Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said, "I know whom I have chosen." If you want to argue with Jesus, go ahead.

Great response.
Good when you have nothing better to say.

Perhaps YOU are the one arguing with Jesus?
Please explain how Jesus would choose a "devil" to preach, heal and do miracles.
If you can...

Please address my point that this action of Jesus would have been akin to dividing a Kingdom against itself.
Mark 3:24-25
Psalm 133:1 Brothers dwell in unity. At the beginning, the Apostles dwelt in unity among themselves.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Two things to consider:

1. There is no evidence that Judas personally did any of the things the 12 were sent out to do.
2. Even if he did do those things, isn't it possible that Jesus was giving him every opportunity to see the light and power of Jesus? Even though I believe in Jesus' full deity, and that Jesus knew who would betray Him, it's quite reasonable that Jesus was just giving Judas absolutely no excuse for his rejection of the Messiah.

1. Ridiculous.
If you can say that there was no evidence that Judas did any of these things that the Apostles were sent out to do, then we can deduce nothing from scripture except what is specifically written. In which case, I'd have to stop wearing jewelry immediately and you would have to stop drinking beer or any other liquor except for medicinal purposes. You'd also have to stop going to work on Sundays - if you do.

THERE IS NO PROOF HE DIDN'T. So we're right back where we started...

2. NO. This is not possible. He lived with Jesus for over 3 years. He needed nothing further to understand who Jesus was. He understood from the beginning that He was the messiah. He may not have been the Messiah he wanted...If you recall there were two qualities or types of Messiah that could come to save Israel - one was a Messiah who would rule Israel and free her from oppression.
Micah 5:2
Isaiah 9:5-7

The other was a spiritual Messiah. Judas wanted the former and eventually discovered Jesus would not fulfill that role (at that time).

Jesus WOULD NOT send out a "devil" to do God's work.
This seems to me to be an all-important point that cannot be overlooked.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

False. Judas was a devil. Keep that in mind. Judas was of the evil one, like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother.
1 John 3:12
and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Please explain better what Cain has to do with Judas?
Are you saying JESUS chose Cain and then Cain killed his brother?
I don't understand the connection...
Jesus DID NOT choose Cain to do anything.
HE CHOSE JUDAS.

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

Great response.
Good when you have nothing better to say.

Perhaps YOU are the one arguing with Jesus?
Please explain how Jesus would choose a "devil" to preach, heal and do miracles.
If you can...

Please address my point that this action of Jesus would have been akin to dividing a Kingdom against itself.
Mark 3:24-25
Psalm 133:1 Brothers dwell in unity. At the beginning, the Apostles dwelt in unity among themselves.

Wondering

Not if they were sent out in his name.

Jesus sent out twelve disciples, and he gave them authority over unclean spirits and to heal every disease, etc. It's not as if they were sent out alone, neither did they do anything individually. The Bible doesn't tell us Judas did this and that, neither can you attribute anything they did to any one of them. They were twelve. You may have read where Jesus said, where two or more are gathered in my name, I will be in the midst of them, and if two agree on earth about anything, it will be done for them. Mt. 18:20

Twelve were chosen, and one of the twelve was a devil. That’s the truth.

 

[MarkT]

I already explained about the necessity of choosing a murderer at heart to betray Jesus to the enemy, if scripture must be fulfilled.

 

[abide]

Belief is one part of the equation. Repentance is the other part. Jesus stated if you love Him you will obey Him then He and His Father would make their home with such a person. Those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth love other things more than they love God.

I would think many do believe but are busy with other things and love other things more than they love God and His ways.

Judas clearly loved money and material things more then Jesus. He was tempted by his own evil desires.

Judas clearly loved money and material things more then Jesus.:amen

 

[MarkT]

“I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ John 13:18

This scripture that was to be fulfilled is from Psalm 41:9 -

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9


The point she made was that Jesus didn't choose a devil, which is true, and should be considered when studying this topic.

If you study what is spoken here, you'll discover this truth.

Judas became a betrayer; a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Judas went from being a trusted friend, and disciple, to being a betrayer.

He wasn't always a betrayer, but rather toward the end, became a betrayer.

Which means when Jesus chose Judas, he wasn't a betrayer; someone who takes sides with the devil.


JLB

Judas became a betrayer when he betrayed Jesus. But the truth is Judas was a devil all along and he was chosen to betray the Lord.

John 13:18
I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

 

[JLB]

False. Judas was a devil. Keep that in mind. Judas was of the evil one, like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother.
1 John 3:12
and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

What's false?

The scripture that says... Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9

which was quoted from John 13:18

Why would you say that's false?

Judas was tempted, and fell by transgression, but before that, he was a disciple of Jesus Christ, and Apostle, as well as a trusted friend, whom Jesus chose.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

What's false?

The scripture that says... Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9

which was quoted from John 13:18

Why would you say that's false?

Judas was tempted, and fell by transgression, but before that, he was a disciple of Jesus Christ, and Apostle, as well as a trusted friend, whom Jesus chose.



JLB

Read my post.

 

[JLB]

Judas became a betrayer when he betrayed Jesus. But the truth is Judas was a devil all along and he was chosen to betray the Lord.

Define what you mean by devil.


A.] Do you mean a wicked spirit?
or
B.] Do you mean a man that sides with the cause of the devil?


Judas was a disciple, apostle and trusted friend of the Lord, before, he ended up betraying Jesus.

The scripture says he... became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

• Judas was a trusted friend, then he became a betrayer.

Trust doesn't happen over night, but must be earned over time.

That is what the scriptures teach.

The scripture that says... Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9

which was quoted from John 13:18

and again

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8


Judas was called one of "His disciples".
Judas was called one of "His apostles".
Judas was called one of "His trusted friends".

all before he betrayed Jesus Christ.

