Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[chessman]

What of this scripture?
Joh 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22 and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;

This eve when Jesus said to the disciples; "Receive the Holy Spirit" and "I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” occurs after Judas had betrayed Jesus in fulfillment of other written Scripture. Judas wasn't with the disciples (nor was Thomas) on the eve of resurrection Sunday. Even though the Text refers to them collectively as "the disciples". So Judas didn't hear Jesus say this. And more to the point, Jesus never promised the Holy Spirit to Judas.

Also, this verse doesn't say they 'received' (past tense) the Holy Spirit on that eve. It was spoken of by Jesus in the Aorist verb tense (unspecified with respect to time). It was spoken of that eve as a spoken promise, yet it literally occurs 40 days later. Just as sure as Jesus' future second coming will occur at an unspecified time and His past fulfillment of all that Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms spoke of about Him, they (minus Judas) were clothed with the power of the Holy Spirit. Something they needed (we all do) to be "saved". The Greek aorist tense is unspecified as to when, exactly, the action/process occurs. But because Jesus said it, it's true. (so is John 3:16 truth)

Notice how the English translations try to make the original Greek verb tenses clearer by adding adjectives to describe the tenses better where appropriate. But in the Greek, all their verb tenses are as clear to the Greek readers as past/present/future verb tenses are to us in English. English doesn't use all the tenses Greek does, however. Thus, some of their verb tenses are not as clear to us as ours are to us.

John 20:19-21 (LEB) Now when it was evening on that day—the first day of the week—and the doors had been shut where the disciples were because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace to you.” And when he had said this, he showed his hands and his side to them. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you.”​

Notice the tenses in the preceding verse; Jesus said (aorist in Greek, past in English) to them again, “Peace to you. As the Father has sent (perfect in Greek, past in English) me, I also send (present in Greek, present in English) you.

But notice "Jesus said" is in aorist tense even though it's translated as past into Eglish. That's because the process (action) is literally undefined with respect to time in the Greek but we do not have that option in English. So is "receive the Holy Spirit" unspecified with respect to time in the Greek. But we perceive it as either past/present/future tense in English. As our only option, so to speak. If we read the context and Luke's other accounts of this eve, we see this passage is all about Scripture's (The Word of God) fulfillment. [which is why I'm OSAS, BTW]

Luke 24:36-37, 40-41, 44-49 (LEB) And while they were saying these things, he himself stood there among them. But they were startled and became terrified, and thought they had seen a ghost. And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they were still disbelieving because of joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Do you have anything to eat here?” And he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything that is written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
​

And Luke records the Holy Spirit being promised one more time (prior to the ascension) and then it literally happening later (in time) at Pentecost (after Judas is replaced);

Acts 1:8 (LEB) But you will receive (future tense) power when the Holy Spirit has come (aroist) upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest part of the earth.” ​

Acts 2:1-4 (LEB) And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out.​

It was written that Judas (a false friend, see Psalm 41) would betray Jesus. Thus it occurred centuries later. It is written somewhere (I forget) that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

[been missing your participation in A&T. You okay?]

 

[JLB]

Your positions can't even get all the parties on the table for viewing. Your positions eliminate both God and Satan from the equations and sees only Judas. I can't imagine a more BLINDED to the obvious set of positions as those you propose.

Of course my position does not remove God or Satan from the equation, that is just nonsense.

It was God in Christ who was being betrayed.

It was Satan trying to stop the ministry of Jesus through one of His disciples, whom he could corrupt.

It was Judas who became more greedy as what he took from the money bag, just was enough to satisfy his growing desire for money, as well as avoiding the coming persecution from the Jewish leadership.


Your view seems to leave out Judas himself, as well as the Chief Priest's.


14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
Matthew 26:14-16

It was Judas who was drawn away by his own desires, which lead him to make the choice to go to the Chief Priest's to betray Jesus for money.

The scripture shows us Judas asked them if they were willing to give him some money to betray Jesus.


So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. Matthew 26:16

It also shows that he had to seek [meditate or reason] an opportunity, to devise a plan in which was best suited to accomplish his goal, showing he accessed the creative part of his brain, to devise such a plan, not having a predetermined course from a divine or satanic origin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Of course my position does not remove God or Satan from the equation, that is just nonsense.

