Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:23-30


The context, was Jesus speaking to His 12 disciples, and teaching them, Judas included.


However, we see this principle applies to all who follow Him, however specifically at the time, in context, He was speaking to, and referring to His 12 disciples.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


JLB

This, and also your post no. 701 makes it sound like Judas was saved in the end because Jesus told His Apostles that they would be reigning with Him on 12 thrones (while Judas was still with them).
I believe Judas was lost in the end.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

This, and also your post no. 701 makes it sound like Judas was saved in the end because Jesus told His Apostles that they would be reigning with Him on 12 thrones (while Judas was still with them).
I believe Judas was lost in the end.

Wondering

Judas was lost in the end, as he chose to betray Jesus, and then commit suicide.

He was an Apostle, then he became a betrayer.

Judas chose to hide the fact that he was taking money from the money bag, rather than confess his sin and weakness and be cleansed.

Satan, exploited this sin, and gained access to Judas to entice him to betray Jesus for money.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


I believe we can learn from this example, and apply the many warnings in the bible, that teach us about sin, and departing from Christ.

If you betray someone, then it means you know that person, that you have a relationship with them, and that they trust you.

This was said of Judas -

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9



Jesus warned us, that in the time of the end, there will be those who betray one another, during the tribulation.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


If we betray a Christian, during a time of persecution, and they are taken and killed, so that we could save ourself or get paid some money, by those who are persecuting and killing Christians, then we have betrayed the Lord.

• Notice what Jesus said to Saul, on the road to Damascus -

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:3-5




JLB

 

[MarkT]

Please show the scripture that teaches us Judas Iscariot was created for destruction.

"the son of perdition"

Perdition
noun

(in Christian theology) a state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unpenitent person passes after death.

ORIGIN

from Latin perdere ‘destroy,’ from per- ‘completely, to destruction’ + the base of dare ‘put.’

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29

This scripture shows us he was ordained to sit on one of the twelve thrones and inherit eternal life.

Not necessarily. The words are, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Wasn't Matthias elected to take Judas' place? As it is written in the book of Psalms "His office let another take" Acts 1:20 So Peter tells us Matthias was one of the men who accompanied the disciples, beginning from the baptism of John until the day Jesus was taken up. So Matthias was eligible to take Judas' office, and he did so that the words Jesus spoke would be fulfilled.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"My point has never been that Judas repented."

Then you agree.

I only agree that Judas never repented. I totally disagree that Judas was ever saved. Therefore, he wasn't "saved for a while".

Why don't you answer my question, by providing the scripture whereby Jesus empowered and sent out an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost...

Why don't you accept my answer to your question, which is the very verses you've used where Jesus empowered the 12, one of them being a devil, to preach the gospel.

Judas Iscariot believed and followed Jesus Christ, as a disciple

This has not been shown from Scripture that Judas ever believed in Christ. Many people followed Christ. Doesn't prove anything.

and was then sent out as an apostle to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, being appointed to reign with Christ, and the others from one of the twelve thrones.

His place of leadership was given to another, Matthias, so your point is not taken.

He fell by transgression, becoming a guide to those who arrested Jesus Christ.

Which doesn't prove loss of salvation.

Judas Iscariot believed and followed the Lord, for a while, then fell away.

You've not shown that he ever believed in Christ. From Scripture or any other source.

And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house. Mark 3:14-19 KJV

Why should anyone believe that this either proves or indicates that Judas had believed at one time?

Judas was ordained by Jesus Christ, along with the others.

Judas was ordained by God to betray Jesus. What is your point?

Please show from the new Testament whereby an unbeliever was ever ordained by Jesus or any Apostle.

I did, but my answer keeps getting ignored. So there is no point in repeating it.

 

[FreeGrace]

HI JLB,
This is very interesting -- about Judas being ordained.
Could it be that Jesus, being in human form, did not KINOW everything about Judas at every moment of His ministry?
So Jesus ordained Judas, but then at some point realized Judas was the one that would betray Him and called him the son of perdition and that it would have been better had Judas never been born?

