Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

As a bonus observation for all the freewill adherents, IF Judas had freewill, and Judas was a devil, that makes freewill, A DEVIL. John 6:70

Someone said Judas was a devil?

I am a free will adherent.
But I also believe God is a sovereign being and can work all to achieve His goal.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Is it like rolling the dice?
Luke 1:23 tells us that two men were put forward to take the place of Judas: Joseph and Matthias.
Luke 1:24 tells us that they prayed and asked the Lord which of the two should be chosen.
Luke 1:26. They drew lots and picked Matthias.

If we believe that the bible is inspired by God, we must also believe that God chose Matthias.

Wondering

They cast lots (which is like rolling the dice).

 

[smaller]

Someone said Judas was a devil?

Actually several posters in this thread have said they think Judas was a devil, and likewise humans are therefore devils in such sights, as well as freewill, being, a, devil.

I am a free will adherent.
But I also believe God is a sovereign being and can work all to achieve His goal.

It is unlikely that your status of a believer exists as you, alone.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The notion of freewill DEMANDS that Christ in us has no bearing on our choices i.e. a dead and ineffective Spirit of Christ, with only the freewill of the individual being involved.

I'd consider it a Godless claim myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

They cast lots (which is like rolling the dice).

Yes. They rolled the dice.
But God chose the winner.

...

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Scripture is clear that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray Him.

Judas was a devil?
Please show how you come to this belief.
I've never heard this claim.


Wondering

 

[chessman]

And yes, those Words were spoken to Judas as well.

No they weren't. Judas left immediately after eating the bread, before Jesus said those words, according to John.

John 13:30-31 (LEB) So after he had taken the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night. Then, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him.

Luke 22:19 (LEB) And he took bread, and after giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
...
Luke 22:22, 28-30 For the Son of Man is going according to what has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!”
...
“And you are the ones who have remained with me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

After Judas had left, Jesus said "You are the ones who have remained...

 

[GodsGrace]

1. There is exactly ZERO scriptural proof that Judas is now or will be in the LoF, period. That sight is entirely SURMISED in the mind of the reader. It is NOT substantiated by actual claims of scripture. I've pointed earlier in this thread to the hard written FACT that it is much easier for ME to see the fact that "all of Israel" shall be saved because they are beloved for the sakes of their fathers, from Romans 11:25-31. THAT sight is there, it is there for the taking, it is "written" and it can just as easily be believed as SURMISING contrary to "as it is written."


1. SOME HERE BELIEVE NO ONE WILL BE IN THE LAKE

I don't have any doubts whatsoever that 'all' believers deal with a spiritual adversary that works very hard to blind us all, even after belief. That doesn't mean I believe Jesus called A DEVIL His friend. And Jesus did call Judas his familar friend. I believe the "conveyances" given to the 12 by The Living Word, SAVED them. Not a one of them saved themselves.


And he also believes Satan is Gods son. I can't take much of JLB's postures seriously, on that basis alone.

No they weren't. Judas left immediately after eating the bread, before Jesus said those words, according to John.

John 13:30-31 (LEB) So after he had taken the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night. Then, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him.

Luke 22:19 (LEB) And he took bread, and after giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
...
Luke 22:22, 28-30 For the Son of Man is going according to what has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!”
...
“And you are the ones who have remained with me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

After Judas had left, Jesus said "You are the ones whi have remained...

Good work Chessman!

 

[chessman]

Judas was a devil?
Please show how you come to this belief.
I've never heard this claim.


Wondering

John 6:67-71 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

 

[smaller]

No they weren't. Judas left immediately after eating the bread, before Jesus said those words, according to John.

There is nothing in John's account that precludes the below spoken to the 12, including Judas and prior to Judas' departure:

Luke 22:
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt. 19:28 makes a similar conveyance prior to Judas' departure.

After Judas had left, Jesus said "You are the ones whi have remained...

Except for those pesky facts showing otherwise. John doesn't even record the statement or when in the timeline it was said. Matt. records part of the fact conveyed to the disciples long prior to the account in Luke.

This much we do know that "all" the disciples were taught, including Judas:

Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

The remaining eleven are shown to be in outright denial and in unbelief of Jesus' Words, to His Face, at the last supper as well, as prior noted.

Matt. 26:
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

People don't realize that Peter denied Jesus TWICE, right there on the spot. The other disciples did as well. People just don't tend to see the obvious.

And we know for a fact they ALL forsook Him.

Mark 14:50
And they all forsook him, and fled.

Every last one of them was in denial and UNBELIEF of Jesus' Words at the last supper, to Jesus' Own Face. It was not just a Judas problem.

But you see, most readers, just like they, do NOT believe these things were BY GODS OWN HANDS.