Of course it does. In the freewill equations Judas acted solely of his own accord. Neither God, His Christ or Satan had any actions whatsoever WITH Judas in anything.

The betrayal was all on Judas, alone.

It was God in Christ who was being betrayed.

God Precisely Wanted it done. Acts 4:26-28.

It was Satan trying to stop the ministry of Jesus through one of His disciples, whom he could corrupt.

Well congratulations. Who exactly is the corrupt one in the above example anyway? Obviously this was not a matter of ONLY JUDAS, which is the point.

And we might observe that IF Gods Word had not inserted Himself into the equations, NO resistance would have been aroused to begin with. Mark 4:15.

All the surface analysis nonsense about "only Judas" is a freewill fallacy. Satan was involved with Judas and SO WAS GODS WILL, also involved with Judas.

To see only Judas is the sight of the blind.

It was Judas who became more greedy as what he took from the money bag, just was enough to satisfy his growing desire for money, as well as avoiding the coming persecution from the Jewish leadership.

And that again is just you seeing only Judas. I can't imagine a blinder to the obvious positional sight than that repeated mantra of only Judas. It's NOT only Judas involved.

Your view seems to leave out Judas himself, as well as the Chief Priest's.

Satan and God were involved in ALL the events, as noted prior. Trying to isolate either of them out of the pictures will never work and never compute. And that is what your positions always try to do.

The "resistance" of Satan DOES come, according to Jesus' Words, wherever the Word is sown. Mark 4:15 is the fact and shows the fact. As do scriptures regarding Satan and Judas and Satan and Peter for examples. Luke 22:3, Matt. 16:23.

That puts THREE parties in play in every matter of the scriptures. Gods Word, man and Satan. Anyone who tries to play it otherwise isn't taking a close account whatsoever, but a voided and blinded account of ALL the parties.

It was Judas who was drawn away by his own desires, which lead him to make the choice to go to the Chief Priest's to betray Jesus for money. The scripture shows us Judas asked them if they were willing to give him some money to betray Jesus.

So says only your positions trying to play the Judas only fiddle. That fiddle doesn't play a truthful scriptural tune and never will.

 

[WIP]

Let's back off with the personal stabs. We can disagree and still remain respectful to each other.

 

[JLB]

Of course it does. In the freewill equations Judas acted solely of his own accord. Neither God, His Christ or Satan had any actions whatsoever WITH Judas in anything.

Misrepresenting what I posted is only showing how weak your position is, and exposes your motive as being from a source other than the truth that is found in the scriptures.

I won't be talking in circles with on this thread.

If you have something that pertains to the OP, then please share.

If you are wanting to just spout on about your "Satan is in our flesh" heresy, then save it for your own thread.


Here is what I said again:


It was God in Christ who was being betrayed.

It was Satan trying to stop the ministry of Jesus through one of His disciples, whom he could corrupt.

It was Judas who became more greedy as what he took from the money bag, just was enough to satisfy his growing desire for money, as well as avoiding the coming persecution from the Jewish leadership.


Your view seems to leave out Judas himself, as well as the Chief Priest's.


14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
Matthew 26:14-16

It was Judas who was drawn away by his own desires, which lead him to make the choice to go to the Chief Priest's to betray Jesus for money.

The scripture shows us Judas asked them if they were willing to give him some money to betray Jesus.


So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. Matthew 26:16

It also shows that he had to seek [meditate or reason] an opportunity, to devise a plan in which was best suited to accomplish his goal, showing he accessed the creative part of his brain, to devise such a plan, not having a predetermined course from a divine or satanic origin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

To see only Judas is the sight of the blind.

It was God in Christ who was being betrayed.

It was Satan trying to stop the ministry of Jesus through one of His disciples, whom he could corrupt.

It was Judas who became more greedy as what he took from the money bag, just was enough to satisfy his growing desire for money, as well as avoiding the coming persecution from the Jewish leadership.


Your view seems to leave out Judas himself, as well as the Chief Priest's.