Wondering

I think Scripture is clear that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray Him.

 

[smaller]

This, and also your post no. 701 makes it sound like Judas was saved in the end because Jesus told His Apostles that they would be reigning with Him on 12 thrones (while Judas was still with them).
I believe Judas was lost in the end.

We must presume then that what Jesus told them was NOT TRUE. That's your only alternative because Jesus DID say that to the 12, inclusive of Judas.

Luke 22:
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And yes, those Words were spoken to Judas as well.

 

[smaller]

I think Scripture is clear that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray Him.

Ah, so you believe humans are devils too? It's no wonder believers endlessly argue when they don't know the difference between a human and a devil.

IF Satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3, John 13:27) AND Judas was also a devil, that would appear to be TWO devils, not one. If we see 'one OF them' was a devil, counting to ONE, we might count the actual devil as the devil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Judas was lost in the end, as he chose to betray Jesus, and then commit suicide.

He was an Apostle, then he became a betrayer.

Judas chose to hide the fact that he was taking money from the money bag, rather than confess his sin and weakness and be cleansed.

Satan, exploited this sin, and gained access to Judas to entice him to betray Jesus for money.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


I believe we can learn from this example, and apply the many warnings in the bible, that teach us about sin, and departing from Christ.

If you betray someone, then it means you know that person, that you have a relationship with them, and that they trust you.

This was said of Judas -

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9



Jesus warned us, that in the time of the end, there will be those who betray one another, during the tribulation.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


If we betray a Christian, during a time of persecution, and they are taken and killed, so that we could save ourself or get paid some money, by those who are persecuting and killing Christians, then we have betrayed the Lord.

• Notice what Jesus said to Saul, on the road to Damascus -

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:3-5




JLB

agreed on everything.

Re "betrayed"---
Yes. if you betray someone it means you know them and they trusted you.
so Jesus must have trusted Judas at some point. Also, he was the treasurer and this also implied trust.

Thanks.

wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

Are you saying that Jesus didn't preach the Gospel, and didn't teach His disciples to preach the Gospel?

• From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

• 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:5-8

JLB

I am saying the saving gospel is Jesus raised from the dead. I have mentioned this on other threads and it gets ignored. You can't unbelieve Jesus raised from the dead if you truly believed it happened. Almost like you witnessed it for yourself. This is saving faith and the Gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Scripture is clear that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray Him.

This is something about which I have never had a firm belief.
JLB makes very valid points I've never considered.

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jesus could have meant mathias? Mathias could have reigned on one of the 12 thrones...
There were always 12 Apostles.

Wondering. I was going to post this exact thing, except without Judas that leaves a mystery person that God has in mind. I know the lots were cast for Matthias but I think it leaves this spot open.

 

[smaller]

Anyone who believes Judas was a devil has a boatload of theological issues to contend with, which have been duly noted throughout this thread.

In summation the problems this sight brings are these (among many others):

That Jesus calls a devil to be a disciple. Matt. 10:1
That Jesus claims a devil is an Apostle. Matt. 10:2
That Jesus calls a sheep, a devil. Matt. 10:16
That Jesus says The Father Speaks through a devil. Matt. 10:20
That Jesus empowers a devil to cast out devils. Matt. 10:8, Mark 3:15, Luke 9:1
That Jesus empowers a devil to heal the sick. Matt. 10:8, Mark 3:14, Luke 9:1
That Jesus made a series of untrue statements to the 12 Apostle/disciples. (too many to even list)
That God calls a devil to Christ. John 6:65

There are many more fatal flaws to the sight that Judas was a DEVIL including but not limited to the fact that THE actual devil entered Judas, and readers miss that fact by failing to COUNT that devil as THE devil. Luke 22:3

Every one of the postures above has some serious scripture dancing to do to get around these facts. I'd suggest the truth of the matter is much simpler.

That the DEVIL entered Judas.

 

[GodsGrace]

We must presume then that what Jesus told them was NOT TRUE. That's your only alternative because Jesus DID say that to the 12, inclusive of Judas.

