Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[FreeGrace]

I just wrote to JLB. This will also answer your first paragraph.

As to your second paragraph regarding eternal salvation...
Could you show me an early church father who believed in eternal security?

I don't get my theology from any "early church father", all of whom were AFTER the writing of Scripture. I go to the source, the Bible itself.

I couldn't help notice that my comment about God's gifts, being irrevocable, and eternal life, being a gift of God, weren't acknowledged.

That's why I'm more convinced about eternal security than any of the anti-OSAS types are about their conditional security.

From my best knowledge, they all pleaded to believe in Jesus, to do good works, and to hold fast.

Why would this have been necessary if OSAS??
Wondering

The key is "necessary...for what?" What is necessary for blessings and eternal reward is "to do good works and to hold fast."

So, why hold up the early church fathers as being anti-OSAS? If they taught that good works and holding fast were FOR salvation, then they were just screwed up and totally misunderstood Scripture.

But every believer should do good works and to hold fast. Just not to maintain salvation. It's for blessings and reward.

 

[GodsGrace]

Opinion only. No Scripture.

John 3:16

You must believe to be saved.

..

 

[FreeGrace]

Just read the above.
It nails nothing.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The free gift of God is IN Christ Jesus, our Lord.

I've never suggested otherwise.

We must be IN Christ Jesus and He must be our Lord.
If one stops believing, is he in the Christ?

He IS the Christ, whether we believe or obey or not.

Is Jesus his Lord?

He IS the Lord, whether we bleieve or obey or not.

No and No.

Yes, and yes.

God revokes no gifts. They are available to all...
As long as we want them.

Opinion without Scripture.

 

[JLB]

OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable

How's that for Scripture? Pretty much nails it, huh.

Not at all.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The calling of the Gospel is still available to the Jews, who were "broken off", because of unbelief, in which if they through the calling of the Gospel, do believe, they will be grafted back in.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:21-29


The context:

The unbelieving Jews still have the calling of the gospel available to them.


The point:

If a person has the calling of the Gospel available to them, because of unbelief, then by default they do not have eternal life.



JLB


I will not address anymore of your OSAS post's.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 3:16

You must believe to be saved.

..

Of course. I never suggested otherwise.

The issue is for those who HAVE believed. They are:
1. sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14,4:30
2. they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24
3. they WILL NEVER PERISH, John 3:16, 10:28.

iow, eternally secure.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't get my theology from any "early church father", all of whom were AFTER the writing of Scripture. I go to the source, the Bible itself.

I couldn't help notice that my comment about God's gifts, being irrevocable, and eternal life, being a gift of God, weren't acknowledged.

That's why I'm more convinced about eternal security than any of the anti-OSAS types are about their conditional security.


The key is "necessary...for what?" What is necessary for blessings and eternal reward is "to do good works and to hold fast."

So, why hold up the early church fathers as being anti-OSAS? If they taught that good works and holding fast were FOR salvation, then they were just screwed up and totally misunderstood Scripture.

But every believer should do good works and to hold fast. Just not to maintain salvation. It's for blessings and reward.

Not at my computer and am limited.
The early church fathers were during and immediately after the Gospels and letters were written.
You're statement that you do not adhere to "any" church father shows total disrespect for those who died for their faith. It's appalling.

They were around hundreds of years before the Bible you trust was even put together as a complete work.
It would be nice for you to study Christian history.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK. Even though eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable

How's that for Scripture? Pretty much nails it, huh."

Not at all.

Opinion without Scripture.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Since eternal life is a gift of God, it is irrevocable. No one has shown otherwise.

The calling of the Gospel is still available to the Jews, who were "broken off", because of unbelief, in which if they through the calling of the Gospel, do believe, they will be grafted back in.

Both the gifts and call of God are for both Jew and Gentile. As I showed from Rom 9:25 and 10:12 for God's call, and from Rom 1:11, 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and 6:23 for some of God's gifts.

I will not address anymore of your OSAS post's.

Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course. I never suggested otherwise.

