from the dead, and Peter wanted to prevent it?

Of course Peter loved Jesus, and he did not want to believe Jesus was going to die. Nevertheless, when Peter rebuked Jesus, Peter was not believing Jesus. Likewise, Peter did not believe Jesus when Jesus said Peter would deny knowing him three times, and the apostles didn't believe the women at the tomb, and Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief, for not believing the women. Luke 24:10-11 Mr. 16:14

 

[JLB]

So Peter believed Jesus would be put to death and after three days he would be raised from the dead, and Peter wanted to prevent it?

Of course Peter loved Jesus, and he did not want to believe Jesus was going to die. Nevertheless, when Peter rebuked Jesus, Peter was not believing Jesus. Likewise, Peter did not believe Jesus when Jesus said Peter would deny knowing him three times, and the apostles didn't believe the women at the tomb, and Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief, for not believing the women. Luke 24:10-11 Mr. 16:14

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
Matthew 16:22

Why would Peter rebuke Jesus in an attempt to prevent Jesus from going to Jerusalem to be killed, if he didn't believe Jesus would be killed?

You're welcome. But it wasn't very far, really. All I had to do was to read verse 15 of the ninth chapter of the history of the first believers in Christ's resurrection from the dead. Oh, and actually believe Jesus' words. Oh, and reading Jesus' words in Chapter 15 of John's Gospel of Christ;

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” Acts 8:15-16


Can you explain how it is verse 15 makes Paul an unbeliever, when he preached Christ?



18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:18-20


So, based on the scripture from Acts 9:20, where it shows Paul first began to preach Christ, was Paul a believer, or an unbeliever?

• A. - Paul was still an unbeliever in verse 20 when he preached Christ.
• B. - Paul was a believer, in verse 20, when he preached Christ.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Still waiting for you to address Peter being the metaphor of Satan.

Why do you keep twisting my words, to say something I did not.


I didn't say Satan was a metaphor.

I said one of the definitions of the word Satan, is used to describe a man who is opposing the cause or will of God.

Satan - Strong's G4567 - Satanas

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

1. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
   
   1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin
   2. circumventing men by his wiles
   3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
   4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
   5. by God's assistance he is overcome
   6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
      
2. a Satan-like man
   

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

• Satan wanted Jesus killed, as he wasn't trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.

• Peter was trying to prevent Jesus from being killed.

The result of Satan entering Judas, was Judas went straight to the chief priest's to confer and plot how Judas was to betray Jesus, so that their desire to kill Jesus would be accomplished.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Saul was an unbeliever when Jesus said he was a chosen instrument to carry His name.

Acts 9:15 (LEB) But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.

Acts 9:5-6 is when Jesus was revealed to Him, and he acknowledged Him as Lord, and submitted himself to obey Him.

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:5-6

From this point forward, Paul began to walk in the obedience of faith, and continued throughout his life to the end, leaving us an example to follow.


So, based on the scripture from Acts 9:20, where it shows Paul first began to preach Christ, was Paul a believer, or an unbeliever?

• A. - Paul was still an unbeliever in verse 20 when he preached Christ.
• B. - Paul was a believer, in verse 20, when he preached Christ.

JLB

 

[chessman]

It is only the slow of heart that can't believe ALL these things were by Gods Own Hands.

All human hearts are slow.

It is only after the disciples ate the resurrected Bread of Life, were their eyes opened. Much less their hearts.

Luke 24:30-31 (LEB) And it happened that when he reclined at the table with them, he took the bread and gave thanks, and after breaking it, he gave it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became invisible to them. ​

And it is only by the gift of the Holy Spirit that anyone can believe ALL these things.

Acts 2:32-33 (LEB) This Jesus God raised up, of which we all are witnesses. Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear. ​

What did they hear? Many things, but none more to the point than:

Acts 2:21 (LEB) And it will be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’ ​

If Judas actually and personally called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (aorist), he will be saved (future). If not, Judas will not be saved. Simple, really.

Just as simply as the fact that Judas perished, yet those who have been given eternal life never perish.

And no, I don't think it works for Judas when Peter speaks for Judas' beliefs. I think it must be called out personally. Peter's track record for accurate claims (prior to receiving baptism of the Holy Spirit), not so good. Even speaking for himself, Peter claimed he'd never deny Jesus and Jesus would never wash his feet. Both, incorrect claims.