14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
Matthew 26:14-16

It was Judas who was drawn away by his own desires, which lead him to make the choice to go to the Chief Priest's to betray Jesus for money.

The scripture shows us Judas asked them if they were willing to give him some money to betray Jesus.


So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. Matthew 26:16

It also shows that he had to seek [meditate or reason] an opportunity, to devise a plan in which was best suited to accomplish his goal, showing he accessed the creative part of his brain, to devise such a plan, not having a predetermined course from a divine or satanic origin.


JLB

 

[abide]

I later explained (much later) why what Judas believed was scary...I also explained by what the evidence presented showed what Judas believed.

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.

It's not hard or difficult to understand...But the ramifications of what I showed are very scary.

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.
James 2.19
Thou believest that there is one God the, thou doest well, the devil also believe and tremble.

That instance of faith which the apostle here chooses to mention is the first principle of all religion. "Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine.’’ The word tremble is commonly looked upon as denoting a good effect of faith; but here it may rather be taken as a bad effect, when applied to the faith of devils. They tremble, not out of reverence, but hatred and opposition to that one God on whom they believe. To rehearse that article of our creed, therefore, I believe in God the Father Almighty, will not distinguish us from devils at last, unless we now give up ourselves to God as the gospel directs, and love him, and delight ourselves in him, and serve him, which the devils do not, cannot do.5. We are taught that he who boasts of faith without works is to be looked upon at present as a foolish condemned person. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Matthew Henry's commentary of James 2.19

 

[JLB]

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.
James 2.19
Thou believest that there is one God the, thou doest well, the devil also believe and tremble.

That instance of faith which the apostle here chooses to mention is the first principle of all religion. "Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine.’’ The word tremble is commonly looked upon as denoting a good effect of faith; but here it may rather be taken as a bad effect, when applied to the faith of devils. They tremble, not out of reverence, but hatred and opposition to that one God on whom they believe. To rehearse that article of our creed, therefore, I believe in God the Father Almighty, will not distinguish us from devils at last, unless we now give up ourselves to God as the gospel directs, and love him, and delight ourselves in him, and serve him, which the devils do not, cannot do.5. We are taught that he who boasts of faith without works is to be looked upon at present as a foolish condemned person. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Matthew Henry's commentary of James 2.19

Yes Judas believed, and proved he believed by obeying the word of faith, which is the action of faith that makes faith living and active;
ie - able to produce a divine result.

Judas obeyed the word of faith from Jesus Christ when called to follow Him, and learn from Him, for 3 1/2 years, and then through this obedience he was promoted to Apostle and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, manifesting the signs of a believer.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;...
Mark 16:17


Like John said, Judas was a hard core believer... for a while, then fell away, leaving for us an example of those who would follow in his footsteps, and end going to the place he went.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.
James 2.19
Thou believest that there is one God the, thou doest well, the devil also believe and tremble.

That instance of faith which the apostle here chooses to mention is the first principle of all religion. "Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine.’’ The word tremble is commonly looked upon as denoting a good effect of faith; but here it may rather be taken as a bad effect, when applied to the faith of devils. They tremble, not out of reverence, but hatred and opposition to that one God on whom they believe. To rehearse that article of our creed, therefore, I believe in God the Father Almighty, will not distinguish us from devils at last, unless we now give up ourselves to God as the gospel directs, and love him, and delight ourselves in him, and serve him, which the devils do not, cannot do.5. We are taught that he who boasts of faith without works is to be looked upon at present as a foolish condemned person. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Matthew Henry's commentary of James 2.19

JTLYK
Bold print in red is like you're screaming at us.

 

[abide]

JTLYK
Bold print in red is like you're screaming at us.

JTLYK
Bold print in red is like you're screaming at us.

No offence meant, the red was to highlight the statement.

 

[JohnDB]

No offence meant, the red was to highlight the statement.

It also was an almost direct quote of a portion of one of my other posts.

 

[MarkT]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.

But then Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.

Yes, thank you for acknowledging what the scripture says.


JLB

Where do you see the words 'could have', and where do you get the idea Judas could have? There's no 'could have' in Jesus' statement.