Luke 22:
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And yes, those Words were spoken to Judas as well.

This has always confused me.
Jesus said the above, Luke 22:28-30 AFTER Luke tells us that satan had entered Judas,
Luke 22:3

Also in Luke 22:21-22 Jesus says that one will betray Him and woe to the one who betrays Him.

I have a problem reconciling this unless He meant Mathias.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

This has always confused me.
Jesus said the above, Luke 22:28-30 AFTER Luke tells us that satan had entered Judas,
Luke 22:3

Also in Luke 22:21-22 Jesus says that one will betray Him and woe to the one who betrays Him.

I have a problem reconciling this unless He meant Mathias.

Wondering

I'd suggest you may have the sight of timing quite off.

Jesus tells us plainly, the timing in Mark 4:15.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering. I was going to post this exact thing, except without Judas that leaves a mystery person that God has in mind. I know the lots were cast for Matthias but I think it leaves this spot open.

Hi. LovethroughDove
What do you mean that it left a spot open?
Mathias was chosen to take
Judas' place, Acts 1:26
He became numbered among the 12.

What I meant is that Jesus knew all this would come about because Judas would kill himself, so there would still be 12 thrones, but Judas would not occupy one of them, but Mathias.

This is the only way I could reconcile the point that smaller brings up.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd suggest you may have the sight of timing quite off.

Jesus tells us plainly, the timing in Mark 4:15.

So you're saying Judas was never saved.

Judas was with Jesus over 3 years. Could it be that he left all he knew for a "man" in whom he did not believe?And all the miracles he witnessed?

JLB makes good points for his salvation till the betrayal.

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi. LovethroughDove
What do you mean that it left a spot open?
Mathias was chosen to take
Judas' place, Acts 1:26
He became numbered among the 12.

What I meant is that Jesus knew all this would come about because Judas would kill himself, so there would still be 12 thrones, but Judas would not occupy one of them, but Mathias.

This is the only way I could reconcile the point that smaller brings up.

Wondering

The apostles chose Matthias. God didn't pick him. It would be like rolling the dice to predict what you should do.

 

[smaller]

So you're saying Judas was never saved.

There is exactly ZERO scriptural proof that Judas is now or will be in the LoF, period. That sight is entirely SURMISED in the mind of the reader. It is NOT substantiated by actual claims of scripture. I've pointed earlier in this thread to the hard written FACT that it is much easier for ME to see the fact that "all of Israel" shall be saved because they are beloved for the sakes of their fathers, from Romans 11:25-31. THAT sight is there, it is there for the taking, it is "written" and it can just as easily be believed as SURMISING contrary to "as it is written."

Judas was with Jesus over 3 years. Could it be that he left all he knew for a "man" in whom he did not believe?And all the miracles he witnessed?

I don't have any doubts whatsoever that 'all' believers deal with a spiritual adversary that works very hard to blind us all, even after belief. That doesn't mean I believe Jesus called A DEVIL His friend. And Jesus did call Judas his familar friend. I believe the "conveyances" given to the 12 by The Living Word, SAVED them. Not a one of them saved themselves.

JLB makes good points for his salvation till the betrayal.

And he also believes Satan is Gods son. I can't take much of JLB's postures seriously, on that basis alone.

 

[smaller]

As a bonus observation for all the freewill adherents, IF Judas had freewill, and Judas was a devil, that makes freewill, A DEVIL. John 6:70

 

[GodsGrace]

The apostles chose Matthias. God didn't pick him. It would be like rolling the dice to predict what you should do.

The apostles chose Matthias. God didn't pick him. It would be like rolling the dice to predict what you should do.

Is it like rolling the dice?
Luke 1:23 tells us that two men were put forward to take the place of Judas: Joseph and Matthias.
Luke 1:24 tells us that they prayed and asked the Lord which of the two should be chosen.
Luke 1:26. They drew lots and picked Matthias.

If we believe that the bible is inspired by God, we must also believe that God chose Matthias.

Wondering