It wasn't until the end, after Judas was a disciple, apostle and trusted friend, that he betrayed the Lord.


These are the biblical facts of scripture.

Just like there will be those who will betray other Christians while under persecution during the tribulation, which is also betraying the Lord Himself.

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:4-14


Just like there will be those who are Christians that will take the mark of the beast, in which they turn from serving and worshiping the Lord, to serving and worshiping the antichrist.


JLB

 

[chessman]

John 13 is at the end of Jesus' ministry and life on earth, at the time of the Passover.

By this time Judas had it in his heart to betray Jesus.

So, in your opinion, did Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves the Son at this time, the time of the foot washing? Or had Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loves the Son before this time?

Judas fell from his place with Christ and the apostles because of transgression.

At what point in time, which transgression?

 

[JLB]

So, in your opinion, did Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves the Son at this time, the time of the foot washing? Or had Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loves the Son before this time?

You will have to provide the scriptures you are referring to, otherwise it's just your opinion vs mine.

At what point in time, which transgression?

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

and,

‘Let another take his office.’

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:16-26


The context refers to when he became a guide for those who arrested Jesus [betrayal] for money [30 pieces of Silver].

That would be the transgression, by which he fell, according to the context.



JLB

 

[chessman]

You said:

Judas fell from his place with Christ and the apostles because of transgression.

So I asked you which transgression caused Judas to fall from his place with Christ:

At what point in time, which transgression?

You answered:

The context refers to when he became a guide for those who arrested Jesus [betrayal] for money [30 pieces of Silver].

He guided the officers that arreseted Jesus Christ in John 18:

John 18:1-3 (LEB) When Jesus had said these things, he went out with his disciples to the other side of the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden into which he and his disciples entered. Now Judas, the one who betrayed him, also knew about the place, because Jesus often gathered there with his disciples. So Judas, taking the cohort and officers from the chief priests and from the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. ...​

So, is it your opinion (from your studying all Scripture and claiming that Judas was "saved for a while" from them) that Jesus still loved Judas as the Father loves Jesus on this night in the Garden? Or had Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loves the Son before that night?

You will have to provide the scriptures you are referring to, otherwise it's just your opinion vs mine.

I am referring to all Scripture. Out of all the Scripture that you know of, where exactly do you think that Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loves the Son?

Since you said Jesus did (at the John 15 point in time, see quote below) love Judas as the Father loves the Son, when did Jesus stop loving Judas as the Father loved the Son? Simple question really.

Based on this scripture, I would say yes.

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you;...
John 15:9

 

[chessman]

• Judas was a trusted friend, then he became a betrayer.

Trust doesn't happen over night, but must be earned over time.

That is what the scriptures teach.

The scripture that says... Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9

which was quoted from John 13:18

Psalm 41 is a Psalm about false friends who give lip service and appear as freinds but are really enemies in their hearts.

Psalm 41Amplified Bible (AMP)
The Psalmist in Sickness Complains of Enemies and False Friends.

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

5 My enemies speak evil of me, saying,
“When will he die and his name perish?”
6 And when one comes to see me, he speaks empty words,
While his heart gathers malicious gossip [against me]; When he goes away, he tells it [everywhere].
7 All who hate me whisper together about me; Against me they devise my hurt [imagining the worst for me], saying,
8 “A wicked thing is poured out upon him and holds him; And when he lies down, he will not rise up again.”

John 6:70-71 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:18-19, 21 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”
​

 

[MarkT]

Define what you mean by devil.


A.] Do you mean a wicked spirit?
or
B.] Do you mean a man that sides with the cause of the devil?

Neither one. A devil is by definition a weed, a creature, such as man, made to contain the Devil and his angels, who is made by the Maker for the Maker's purpose, to do the Devil's will, and then be destroyed.

Judas was a disciple, apostle and trusted friend of the Lord, before, he ended up betraying Jesus.

The scripture says he... became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Judas was hired to be a guide. That's how he became a guide. Judas was one of the twelve. He was entrusted with the money box and Jesus called him friend.

 

[atpollard]

Neither one. A devil is by definition a weed, a creature, such as man, made to contain the Devil and his angels, who is made by the Maker for the Maker's purpose, to do the Devil's will, and then be destroyed.

This is fascinating, can you support it with some sort of reference (Scripture or non-scripture)?
(I'd like to look further into this.)

 

[Jim Parker]

Judas was a devil.

Note Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas..."
Judas was a human being, not a devil, which is an angelic being.

 

[JLB]

I already explained about the necessity of choosing a murderer at heart to betray Jesus to the enemy, if scripture must be fulfilled.

Your explanation was based on your opinion, which was refuted with the scriptures I posted.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Your explanation was based on your opinion, which was refuted with the scriptures I posted.
JLB

Your alleged refutation was based on your faulty opinion and miserably deficient misreading of scripture.
TAG! You're it!

 

[JLB]

Psalm 41 is a Psalm about false friends who give lip service and appear as freinds but are really enemies in their hearts.

Psalm 41Amplified Bible (AMP)
The Psalmist in Sickness Complains of Enemies and False Friends.
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

5 My enemies speak evil of me, saying,
“When will he die and his name perish?”
6 And when one comes to see me, he speaks empty words,
While his heart gathers malicious gossip [against me]; When he goes away, he tells it [everywhere].
7 All who hate me whisper together about me; Against me they devise my hurt [imagining the worst for me], saying,
8 “A wicked thing is poured out upon him and holds him; And when he lies down, he will not rise up again.”

So your definition of a trusted friend, is a false friend?

You stopped short of the verse that the New Testament quoted.

9 Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9


The trusted friend became a betrayer: an enemy.


JLB