Jesus told his disciples they will sit on 12 thrones, not maybe they will. And he said, 'one of you will betray me', not maybe one of you will betray me. You know Matthias was elected to take Judas' office, - 'and they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias.' Acts 1:26 This was done so that there would be twelve to sit on twelve thrones as Jesus said.

Judas did betray Jesus. Jesus did die on the cross. To say, 'Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord' is illogical. If Judas had continued, there would be no thrones. No betrayal. No crucifixion. No resurrection.

The scripture that says, ‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;

and

‘His office let another take.’ Acts 1:20 RSV

would have been unfulfilled if Judas had continued. There wouldn't have been any reason to elect Matthias to take his office.

 

[smaller]

It was God in Christ who was being betrayed.

The heart of the question IS, was it the Will of God for Jesus to be betrayed and crucified?

1 Cor. 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

John 13:
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

You see Mr. JLB, it is GOD who calls the shots. Not Judas, not man.

It was Satan trying to stop the ministry of Jesus through one of His disciples, whom he could corrupt.

It is God who calls the shots. It is God who says that where the Word is sown, Satan MUST steal same from the heart. That is GODS CALL on what will happen, not Satan's. God has commanded that to transpire. Mark 4:15

It was Judas who became more greedy as what he took from the money bag, just was enough to satisfy his growing desire for money, as well as avoiding the coming persecution from the Jewish leadership.

We can look at Judas all the day long, but until we understand that it is God who called the shots it's rather pointless. We can look at any of us and find the same sins of Judas in our own flesh. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15.

Judas was a sinner. Is that some kind of new surprise or new revelation? Nope! Take a look at any of us and scripture reveals likewise.

It was Judas who was drawn away by his own desires, which lead him to make the choice to go to the Chief Priest's to betray Jesus for money.

The observation of facts remains. It was Gods Own Will that Jesus would be betrayed and crucified. Remember, Jesus Himself CHOSE to be betrayed and chose who would betray Him. Jesus told every one of the 12 many times that He was going to be not only betrayed, but killed. It was Jesus who called that fact out, NOT JUDAS.

Jesus even KNEW when this betrayal had transpired, when in the garden, praying:

Mark 14:41
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

The scripture shows us Judas asked them if they were willing to give him some money to betray Jesus.

There are certainly correlations to the O.T. available to be seen in the "money actions" as well. Think Potter's house.

So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. Matthew 26:16

It also shows that he had to seek [meditate or reason] an opportunity, to devise a plan in which was best suited to accomplish his goal, showing he accessed the creative part of his brain, to devise such a plan, not having a predetermined course from a divine or satanic origin.

That's again only you making Judas the fulcrum of betrayal and not Gods Own Will.

It was Gods Own Will that His Own Son be betrayed and crucified. The betrayal and crucifixion was not "caused" by Judas apart from GODS OWN WORKING WILL in actions.

And there are lessons, spiritual, to be learned by "betrayal" that are for believers also:

Luke 21:16
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Hmmm? Did Jesus call that shot too? It certainly appears to be so to me.

 

[smaller]

Misrepresenting what I posted is only showing how weak your position is, and exposes your motive as being from a source other than the truth that is found in the scriptures.

Nah, I just point out to any positional analysis that is completely devoid of Gods Own Will in the events of betrayal and crucifixion that the events really were the Will of God, in action, and not just the players in the drama in and of themselves. Acts 4:26-28.

So your questioning my motives really should be directed instead to the facts that we have, in writing, rather than your imaginations. Acts 4:26-28.

Anybody who wants to rail on Judas need only ask themselves a couple simple questions. Was it Gods Own Will for Jesus to be betrayed and crucified? I would think any believer can answer this question in the affirmative, that yes, it was in fact GODS OWN WILL to have His Own Son betrayed and crucified.

Now, go shine the light of that fact on Judas and figure out that it was what?

Oh, yeah, Gods Own Will to betray and crucify His Own Son.

Now, is anyone going to rail and whine about God doing this? Such whiners about Judas can just as well cut to the chase and whine about God Himself.

I won't be talking in circles with on this thread.

Your positions do everything they can to avoid the obvious, above.

 

[JLB]

But then Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.

