Philosophy is not the way to wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Philosophy is not the way to wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
chessman
Member
Per this site's Statement of Faith, it means dwelling forever in Heaven:
"We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever..."
And is obtainable by a personal faith in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. Something that Judas did not have prior to his death:
"We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance."
Note that the OP's case is based entirely on Judas' human merit and performance.
Eternal life is a gift, just as sure as the Father's love of the Son:
John 17:1-2 (NKJV) Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
Yes, and eternally saved too.
Per this sites' Statement of Faith:
"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."
smaller
Member
IF your positions sight was true, then there would be TWO devils, Judas and Satan, as noted to you prior. Your position overlooks the obvious devil, Satan, and nothing more than that. Mark 4:15, Luke 22:3, John 13:27.
Jesus NEVER said people were devils. Ever. Your position has a basic flaw in reasoning that that is a difference between a slave/captive of sin, and the captor.
I left you and others who think Judas was a devil some sights that come with people being devils, such as Judas, a couple times earlier in this thread, as such sights bring a plethora of difficulties that can't be harmonized:
That Jesus calls a devil to be a disciple. Matt. 10:1
That Jesus claims a devil is an Apostle. Matt. 10:2
That Jesus calls a sheep, a devil. Matt. 10:16
That Jesus says The Father Speaks through a devil. Matt. 10:20
That Jesus empowers a devil to cast out devils. Matt. 10:8, Mark 3:15, Luke 9:1
That Jesus empowers a devil to heal the sick. Matt. 10:8, Mark 3:14, Luke 9:1
That Jesus made a series of untrue statements to the 12 Apostle/disciples. (too many to even list)
That God calls a devil to Christ. John 6:65
That Jesus calls a devil His friend. Psalm 41:9, Matt. 26:48-50
Absolutely not. It was not "just Judas" involved. God WAS Involved. Satan was involved. There is never just the "will of the man" in play in any line of scripture. There is always 3 parties.
Jesus was quite clear that "all" the sheep would be scattered and that He Himself would be killed, just "as it was written." Not one of the players involved with these events had a "freewill" choice in the matters. Zech. 13:7, Matt. 16:21, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27, Acts 4:26-28.
No freewill choice even existed. No choices would have stopped Jesus from going to His Cross in the very precise manners that transpired. Gods Own Hand was upon the entirety of the events, directing the WHOLE course and discourses.
I think your positions are exceptionally lacking when the simple difference between Satan and Judas isn't even on your radar.
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When we begin to understand "saved by faith", or "saved through faith", vs, receiving the salvation of our soul in the end, we then begin to understand why the writers of the New Testament emphasized continuing in the faith, and continuing to believe to the end.
It is as simple as understanding what faith is, and seeing the language of faith being expressed in scripture.
- The intangible unseen substance existing within our being, that is a gift from God, and comes by hearing His voice directly or through those He sends with His word.
If we are saved by faith, then by default we have the hope of salvation, which we will receive at the consummation or end [end result] of our faith.
...Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Now, we have the hope of salvation; the hope of inheriting eternal life.
...that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7
- Did Judas Iscariot, during the 3 1/2 years of following Jesus, hear the word [Gospel Message] of God, by which faith came to him, as the other Apostles did?
- Did during the 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and being taught by Him, did Judas Iscariot believe?
- We know that Judas preached the Gospel to the lost, along with the others.
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
We know that Judas baptized people, along with the others. Matthew 10:1-4
- We know that Judas baptized people, along with the others.
Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. John 4:1-3
It really just comes down to this question: Did Jesus appoint, ordain, and empower an unbeliever, to represent the kingdom of God to the nation of Israel.
- I believe the scripture teaches us that Judas believed, and was saved by faith for a while, then fell by transgression, and ended up being lost.
This is what the parable of the prodigal son teaches.
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.
Luke 15:32
In Context to this parable the parable of the lost sheep, teaches the same thing.
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7
The sheep belonged to the Shepherd, but became lost, and was considered as a sinner who needed to repent, in order to be "found".
JLB
When does a person receive the salvation of their soul?
At the beginning of their faith, or the end?
JLB
- Those who believe, and are justified, have the hope of eternal life.
- Eternal life is received at the end of a fruitful life of holiness.
- Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
Those who live immoral, disobedient lives can expect to receive the indignation and wrath of God, like the biblical example of Judas Iscariot, who believed for a while, then fell by transgression.
JLB
chessman
Member
Of course they do. And what's more to the point is that this justification that we have (not might have) was done according to His mercy and grace through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us abundantly (but never did for Judas). Thus we are saved, not by our works (or Judas') of righteousness which we have done (or Judas supposedly did). Just as the SoF says.
Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV) But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
That's entirely counter to what the verse actually says.
Romans 6:22 (NKJV) But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Having been set free from sin (death) we have three things:
1. Have become slaves of God
2. Have our fruit (holiness, i.e. the Holy Spirit)
3. Have the end (everlasting life)
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This was in your post #768:
"The early church fathers were during and immediately after the Gospels and letters were written.
You're statement that you do not adhere to "any" church father shows total disrespect for those who died for their faith. It's appalling.
They were around hundreds of years before the Bible you trust was even put together as a complete work.
It would be nice for you to study Christian history."
Based on the first paragraph above, one can only conclude that the "They" in the second paragraph are the early church fathers.
Was he inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Holy Scripture?
Ah, now we're (maybe) getting somewhere. While they put the Bible together, none of them wrote it.
What's to argue, anyway? There is nothing in that verse about losing salvation.
I'm not a fan of Calvin any more than the early church fathers, who mostly abandoned the biblical teaching of grace by the 2nd Century.
And, the Bible very specifically does warn of falling away. But again, why should anyone assume that the term means to lose salvation? That's what I don't understand.
Jesus was clear in Luke 8:13 that to "fall away" meant only "to believe for a while". Nothing about losing salvation.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What do you have to do to be saved?
Well, Rev 22:12 readily comes to mind:
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.
Please don't make the common error by saying that He was referring to salvation. Because salvation cannot be a reward, or it's earned, and not given in grace. Can't have it both ways.
I've just given a verse that is directly contrary to your opinion.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What if I don't DO anything?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
None of them wrote it.
They just died for it and the Lord that has changed your life.
..
As I've already shown a number of times, both the gifts and call of God are for both Jews and Gentiles.
But everyone is free to their own opinions. But Scripture is quite clear.
References:
Rom 1:11, 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and 6:23 regarding some of God's gifts to both Jews and Gentiles
Rom 9:25 and 10:25 regarding the call of God also being for both Jews and Gentiles
So the notion that Rom 11:29 is ONLY for unbelieving Jews and the gift is ONLY a promise of salvation is false.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Jesus didn't speak much about grace.
He did speak a lot about what we have to do to get to heaven.
And how we have to change.
The beatitudes.
Mathew 5:3-8
No, Jesus was clear about those who have believed HAVE it already, per John 5:24.
No, because both John 3:16, 5:24 and 10:28 clearly indicate that those who have believed and have eternal life will never perish.
Yes, that's part of salvation.
He was chosen, and I think it's clear what he was chosen for; to betray Jesus.
Whether he ever had eternal life or not.
The better question is what does "end of their faith" mean? The end means the completion, when one has placed their full trust in Jesus Christ. There is no evidence from Scripture that suggests "end of one's faith" means "end of one's life". That is an assumption. And a false one at that.
That's a great question. And one that a certain jailer from Philippi asked Paul. The answer is found in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
If one does not place their trust/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, that one will not ever have the gift of eternal life, and will spend eternity in the lake of fire.