Acts 4:26-28

 

[chessman]

There is nothing in John's account that precludes the below spoken to the 12, including Judas and prior to Judas' departure:

Sure there is. Judas left immediately after receiving the bread.

John 13:18, 21, 26-30 (LEB) “I am not speaking about all of you. I know whom I have chosen, but in order that the scripture would be fulfilled, ‘The one who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’ When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.” Jesus replied, “It is he to whom I dip the piece of bread and give it to him.” Then after dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. And after the piece of bread, then Satan entered into him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you are doing, do quickly!” Now no one of those reclining at table knew for what reason he said this to him. For some were thinking because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, “Purchase what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. So after he had taken the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night.​

So, did Satan enter Judas before or after he ate the bread? After.
Did Judas leave immediately (quickly) after eating the bread per Jesus' instructions and John's account, Yes or no? Yes!

Now read Luke's orderly accounting:

Luke 22:19 (LEB) And he took bread, and after giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” ​

Did Jesus give them (the 12) bread before or after giving thanks? After!
Then Judas leaves immediately, per John's account and Jesus' instructions. The verses you quoted come well after Judas ate the bread and "immediately" left the others. Some people believe what's written, some don't.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I think Scripture is clear that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray Him."

Ah, so you believe humans are devils too?

What I said came from Scripture. John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

It's no wonder believers endlessly argue when they don't know the difference between a human and a devil.

I think we all understand that Jesus wasn't being literal.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you're saying Judas was never saved.

Judas was with Jesus over 3 years. Could it be that he left all he knew for a "man" in whom he did not believe?And all the miracles he witnessed?

We know he was a thief who helped himself to the money bag.
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. John 12:6

He was an opportunist. Yes, he saw many miracles. So did the Pharisees. It just made them jealous and mad.

JLB makes good points for his salvation till the betrayal.
Wondering

The whole problem with his "points" and OP is the assumption that salvation can be lost. Which hasn't ever been proven nor shown from Scripture. I believe the exact opposite has been both shown and proven from Scripture.

But it seems the subject of eternal security is not politically correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

As a bonus observation for all the freewill adherents, IF Judas had freewill, and Judas was a devil, that makes freewill, A DEVIL. John 6:70

I believe such "logic" is quite fuzzy. It seems your idea is that God programmed Judas to betray Jesus. Based on what Scripture?

Consider Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

This verse teaches that God has placed everyone WHEN and WHERE they live. So God chose WHEN and WHERE Judas lived. Why? The obvious reason is that He knew what Judas would do in that specific circumstance. And his free will was intact.

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas was a devil?
Please show how you come to this belief.
I've never heard this claim.
Wondering

John 6:70 was a quote from Jesus. "Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

But I don't believe that Jesus was speaking literally.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:70 was a quote from Jesus. "Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

But I don't believe that Jesus was speaking literally.

I agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

We know he was a thief who helped himself to the money bag.
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. John 12:6

He was an opportunist. Yes, he saw many miracles. So did the Pharisees. It just made them jealous and mad.


The whole problem with his "points" and OP is the assumption that salvation can be lost. Which hasn't ever been proven nor shown from Scripture. I believe the exact opposite has been both shown and proven from Scripture.

But it seems the subject of eternal security is not politically correct.

As I've said, both sides seem correct now that JLB has stated his conviction.

As far as eternal security, you must know by now that I do not believe in eternal security.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Sure there is. Judas left immediately after receiving the bread.

Receiving the sop was done AFTER supper and after they had their feet washed.

So, did Satan enter Judas before or after he ate the bread? After.

IF we were employing the understandings of sin given to us by Paul we'd understand that every one of the disciples were in no different shape than those in Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Col. 2:13, 1 John 3:8, among others similar.

Specifically we know that Judas began his engagement of betrayal after the alabaster box breaking, Jesus feet washed with tears, dried with hair account in Matt. 26. John 13:2 shows the activity had already transpired as to the betrayal, as does Matt. 26, BEFORE the last supper, and that Judas had the components of betrayal in place ahead of the last supper, from Matt. 26:14-16.

Did Judas leave immediately (quickly) after eating the bread per Jesus' instructions and John's account, Yes or no? Yes!

John's statement does NOT preclude the validity of what Jesus said to the twelve inclusive of Judas, in Luke 22:29-30. Which is what you are trying to claim. But that claim won't work for several reasons.

Now read Luke's orderly accounting:

Luke 22:19 (LEB) And he took bread, and after giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” ​

Did Jesus give them (the 12) bread before or after giving thanks? After!
Then Judas leaves immediately,

Not according to John. The event of departure transpired after supper. John 13:2. Even after they ALL had their feet washed, which we can correlate right to Luke 22:27 ( and to John 13:16)

per John's account and Jesus' instructions. The verses you quoted come well after Judas ate the bread and "immediately" left the others. Some people believe what's written, some don't.

