LovethroughDove
Member
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
smaller
Member
Scriptures provide more than ample evidence that the Holy Ghost was quite active throughout the scriptures. 1 Peter 1:10-12. Repentance, Faith, Mercy, all were in dynamic operating prior to Jesus in the flesh/resurrected. Matt. 23:23.
To say God Changed His Ways has it's faults.
As it pertains to the blinded unbelievers of Israel, inclusive of Judas, in Romans 11:25-31 is an exceptionally important note. It's not like there was NO ONE saved prior to Jesus.
Pretty sure Judas and the other disciples had effective conveyances given to them by God in Christ, directly. People just don't care to see them is all.
LovethroughDove
Member
I'm not saying that people didn't receive mercy from God prior to Jesus. I am saying no one was SAVED prior to Christ. This is the whole reason for Jesus being born into the world.
smaller
Member
Another claim that God in Christ is different than His Own Words. Jesus is not opposed to what He Himself Said. To try to use a scripture to prove the point makes it an illogical statement on the surface. The scripture you cite makes the opposite statement of fact from your conclusion:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
smaller
Member
We know that's not true. Moses and Elias appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration event. Abraham spoke in Luke 16, post death.
There is no difference between The Word, Jesus, in the O.T. and the N.T. He was/is the same Living Word. And yes, there was "salvation" in Israel prior to the manifestation of God in flesh, in Jesus Christ.
LovethroughDove
Member
This is where I have you use scripture to prove this. Please produce "saved" in the Old Testament. Thank you
smaller
Member
I just cited you proofs from the N.T. of O.T. salvation in the last post. I always presume people can pick up Luke 16's account of Abraham speaking post death or the transfiguration event and verify it with an online Bible citing for themselves. Believers who post here know these events without even saying where they are located in the text.
I am aware of the claim you are making from some sects positions. I do not consider those positions accurate to the scriptures disclosures. Salvation was assuredly presented in the O.T. as was eternal life.
The scriptures did after all preach the Gospel unto Abraham. Gal. 3:8. And it was NOT a different Gospel from what we have.
I said this:
"But you've just given a passage from Matt 27:3-5 that shows Judas REPENTING of his sins by returning the money. Your view is contradicted. Please unravel."
Kinda late, given that Jesus was unavailable to him after His arrest and crucifixion.
Just the verses you've presented about Jesus sending out the 12 to do those things.
But the real and only question is where does the Bible actually SAY that Judas ever believed, or that he ever lose salvation? It's not been provided. Just verses with huge assumptions.
I asked for an explanation for the contradiction in your view between Judas, who returned the money, and Peter, who repented.
"But you've just given a passage from Matt 27:3-5 that shows Judas REPENTING of his sins by returning the money. Your view is contradicted. Please unravel."
Kinda late, given that Jesus was unavailable to him after His arrest and crucifixion.
Just the verses you've presented about Jesus sending out the 12 to do those things.
But the real and only question is where does the Bible actually SAY that Judas ever believed, or that he ever lose salvation? It's not been provided. Just verses with huge assumptions.
My quite sure that Matt 27:3-5 is Scripture. I'm not sure why anyone else wouldn't think so.
I asked for an explanation for the contradiction in your view between Judas, who returned the money, and Peter, who repented.
Please explain how that would look. How, specifically, would Judas "turn back"?
How do you suppose he would have done that?
Sure. The very verses you've provided to support the notion that he was a believer when Jesus sent out the 12.
John 17:12
"While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled".
Did Satan somehow snatch Judas out of the Father's hand? No. According to John 10:29, no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
So what happened to Judas? He made a choice? Or did God give him to Jesus so he would fulfill the scripture, like Jesus said? Jesus couldn't save Judas? How come? Maybe it's because Judas was never meant to be saved. Maybe it's because Judas was a devil. Maybe it's because Judas was already condemned.
"While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled".
Did Satan somehow snatch Judas out of the Father's hand? No. According to John 10:29, no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
So what happened to Judas? He made a choice? Or did God give him to Jesus so he would fulfill the scripture, like Jesus said? Jesus couldn't save Judas? How come? Maybe it's because Judas was never meant to be saved. Maybe it's because Judas was a devil. Maybe it's because Judas was already condemned.
daninthelionsden
Member
Judas only had one vehicle for repentance and that was through the Temple administered Kingdom. The Temple would have none of him. Judas had no access to Jesus as He was on trial. Judas had no hope. The question is, after His crucifixion,did Jesus pull him out of Hell when He preached the Gospel there or is Judas lost forever?
Then you agree.
Why don't you answer my question, by providing the scripture whereby Jesus empowered and sent out an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost...
Chessman has failed to do, as he attempted to claim Paul was an unbeliever, when he preached the Gospel.
How about you?
Judas Iscariot believed and followed Jesus Christ, as a disciple, and was then sent out as an apostle to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, being appointed to reign with Christ, and the others from one of the twelve thrones.
He fell by transgression, becoming a guide to those who arrested Jesus Christ.
16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,
‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:16-24
Judas Iscariot believed and followed the Lord, for a while, then fell away.
And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house. Mark 3:14-19 KJV
Judas was ordained by Jesus Christ, along with the others.
Please show from the new Testament whereby an unbeliever was ever ordained by Jesus or any Apostle.
JLB
Are you saying that Jesus didn't preach the Gospel, and didn't teach His disciples to preach the Gospel?
- From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17
- 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:5-8
JLB
I here some claiming the logic, that there was no way to repent and be forgiven by the Lord.
Here we see some of those who were with Jesus, when He died.
Seems like the perfect time to repent to the Lord and be forgiven.
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27
The thief on the cross, received his.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
HI JLB,
This is very interesting -- about Judas being ordained.
Could it be that Jesus, being in human form, did not KINOW everything about Judas at every moment of His ministry?
So Jesus ordained Judas, but then at some point realized Judas was the one that would betray Him and called him the son of perdition and that it would have been better had Judas never been born?
Wondering
Romans 9:22
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
Judas was made for destruction, not salvation.
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
Judas was made for destruction, not salvation.
To me, what is even more, "eye opening", is what Jesus promised the twelve, Judas included, for following Him.
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29
Judas could have reigned with Christ, in the future kingdom, and inherited eternal life, if he didn't fall by transgression.
JLB
Last edited:
Please show the scripture that teaches us Judas Iscariot was created for destruction.
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29
This scripture shows us he was ordained to sit on one of the twelve thrones and inherit eternal life.
However, he chose to betray Jesus Christ, and become a guide for those who arrested Him, just as God foresaw, and spoke of through David.
The choice was always up to Judas, as it was with the others, as it is with us.
Why don't we take heed to what the bible teaches us about this matter, as we see the Day approaching, and know that we too can fall, if we don't learn to apply the warnings to our life such as...
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16
JLB
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:23-30
The context, was Jesus speaking to His 12 disciples, and teaching them, Judas included.
However, we see this principle applies to all who follow Him, however specifically at the time, in context, He was speaking to, and referring to His 12 disciples.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29
JLB