The issue is for those who HAVE believed. They are:
1. sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14,4:30
2. they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24
3. they WILL NEVER PERISH, John 3:16, 10:28.

iow, eternally secure.

If they are eternally secure, why does the Bible speak to "falling away"??
Cannot give scripture right now...

 

[FreeGrace]

Not at my computer and am limited.
The early church fathers were during and immediately after the Gospels and letters were written.
You're statement that you do not adhere to "any" church father shows total disrespect for those who died for their faith. It's appalling.

It's appalling when one misunderstands what was clearly stated. I don't hold up the "early church fathers" equal to the writing of Scripture.

They were around hundreds of years before the Bible you trust was even put together as a complete work.

This is in error. Serious error. They all came AFTER Scripture was written. They are from the 2nd Century.

It would be nice for you to study Christian history.
Wondering

You have my blessing to study it yourself and learn which Century the "early church fathers" came from.

If they were around "hundreds of years before the Bible was even put together", that would date these "early church fathers" as having lived BEFORE Christ was even born. Comfortable with that?

 

[FreeGrace]

If they are eternally secure, why does the Bible speak to "falling away"??
Cannot give scripture right now...

Why would God NOT want His children to stay faithful? But there is NO Scripture that teaches that falling from the faith equals falling from salvation. That is just opinion by some, and totally without any Scripture to back up their opinion.

What such people seem to forget/ignore/reject is all the warnings of God's discipline to His children for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

And the teaching that blessings will be lost as well as eternal rewards.

That's the total disconnect of those who preach anti-OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's appalling when one misunderstands what was clearly stated. I don't hold up the "early church fathers" equal to the writing of Scripture.


This is in error. Serious error. They all came AFTER Scripture was written. They are from the 2nd Century.


You have my blessing to study it yourself and learn which Century the "early church fathers" came from.

If they were around "hundreds of years before the Bible was even put together", that would date these "early church fathers" as having lived BEFORE Christ was even born. Comfortable with that?

I don't understand your last sentence.
It's silly and I never stated that.

Ignatius of Antioch knew John the apostle...

And who exactly put the Bible together into one book if not the early church fathers who did come later in the 300's??

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would God NOT want His children to stay faithful? But there is NO Scripture that teaches that falling from the faith equals falling from salvation. That is just opinion by some, and totally without any Scripture to back up their opinion.

What such people seem to forget/ignore/reject is all the warnings of God's discipline to His children for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

And the teaching that blessings will be lost as well as eternal rewards.

That's the total disconnect of those who preach anti-OSAS.

We've been through this before...
2 Peter 2:22 comes to mind.
But I will not argue this at infinitum...

It seems more than clear that Christianity believed one COULD fall away until Mr. Calvin decided to read into scripture what was convenient, but not present.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would God NOT want His children to stay faithful? But there is NO Scripture that teaches that falling from the faith equals falling from salvation. That is just opinion by some, and totally without any Scripture to back up their opinion.

What such people seem to forget/ignore/reject is all the warnings of God's discipline to His children for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

And the teaching that blessings will be lost as well as eternal rewards.

That's the total disconnect of those who preach anti-OSAS.

Jesus did not concentrate His preaching on blessings and rewards.
He spoke of heaven and hell.
He came here to teach us how to stay out of hell, not how to get more "rewards."

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

Actually several posters in this thread have said they think Judas was a devil, and likewise humans are therefore devils in such sights, as well as freewill, being, a, devil.

That is what Jesus said, and that's what you should build on. Instead you say it's not true, so you have already gone astray.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Twelve men were chosen, and one man was a devil. That's it. Since Judas was a devil, Judas was never saved.

And Jesus didn't say, one of you will become a devil if you betray me.

Did Judas have a choice? Maybe Jesus should have explained things to Judas - See Judas, if you betray me you will go hell. If not you will be saved. But then who would betray Jesus so that the scripture would be fulfilled? Did Jesus choose Judas at random, hoping Judas would betray him? No. Jesus knew Judas was a devil, and he knew Judas would betray him.

 

[JLB]

Opinion without Scripture.

Here is my post again, as I responded to your claim, with the scripture written out, that you say is without scripture.