And some should examine the details as they are, and not make Jesus' Words spoken to the disciples in Luke 12:32, Matt. 19:28 invalid in the process. The sop event came after supper was ended, after the foot washing and it was done to pinpoint Judas after strife broke out among them all.

Even with putting all 4 Gospel accounts together, it is NOT meant as a hard time line account. All the accounts vary as to details recorded. None of the accounts record exactly the same things being said or are an exact timeline of when they were said.

John for example doesn't record the cup event at all. The other accounts don't record the foot washing. But we know Judas was present for both.

I would not dispute that John's very LONG recording of Jesus' Statements came after Judas' sop reception and departure. But John's account does NOT preclude Judas being present in Luke 22:29:30 and this also confirms the facts of Matt. 19:28 and Luke 12:32, the same Words that Judas was present for THEN as well.

The statement of the 12 thrones in Luke 22:30 (and the appointment in vs. 28) was stated to the 12 while Judas was still present AND correlates to the similar statement in Luke 12:32 and Matt. 19:28 spoken to them prior. There is no reason to see the REITERATION not applicable to JUDAS at the last supper. John records nothing of Luke 22:28-30.

We can correlate Luke 22:27 right up to John 13:16 as well for which Judas was still present in John's account, and even to vs. 28 if we pay attention to what was happening with Judas and the devil.

There is no reason to exclude Luke 22:29-30 as being spoken while Judas was still present.

 

[smaller]

I believe such "logic" is quite fuzzy. It seems your idea is that God programmed Judas to betray Jesus. Based on what Scripture?

Scriptures do not present Judas only in the matters. They present Judas and Satan.

As to Divine Intentions? Absolutely what Judas did was by Gods Own Intentions. Acts 4:26-28 spells that out rather clearly, as does Jesus at the last supper and many times prior when Jesus stated these events MUST transpire. Matt. 16:21. It was certainly no FREE WILL free for all accident as free willers demand to have it.

And you neglected entirely to answer a very simple question even after taking the time to respond twice:

Are people devils?

And if Judas had freewill and was also a devil, then it might appear that freewill is also a devil by such sights.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I here some claiming the logic, that there was no way to repent and be forgiven by the Lord.


Here we see some of those who were with Jesus, when He died.

Seems like the perfect time to repent to the Lord and be forgiven.


25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27



The thief on the cross, received his.
Jesus chose to limit Himself most of the time by only forgiving the sins of those in close proximity to Him. Judas again was not in close proximity due to Jesus being on trial and even though he tried to repent he only had the Temple as his option. When they turned him down, he had no hope. If Judas had survived until after the crucifixion then he would have had an avenue.

JLB

 

[chessman]

John's statement does NOT preclude the validity of what Jesus said to the twelve inclusive of Judas

Judas wasn't there with the others when Jesus spoke Luke 22:28-30.

Jesus' statements are valid.
John's statements are valid.
Luke's account is valid.

Poof, simple logic tells us that Judas wasn't there when you claim he was there to hear Jesus speak Luke 22:28-30.

John 13:26-30 (NKJV) Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.​

Judas left immediately after a piece of bread was dipped and served by Jesus to Judas, yes after supper, and after Satan entered Judas and after Jesus told him to leave quickly. That's the point.

Luke 22:20-21 (NKJV) Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.​

They had already eaten supper and Judas was still there at this point (obviously). Then, taking a piece of bread Jesus dips it in wine and served it to Judas. Then Satan entered Judas. Then Jesus told Judas to leave quickly and do what he must. And Judas did just that very thing. He left quickly/immediately. Simple. True. Valid.

But that claim won't work for several reasons.

The event of departure transpired after supper.

I know. That's what both (Luke 22:20) and John (John 13:2) say. Jesus dipped a piece of bread in wine and gave it to Judas after supper. So???

Even after they ALL had their feet washed,

Yes, they had their feet washed prior to supper, then ate supper. So??? Then Jesus dipped a piece of bread into the wine and served it to Judas. Then Satan entered Judas. Then Jesus told Judas to leave quickly and he did just that very thing.

Even after they ALL had their feet washed, which we can correlate right to Luke 22:27 ( and to John 13:16)

Jesus washes their feet and says:

John 13:16 (NKJV) Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. ​

Jesus sent Judas away with Satan in him immediately/quickly. Jesus is greater than them both.

Luke 22:27 (NKJV) For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.​

Judas was no longer sitting at the table nor among them. As I said. Jesus just got through sending them away, per John 13:16 and John 13:2 AND Luke 22:27...

There is no conflict with these separate accounts. There is conflict if Judas didn't actually leave immediately/quickly after Jesus sent him to do what he must do, though.