Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"To date, no one has shown from Scripture that Judas ever believed or was ever saved. All that has been posted is speculation and assumption about Judas."

Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

I am generally inclined to agree about Judas being a false disciple from the first, but tend to choke on Matthew 10:1 and am thus unable to make such a strong claim as a definitive statement of fact.[/QUOTE}
Matt doesn't say that Judas believed, or that Judas was saved, or anything close to that. One must assume or speculate that the verse suggests that he ever did believe and was saved.

Further, John 6:64 and 70 and John 13:10-11 refutes the idea that Judas ever believed or was saved.

It must be relegated to a personal opinion supported by some scriptures and challenged by others with no irrefutable proof one way or another. Setting aside 'saved' (a whole different kettle a fish), how do YOU reconcile an unbelieving Judas with the authority specifically granted by Jesus to Judas in Matthew 10:1?

Jesus had the authority and power to empower anyone He wanted, and for anything He wanted. Reconciliation is quite easy.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Irrelevant question, because he left in John 13:30. Therefore, he wasn't being addressed in ch 15."

Pertinent question since the teaching in John 15 was about disciples.

Please explain HOW it is relevant since Judas wasn't even present when Jesus spoke the words of John 15.

This teaching specifically pertained to Judas, and revealed his fate, since he was a disciple, and the topic concerned disciples.

There is no mention of Judas, so your claim is speculation only.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

• Judas was counted as "a sheep", rather than a wolf.

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16

Jesus was quite clear in John 10 that there were "My sheep, other sheep of Mine, and those not of My sheep". So please clearly explain how Judas was not of the category of "not of My sheep".

Recall that in Matt 10:16 Jesus didn't call them "My sheep", but only "sheep".

Once again a huge leap must be made to connect your dots.

John 6:64 and 70 paired with John 13:9-10 refute the notion that Judas was ever saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Those who didn't believe, turned from Him and no longer followed Him.

It is speculation or assumption to conclude that ALL who didn't believe no longer followed Him. The text doesn't make that statement.

Was Judas among that group, who went back from Him, in this passage?
JLB

Judas wasn't clean, as Jesus noted in John 13:9-10, and Judas stayed with the money bag, of course, being a thief.

 

[JLB]

Respectfully,
You are drawing inferences from the FACT that Judas did not leave with the others in John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. [NIV]
Your conclusision is that he did not leave because he still believed.

Yet John 6:70 states Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” [NIV] which you choose to ignore and John 12:6 states He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. [NIV]

It seems more than idle speculation that the "thief" (John 12:6) who "is a devil" (John 6:70) may have had a reason not leave with the other unbelieving 'disciples' who "turned back" in John 6:66. Judas having faith is clearly not the only possible reason for him to stay. In my opinion, it is not even the most likely reason for him to stay given the reality of John 6:70.

I basing what I believe from the actual language that the scripture uses.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

"We" refers to the twelve.

This is what the scripture teaches.

It seems more than idle speculation that the "thief"may have had a reason not leave with the other unbelieving 'disciples' who "turned back"

Is it possible for a person who believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, to also be a thief?

Could a thief, who is a believer ever be forgiven?

who "is a devil" (John 6:70)

Here is the definition of devil.

Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
      
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
   

Do you believe Judas was a man or an unclean spirit; devil

• Judas was a man, that sided with the devil.
• Judas became a guide for those who arrested Jesus, thus betraying Jesus.

“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; Acts 1:16

Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ, one of the original twelve who were sent out as Apostles, then later he fell away, and became a guide for those who arrested Jesus.

By saying he became a guide... the scripture is indicating he wasn't always a guide for those who arrested Jesus, but "became" a guide.

He was a disciple who believed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, then fell and ended up becoming a guide for those who arrested Jesus.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I already answered this question. No.

Ok, then you agree that those who turned back from following Him, were the "they" who didn't believe.

Your turn to answer; Did Jesus say these words that those that turn back from Him and walked with Him no longer?

John 6:64 (NKJV) "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
And did John not tell us exactly why Jesus said those words to the 12?

If I said;
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who would win the presidential election and Trump would be President.' would that not clearly mean that Trump would win the election along with Pence and the rest of the Republican party???

Ok, so your saying that those who turned back, were the ones who didn't believe along with the twelve?



JLB

 

[MarkT]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


The principle of being clean, found in John is clear, and is explained by Jesus in Chapter 15.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

Jesus just explained that the branches "in Him" are pruned, which is how the branch is cleaned.

Clean here means - Strong's G2513 - katharos

clean, pure

1. physically
   1. purified by fire
   2. in a similitude, like a vine cleansed by pruning and so fitted to bear fruit
2. in a levitical sense
   1. clean, the use of which is not forbidden, imparts no uncleanness
3. ethically
   1. free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt
   2. free from every admixture of what is false, sincere genuine
   3. blameless, innocent
   4. unstained with the guilt of anything

Judas did not abide [remain connected] in Him, and was cast out like a branch.