Not at all.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The calling of the Gospel is still available to the Jews, who were "broken off", because of unbelief, in which if they through the calling of the Gospel, do believe, they will be grafted back in.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:21-29


The context:

The unbelieving Jews still have the calling of the gospel available to them.


The point:

If a person has the calling of the Gospel available to them, because of unbelief, then by default they do not have eternal life.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

"Saved" definitions time....

By saved what do people mean?

Does it mean that they are entitled to eternal life?

Does it mean that they are safe for the moment?

A personal relationship with Jesus/God?

Judas life and subsequent failure was foretold in scripture hundreds of years before he fell from Grace.

That Judas was counted as being one of the Apostles...That he belonged to Jesus there is no doubt. But his failure also was without doubt.

So it goes to definitions. What do people mean that Judas was "saved"? Or not "Saved"?

 

[smaller]

Judas wasn't there with the others when Jesus spoke Luke 22:28-30.

However you care to slice it, every Word of God was meant for Judas. Even for you and I. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. I have no reason to see Luke 22:28-30 as not applicable to Judas. The same Words were spoken to him prior as well, as noted in prior posts.

Jesus' statements are valid.
John's statements are valid.
Luke's account is valid.

Poof, simple logic tells us that Judas wasn't there when you claim he was there to hear Jesus speak Luke 22:28-30.

I don't think that can be proven myself. The 4 account of the last supper vary, intentionally. They are not meant to be hard line time definitive accounts.

IN any case of sights the same Words were also delivered prior, as were "all things" taught to the disciples including Judas. Mark 4:34.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Saved" definitions time....

By saved what do people mean?

Does it mean that they are entitled to eternal life?

Does it mean that they are safe for the moment?

A personal relationship with Jesus/God?

Judas life and subsequent failure was foretold in scripture hundreds of years before he fell from Grace.

That Judas was counted as being one of the Apostles...That he belonged to Jesus there is no doubt. But his failure also was without doubt.

So it goes to definitions. What do people mean that Judas was "saved"? Or not "Saved"?

What does it mean to be saved?
Saved from what?

We are saved from ourselves and all the harm we can do if we follow the Lord.
We are saved from others because we understand why they act the way they do, listening to the evil one.
Saved from the wiles of the devil and his temptations which lead us astray.
Saved from being away from God for eternity...hell.
Saved to be with God.
Saved to understand the gospel message of joy in God and not in the world.
Saved to know the truth, and the truth shall make us free.
The truth is that satan wants our soul to make us by unhappy and lost. That truth should free us to go to God.

What else??

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That is what Jesus said, and that's what you should build on. Instead you say it's not true, so you have already gone astray.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Twelve men were chosen, and one man was a devil. That's it. Since Judas was a devil, Judas was never saved.

And Jesus didn't say, one of you will become a devil if you betray me.

Did Judas have a choice? Maybe Jesus should have explained things to Judas - See Judas, if you betray me you will go hell. If not you will be saved. But then who would betray Jesus so that the scripture would be fulfilled? Did Jesus choose Judas at random, hoping Judas would betray him? No. Jesus knew Judas was a devil, and he knew Judas would betray him.

§Everyone who betrays Jesus is a "devil" because he is on the side of satan and not on the side of God.
Jesus also said we should pluck our eyes out and cut off limbs.
I don't see anyone insisting that He meant THAT literally...
Judas was not a devil. He was in the sense that he served the devil.
Just as satan spoke through Peter. Get thee behind me satan.
Was Peter satan??

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Two things that cannot be true at the same time but yet are true is what is referred to as a PARADOX.

Surely the Bible doesn't have any of these things in it. *Snicker*

About the most intelligent sight I've seen in the thread. Of course there was a paradox involved with Judas, because there was Judas and Satan.

It is no leap of logic to see two different parties and it is no leap of logic to understand that God does NOT deal with the parties in the same way whatsoever. One for example could be forgiven and the other NEVER forgiven.

And yes, that IS indeed a paradox of gigantic proportions. Luke 22:3, John 13:27