How so?

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
Acts 1:16

You mean the Pharisee's would have no other recourse in which to murder Jesus Christ, if Judas didn't guide them to where Jesus was?

Nonsense.

God foresaw what would happen, and the choice Judas made to betray Jesus, and by His foreknowledge wrote about it in the Old Testament.

God did not make Judas betray Jesus.
God foresaw the choice Judas made.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Nah, I just point out to any positional analysis that is completely devoid of Gods Own Will in the events of betrayal and crucifixion that the events really were the Will of God, in action, and not just the players in the drama in and of themselves. Acts 4:26-28.

Please copy and paste the post that is completely void of God's will here for us to refer to, with the post number, so we can all examine which post you are referring, that is completely void of God's will.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's again only you making Judas the fulcrum of betrayal and not Gods Own Will.

Please explain how Judas choosing to betray Jesus, of his own freewill, and God foreseeing it from the beginning and allowing it to take place, is somehow devoid of God's will?


Do you believe God forced Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or do you believe they made the choice to eat of the tree, being enticed by the evil one?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Please explain how Judas choosing to betray Jesus, of his own freewill, and God foreseeing it from the beginning and allowing it to take place, is somehow devoid of God's will?

Ours is a simple difference in observations.

Your sight: God only foresaw Judas' betrayal but God DID NOT PLAN it to happen.

Mine: God planned Jesus to be betrayed and crucified, even choosing Judas to betray, knowing well in advance that this choice would result in betrayal. God CHOSE to be betrayed and HENCE CAUSED it by His Choice!

Simple difference. One, my sight, is that God IS in Charge.

Your sight, that the crucifixion was in fact an accident of freewill beyond control of God.

Your sight won't hold water for me JLB. Ever.

Matt. 16:
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Jesus Himself taught His diciples this SAME LESSON, after His Own Resurrection, so I'd consider it a rather important lesson:

Luke 24:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The events of Jesus were NOT some random accident of the "freewill of Judas" as your position proposes. No, not whatsoever.

God in Christ PLANNED to lay down His Own Life in Precise and Predetermined Fashions that GOD HIMSELF controlled.

None of it was left to "the chance" of some dupe named Judas.

Do you believe God forced Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or do you believe they made the choice to eat of the tree, being enticed by the evil one?

I think ALL of your questions are so void of the other parties that such questions are defeated on the surface.

Do you think God didn't plan creation and everything that transpires therein? I do think God did know and plan everything, even Perfectly, in ADVANCE. Rev. 4:11

Your position is nothing but a gambling game of chance. God made things, rolled the dice and hoped things might work out. I think such postures are nonsense.

Yes, God IS in control of "all things" whether we like it or not. Your positions are Godless and on the face of them your positions REMOVE GOD from actions in His Own creation.

Yes, Godless are your positional claims. And every question your positions pose are likewise to the intents of REMOVING GOD from those questions, such as shown here:

"Do you believe God forced-"

There wouldn't even be a question to be asked unless GOD FORCED creation to exist.

So, yes, God IS Completely IN FORCE in all things and not some neutered powerless out of control of everything in control of nothing pointless powerless God, as your positions propose.

I'd consider freewill postures as nearly atheist myself. I mean seriously what difference is there? In both cases God isn't involved a'tall. It's ALL ON MAN.

 

[JLB]

Your sight: God only foresaw Judas' betrayal but God DID NOT PLAN it to happen.

FALSE !

Another misrepresentation!

God foresaw Judas betrayal and allowed it to happen, at the exact time He had planned: The Passover!


JLB

 

[JLB]

"Do you believe God forced-"

There wouldn't even be a question to be asked unless GOD FORCED creation to exist.

So, yes, God IS Completely IN FORCE in all things and not some neutered powerless out of control of everything in control of nothing pointless powerless God, as your positions propose.

I'd consider freewill postures as nearly atheist myself. I mean seriously what difference is there? In both cases God isn't involved a'tall. It's ALL ON MAN.

I didn't ask you if God's force was in all things.


Do you believe God forced Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or do you believe they made the choice to eat of the tree, being enticed by the evil one?


Yes or No ?



JLB