This lesson is for all of us, who have the hope of inheriting eternal life, that we must remain connected in Him, by continuing in the faith, that is to say, continuing to believe and hold fast, [keep] the word, and bear fruit, like the example Jesus taught us.

Paul said it this way:

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

The hope of inheriting eternal life, is the substance of faith; the faith we have in Christ Jesus, and is the unseen evidence of our hope.

...that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

• Jesus taught us about this very thing, here in this parable:

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Here is the question: Which one of these 4 groups, will end up inheriting eternal life?



JLB

How can you possibly think prune means clean?

To prune a branch is to make it produce more by cutting away the bad parts. The pruning in John 15:2 is related to our understanding of the word. It means the more we are given in the way of understanding the word, ie. knowledge, faith, etc., the more God gives us. "For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away." Mt. 25:29

However, John 13:10 is about bathing - Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.” John 13:10 And John 15:3 tells us they were made clean by the word - 'You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you'. John 15:3

So this is what Jesus meant when he said Judas was not clean. Judas wasn't washed by the word because the word was not in him.

 

[JLB]

How can you possibly think prune means clean?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
John 15:1-3

Pruning is associated with clean: cleansed.



Prune - Strong's G2508 - kathairō

to cleanse, of filth impurity, etc

1. to prune trees and vines from useless shoots
   
   
2. metaph. from guilt, to expiate
   

JLB

 

[JLB]

So this is what Jesus meant when he said Judas was not clean. Judas wasn't washed by the word because the word was not in him.

John 13 is at the end of Jesus' ministry and life on earth, at the time of the Passover.

By this time Judas had it in his heart to betray Jesus.

Here is the context, in which Jesus said these words:

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:10-11


Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. 5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:1-11



JLB

 

[MarkT]

John 13 is at the end of Jesus' ministry and life on earth, at the time of the Passover.

By this time Judas had it in his heart to betray Jesus.

Here is the context, in which Jesus said these words:

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:10-11


Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. 5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:1-11



JLB

What difference does it make? I already said the apostles were chosen before they were sent out in Mt. 10, so Judas was a chosen instrument from the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

So Jesus didn't tell them Judas was a devil when he sent them out. So what? We know he was. That's the point everyone seems to ignore. The Bible was written for us so we would know the truth. The gospel tells us Judas was a devil and he was chosen so that the scripture would be fulfilled. John 13:18
I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
Jesus didn't make it known to the apostles who would betray him until the last supper. So everything was revealed at the determined time.

 

[GodsGrace]

What difference does it make? I already said the apostles were chosen before they were sent out in Mt. 10, so Judas was a chosen instrument from the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

So Jesus didn't tell them Judas was a devil when he sent them out. So what? We know he was. That's the point everyone seems to ignore. The Bible was written for us so we would know the truth. The gospel tells us Judas was a devil and he was chosen so that the scripture would be fulfilled. John 13:18
I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
Jesus didn't make it known to the apostles who would betray him until the last supper. So everything was revealed at the determined time.

We know Judas was a devil when the apostles were sent out.
But Jesus didn't.
So Jesus sent a devil out to preach God's word.

Interesting.

 

[MarkT]

We know Judas was a devil when the apostles were sent out.
But Jesus didn't.
So Jesus sent a devil out to preach God's word.

Interesting.

Of course he knew, he chose him. Why would you say he didn't know? Jesus said, "I know whom I have chosen." John 13:18

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course he knew, he chose him. Why would you say he didn't know?

Let's say Jesus was fully omniscious and knew Judas was a "devil" when He chose him.

How do you reason that Jesus, knowing Judas was of the devil, would annoint him to send him out with the other 11 to preach and heal and do miracles?

Whichever of these gifts Judas had, it would not have made sense.
If he was preaching, from whom did he receive the power? The Holy Spirit?

If he was healing, in whose name was he healing? Jesus, satan?
If he was doing miracles, in whose name?

Would this not have been a kingdom divided against itself??

 

[MarkT]

Let's say Jesus was fully omniscious and knew Judas was a "devil" when He chose him.

How do you reason that Jesus, knowing Judas was of the devil, would annoint him to send him out with the other 11 to preach and heal and do miracles?

Whichever of these gifts Judas had, it would not have made sense.
If he was preaching, from whom did he receive the power? The Holy Spirit?

If he was healing, in whose name was he healing? Jesus, satan?
If he was doing miracles, in whose name?

Would this not have been a kingdom divided against itself??

Jesus said, "I know whom I have chosen." If you want to argue with Jesus, go ahead.

 

[MarkT]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
John 15:1-3

Pruning is associated with clean: cleansed.



Prune - Strong's G2508 - kathairō

to cleanse, of filth impurity, etc

1. 
   
