Please explain how "both sides", which are diametrically opposed, can be correct.
OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. And the gifts of God are irrevocable.
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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I didn't say both sides are correct.
Of course that's impossible.
I said both sides SEEM correct (now that I've heard the other side).
Wondering
JohnDB
Member
Two things that cannot be true at the same time but yet are true is what is referred to as a PARADOX.
Surely the Bible doesn't have any of these things in it. *Snicker*
And then there is that story in Joshua 9 about the Gibeonite deception...Why couldn't the Israelites attack them?
Surely there are no parallels in this?
I here some claiming the logic, that there was no way to repent and be forgiven by the Lord.
Here we see some of those who were with Jesus, when He died.
Seems like the perfect time to repent to the Lord and be forgiven.
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27
The thief on the cross, received his.
Judas chose to commit suicide, rather than repenting to God.
JLB
Here we see some of those who were with Jesus, when He died.
Seems like the perfect time to repent to the Lord and be forgiven.
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27
The thief on the cross, received his.
Judas chose to commit suicide, rather than repenting to God.
JLB
Are you saying that no believer ever stole anything?
Does your theology teach it is impossible for a believer to steal, or lie or commit adultery.
Here Paul warned the Church at Galatia, believers in Jesus Christ, more than once if they continued to practice the works of the flesh, they would not inherit the kingdom of God.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Your claim that Judas wasn't a believer because he took money from the money bag, holds no weight in the light of scripture.
The scripture says, that the apostles, including Judas, believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, in which they all continued to follow Him, when the other disciples turned back from following Him, proving that they continued to believe.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away? ”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-68
Your opinion, doesn't line up with what the scripture teaches us.
JLB
Yes, Jesus trusted Judas, and referred to him as a trusted friend, according to the scriptures.
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18
This is a quote from Psalms 41, about Judas betraying Jesus -
Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
In the case of Judas, he cannot be both saved and unsaved at precisely the same time.
A paradox does not apply here.
Wondering
Here it is straight from Jesus, about "unbelieving" after having believed the Gospel.
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15
Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while
If a person believes, then later they return to unbelieving, having believed for a while, are they still a believer?
JLB
Judas went from believing and following Christ as a disciple, then sent out as an apostle, having been empowered by Jesus Christ to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, in which he was appointed to sit on one of the twelve thrones with Christ, to falling by transgression and going to hell; "to his own place".
If a wife is married to her husband for three years, then betrays him, for another man, does that mean she was never married to him?
That's what they would have you to believe, the woman was never married to the man, whom she betrayed.
They would have you believe that Judas never believed Jesus is the Christ, though he followed Him.
They would have you believe, that Judas never believed the Gospel he preached.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25
How can it be said that Judas fell away from Christ, and the ministry in which Christ gave him, if first he was never a partaker of Christ.
JLB
If one knows that both sides cannot be correct, why bother saying that both sides seem so? Of course they can't be. And if one truly understands each side, then the conclusion is that only one side seems corrrect, because, in their eyes, it is correct. Whether or not that's even true.
While I fully understand the view of loss of salvation, it will never seem correct to me. Because I know all that Scripture says, which directly refutes the view.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I've always felt that Judas was different from the others.
The others seemed to love Jesus and I never saw this love emminating from Judas.
He seemed to be more concerned with worldly things instead of spiritual things.
It seems to me he was disappointed in Jesus for not fulfilling the goals Judas had for Him.
For instance, not becoming a chief priest of the Sanhedrin to gain worldly power, or overthrowing the Romans somehow.
I've never studied this fully and your insight has been very informative and given me new ideas to think about. He must have believed in Jesus at the beginning but there are different meanings to "believe".
Right now I'd have to say that you do prove the case for his having had salvific belief at some point.
Wondering
I said this:
"OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. And the gifts of God are irrevocable."
How's that for Scripture? Pretty much nails it, huh.
And speaking of God's call, Paul included Gentiles, just as God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile.
"As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one," Rom 9:25
For there is nodistinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him Rom 10:12
"OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. And the gifts of God are irrevocable."
OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable
How's that for Scripture? Pretty much nails it, huh.
And speaking of God's call, Paul included Gentiles, just as God's gifts are for both Jew and Gentile.
"As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one," Rom 9:25
For there is nodistinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him Rom 10:12
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I just wrote to JLB. This will also answer your first paragraph.
As to your second paragraph regarding eternal salvation...
Could you show me an early church father who believed in eternal security?
From my best knowledge, they all pleaded to believe in Jesus, to do good works, and to hold fast.
Why would this have been necessary if OSAS??
Wondering
I really cannot understand how anyone would come up with such questions from what I posted. All believers are sinners. That's what I posted.
Just the opposite. It is your own opinion which does not line up with what Scripture teaches us about ol' Judas.
John 6;64 - "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Then, in the same context, v.70 - Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
Jesus knew that Judas NEVER believed, and would betray Him. He said so.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Just read the above.
It nails nothing.
The free gift of God is IN Christ Jesus, our Lord.
We must be IN Christ Jesus and He must be our Lord.
If one stops believing, is he in the Christ?
Is Jesus his Lord?
No and No.
God revokes no gifts. They are available to all...
As long as we want them.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Jesus was speaking to disciples that were following Him.
He always knew not all "followers" were believers.
And who it was that would betray Him is a different sentence because NOW Jesus is speaking about Judas.
..