Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

Where in the gospel does it say Jesus said,

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.
• This was spoken to Judas Iscariot, before he betrayed Jesus.
• Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make during his life?

(edited by staff)

 

[MarkT]

Hi Mark, sorry to break into your conversation with Jim Parker.
This is an important concept to understand and it's difficult for me to believe that you don't. Maybe you're trying to make a point that is not coming through?

God is THE FATHER. He is the first person of the Trinity. He is the Creator.
God is OUR Father because we're believers and as such have some of His attributes.

We are CHildren of God because we have HIS attributes.

If a person has the attributes of satan, we can say that they are children of Satan.
Why? Because a person learns to behave and believe as their parent teaches them.

Jesus did not mean this in a literal sense of course. Only in a spiritual sense as regards our actions, our beliefs, and WHO we are following.

Wondering

Jesus did not say they were acting as if the devil was their father. He said the devil was their father. That's the difference. Of course he was not saying the devil was their biological father. That goes without saying. However it is literally true that the devil was their father. They were born liars, born to be caught as Peter said, 2 Peter 2:12, there will be false teachers also. But re. the Pharisees and the scribes, Jesus called them blind guides leading the blind, whitewashed tombs, Mt. 23:27 serpents and a brood of vipers.

They were of their fathers who killed the prophets who were sent by God. "Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:31-33 RSV Same spirit, different times. The scribes and the Pharisees were not of God, not sent by God, as the prophets were sent. They were not his children as they thought they were. They were of the devil, his seed (spiritual). Of course they had his nature. John 8:44

Re. Judas, Jesus said Judas was a devil when Jesus chose him John 6:70 and Jesus said he would wish he was never born. Mt. 26:24

 

[Jim Parker]

I mean literally true. The literal truth, according to the word that Jesus spoke, is that they were not Abraham's children.

"They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. John 8:38-40

They were of their father, the devil. John 8:44

The Jews presumed to have Abraham as their father, but Jesus told them God can raise up children to Abraham from stones, so being descendants after the flesh (biological) didn't make them Abraham's children.
Matthew 3:9
and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

So I wasn't asking you who their biological parents were. I asked you who was their father, literally, according to the word? If you say the word 'father' is a metaphor, then you are saying the word Jesus spoke is not literally true.

Since the devil is not a corporeal being, he cannot beget human children.
Therefore, the devil cannot literally be their biological father.
He can be their father in a metaphorical sense in that they imitate him as a child might imitate his biological father.
So the words Jesus spoke could not mean that the devil has sexual intercourse with their mothers and begat them.
But, the devil could, with their consent, "beget them" metaphorically to be like him. They could be "begotten of the devil" in a sense similar to how believers can become sons of God.
So the words that Jesus spoke were not "literally" true but they were absolutely true.

iakov the fool

 

[MarkT]

Since the devil is not a corporeal being, he cannot beget human children.
Therefore, the devil cannot literally be their biological father.
He can be their father in a metaphorical sense in that they imitate him as a child might imitate his biological father.
So the words Jesus spoke could not mean that the devil has sexual intercourse with their mothers and begat them.
But, the devil could, with their consent, "beget them" metaphorically to be like him. They could be "begotten of the devil" in a sense similar to how believers can become sons of God.
So the words that Jesus spoke were not "literally" true but they were absolutely true.

iakov the fool

That's not to say humans can not be devils. You're forgetting the soul.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's not to say humans can not be devils. You're forgetting the soul.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

My soul is the soul of a human being.
The verse you quoted does not suggest that a human being can have a soul which is actually an angelic being of the devil variety.
(If that is what you are suggesting. Your statement is unclear.)

 

[WIP]

One last time and then I am done with this debate. We are SAVED through the cross of Christ. Jesus had not gone to the cross yet, so Judas didn't have a chance to be saved. We can't even discuss this, because the grace hadn't been given yet. Mercy had been given to people, but not grace.

This is grace and how we are SAVED.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


"Being" is an action currently getting accomplished in the world. People are being saved with the gospel of the cross, death and resurrection.

Ephesians 2:5-6 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.


This is mercy before the cross and mercy if you have not heard the gospel yet.

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

I have a question. Are you saying that everyone that lived and died prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ had or have no hope of salvation?

 

[MarkT]

My soul is the soul of a human being.
The verse you quoted does not suggest that a human being can have a soul which is actually an angelic being of the devil variety.
(If that is what you are suggesting. Your statement is unclear.)

Could be. A man could be a fallen angel. ie.a devil

AlI I know is Judas was a devil, and Jesus was not speaking metaphorically.

I'm not saying he wasn't human. On the contrary. He was human. He had a soul.

 

[JLB]

Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.

 

[JLB]

I didn't believe either until I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one can.

That's just the opposite of what the bible teaches.


First you believe, then you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:12-17

Was there any evidence, when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit?

JLB

 

[JLB]

One last time and then I am done with this debate. We are SAVED through the cross of Christ. Jesus had not gone to the cross yet, so Judas didn't have a chance to be saved.

Are you saying the people who believed the Gospel that Jesus preached, and were Baptized by Jesus [by His disciples] were not saved?



JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

Hi DanITLD
I agree that many are saved on their death bed before being called home.
However, I would like to add the following to this...

First of all, God cannot be mocked. We can't fool Him. Our calling out to him must be sincere.
In other words, a person can't do whatever he wants all his life and not have God be apart of his life with the plan that he'll call on God at the last moment.