   
   • to prune trees and vines from useless shoots
   • metaph. from guilt, to expiate

JLB

Seriously. You have a dictionary - you can look up the words and what they mean. If Strong's is telling you something different, then cast him out.

Jesus said his word made them clean.

And even Paul said it, re. the church
Ephesians 5:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

 

[JLB]

Seriously. You have a dictionary - you can look up the words and what they mean. If Strong's is telling you something different, then cast him out.

Jesus said his word made them clean.

And even Paul said it, re. the church
Ephesians 5:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

The original language of the new testament is Greek, not English.

An English dictionary is going to give you the meaning of an English word, not a Greek word.

The verse in Ephesians 5:26, uses the word Rhema for "word".

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word [Rhema]. Ephesians 5:26

The word in John 15 uses a different word, Logos.

You are already clean because of the word [Logos] which I have spoken to you. John 15:2



JLB

 

[MarkT]

The original language of the new testament is Greek, not English.



An English dictionary is going to give you the meaning of an English word, not a Greek word.



The verse in Ephesians 5:26, uses the word Rhema for "word".



that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word [Rhema]. Ephesians 5:26



The word in John 15 uses a different word, Logos.



You are already clean because of the word [Logos] which I have spoken to you. John 15:2







JLB

Rhema refers to the spoken word, and logos refers to the word. So Eph. refers to the word Jesus spoke, and logos refers to the word itself, but Jesus spoke it. So I guess I agree with the Greek and the English translation. The word Jesus spoke, and the word that was spoken by Jesus. Same thing.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said, "I know whom I have chosen." If you want to argue with Jesus, go ahead.

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18

This scripture that was to be fulfilled is from Psalm 41:9 -

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9


The point she made was that Jesus didn't choose a devil, which is true, and should be considered when studying this topic.

If you study what is spoken here, you'll discover this truth.

Judas became a betrayer; a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Judas went from being a trusted friend, and disciple, to being a betrayer.

He wasn't always a betrayer, but rather toward the end, became a betrayer.

Which means when Jesus chose Judas, he wasn't a betrayer; someone who takes sides with the devil.


JLB

 

[chessman]

so your saying that those who turned back, were the ones who didn't believe along with the twelve?

Are you aware that the A&T rules prohibit posting leaps of assumptions about what other members believe?

"Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own theology or doctrine."​

But no, I believe Jesus said there were some of you [the 12] who do not believe.
And He identified Judas for not believing and for betraying Him.


You didn't answer:

Your turn to answer; Did Jesus say these words that those that turn back from Him and walked with Him no longer?

John 6:64 (NKJV) "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

This scripture that was to be fulfilled is from Psalm 41:9 -

Are you aware that Psalm 41 speaks of exactly the belief that I hold for Judas? That is, Judas was a False friend/disciple? A wolf in sheep's clothing, so-to-speak.

Psalm 41New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Psalmist in Sickness Complains of Enemies and False Friends.
For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1 How blessed is he who considers the helpless;
The Lord will deliver him in a day of trouble.
2 The Lord will protect him and keep him alive,
And he shall be called blessed upon the earth;
And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies.
...
5 My enemies speak evil against me,
“When will he die, and his name perish?”
6 And when he comes to see me, he speaks falsehood;
His heart gathers wickedness to itself;
When he goes outside, he tells it.
7 All who hate me whisper together against me;
Against me they devise my hurt, saying,
8 “A wicked thing is poured out upon him,
That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.”
9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.​

 

[MarkT]

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18

This scripture that was to be fulfilled is from Psalm 41:9 -

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9


The point she made was that Jesus didn't choose a devil, which is true, and should be considered when studying this topic.

False. Judas was a devil. Keep that in mind. Judas was of the evil one, like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother.
1 John 3:12
and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

 

[FreeGrace]

More opinion with no scripture.

Kind of an odd statement, given the OP title of Judas being "saved for a while", which is just an opinion without Scripture. What Scripture that has been given requires a large dose of assumption.

Is there evidence that Judas personally did any of the things Jesus empowered the 12 to do? No. All we know is that Jesus empowered them to do certain things. And I gave a reasonable explanation of why He would give an unbeliever such power.

If the explanation is not reasonable, then just provide a reasonable response that shows why and how it isn't.

Your opinion is not evidence at all, but biased speculation, based on your "pet doctrine" and not the truth from scripture.

The exact same thing can be said of your OP.

Here is the truth from the scriptures:

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8

There isn't anything here about WHO actually did any of these things. It's just an assumption to conclude that Judas did any of them. Even as Jesus was given them the power and command to go, Matthew notes what Judas WAS going to do: betray Jesus.

Interestingly, Matthew even puts the verb in the equivalent of the past tense, which clearly had NOT yet occurred. It's an aorist participle, and translated in my interlinear Greek NT as "the one betraying Him".

So, even back when Jesus appointed His apostles and sent them out, He already knew that Judas would betray Him.