First of all, one does not know when death will come. It's not always by appointment! Sometimes a person dies suddenly and there is no time for repentance.

It also may not work because God knows this was the person's plan all along. We cannot make a fool of God.

If the person is sincere it will work. Only God knows this and this is why I never judge a person's soul.
We can only speak in general terms. Jesus Himself spoke about Judas so I have no problem with this thread.

We can, however, from certain signs think a person might not be saved and try to introduce them to God.
This requires much caution since we cannot see their heart.

There would be more to say regarding a person's tendency toward salvation after a lifetime far from God,
However let's stay on the positive side!

Wondering

Absolutely

 

[chessman]

I didn't believe either until I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one can.

Acts 15:8 (LEB) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us.

God testifies to us via the Holy Spirit.

That's just the opposite of what the bible teaches.

Here, let me help you out:

Acts 8:12 (NKJV) But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. ​

Pop quiz: When were these men and women baptized?

A. When they believed as he preached
B. After they believed.
C. Before they believed.
D. Never.

My Answer = A
Luke's Answer = A

First you believe, then you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Your answer = B

For bonus points, select the best answer:
What did Philip preach post resurrection of Jesus?

A. the things concerning the kingdom of God
B. the name of Jesus Christ
C. Both A and B
D. None of the above.

Answer = C

What did Philip and the other disciples preach prior to the resurrection? Answer = A

Matthew 10:7 (NKJV) And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ ​

 

[chessman]

Was there any evidence, when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Yes. There was the testimony made to me by the Holy Spirit that I could believe upon the name of Jesus Christ and receive the kingdom of Heaven/God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ​

Since I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, I've been able to say "Jesus is Lord", and mean it.

 

[JLB]

Yes. There was the testimony made to me by the Holy Spirit that I could believe upon the name of Jesus Christ and receive the kingdom of Heaven/God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ​

Since I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, I've been able to say "Jesus is Lord", and mean it.

I see, so "speaking by the Spirit of God" means we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit?

So Judas Iscariot was baptized in the Holy Spirit, according to your definition.

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Matthew 10:16-20


Judas Iscariot was sent out as a sheep, among wolves to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God to the lost, as he was of the household of God.

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
Matthew 10:24-26




JLB

 

[JLB]

God testifies to us via the Holy Spirit.



Here, let me help you out:

Acts 8:12 (NKJV) But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. ​

Pop quiz: When were these men and women baptized?

A. When they believed as he preached
B. After they believed.
C. Before they believed.
D. Never.

My Answer = A
Luke's Answer = A



Your answer = B

For bonus points, select the best answer:
What did Philip preach post resurrection of Jesus?

A. the things concerning the kingdom of God
B. the name of Jesus Christ
C. Both A and B
D. None of the above.

Answer = C

What did Philip and the other disciples preach prior to the resurrection? Answer = A

Matthew 10:7 (NKJV) And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ ​

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the Apostles hands, after they had believed, and were baptized.

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

The Sorcerer’s Sin
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8:12-19

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was given after Samaria had received the word [Gospel Message] of God, in which they believed and were Baptized.

• We see the practice of Philip concerning baptizing a person, as he conditions it by making sure they believe first.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Acts 8:35-37



JLB

 

[chessman]

I see, so "speaking by the Spirit of God" means we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I didn't say speaking by the Spirit of God means we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Here's what I said:

Since I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, I've been able to say "Jesus is Lord", and mean it.

Here, I'll highlight it red for you:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Can someone say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No?

I say yes.
What say you?

So Judas Iscariot was baptized in the Holy Spirit, according to your definition.

Nope. Judas missed out on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, remember.

 

[JLB]

Since I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, I've been able to say "Jesus is Lord", and mean it.

By putting "Jesus is Lord", in italics, you are referring to another quote from the scriptures, that directly refers to "speaking by the Spirit", and you are attempting to "link together" "speaking by the Spirit", with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Since I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, I've been able to say "Jesus is Lord", and mean it.

Ok, we will do it the long way.

What scripture tells us about being able to say "Jesus is Lord"?

Do you have a have scripture, that teaches this?

Here I will quote it for you.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3


Speaking by the Spirit, does not mean we have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit, otherwise Judas Iscariot was baptized in the Holy Spirit, and we know that came at Pentecost, with the evidence that can be seen and heard.

Remember?

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

The evidence that was seen and heard of the Day of Pentecost, was: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4


Again, my question to you is: Was there any evidence, when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit?


We certainly know that speaking by the Spirit, that Jesus is Lord, is not the evidence the scripture refers to.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.

Where in the gospel does it say Judas could have reigned with Jesus? The saying you quoted says, 'you who have followed me will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel'. What you're saying is not in the gospel. Considering Jesus chose Judas to betray him, what makes you think Judas could have reigned with Jesus? And considering it was God's will that his Son should die and God directed Judas' step, 'A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.' Pr. 16:9 and Jesus said to Judas, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” John 13:27, how can you say Judas could have reigned with Jesus?

You know Matthias was chosen to take Judas' office. He was chosen to fulfill the very prediction Jesus made that you quote. ie. twelve will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

It's amazing how this freewill gospel distorts the truth.

 

[JLB]

Where in the gospel does it say Judas could have reigned with Jesus? The saying you quoted says, 'you who have followed me will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel'.

Yes, thank you for acknowledging what the scripture says.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's amazing how this freewill gospel distorts the truth.

What is freewill gospel?