Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[Deborah13]

I dunno how Judas was not a believer.

The walking on water would have been enough for me...

The feeding of thousands would also be enough. (The most I ever fed was 500+ and that was a ton of work). The raising of dead people would have me shaking in my boots/sandals(Lazarus).

So along with the miracles he personally performed (sending of the 12) I would think that Judas really believed in who Jesus was.

Judas was there for 3 1/2 years. A long time for someone who didn't believe. So he had to believe.

But Judas (who didn't know something about Jesus) had to have a major error in his theology.

And to me...that's the scariest thing.

I know this is a pretty old post but what you have said here caused me to think of something.
Islam, says that Jesus was/is a prophet from God and that God empowered Him to do miracles. They even believe that He will return to destroy evil in the world. BUT they don't believe that He was/is the Son of God or God come in the flesh or that He actually died and was resurrected. They believe that God took Him to heaven. These are major errors in their theology.

Judas could have believed that God empowered Jesus to do miracles without believing who He really was.
Mat_12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
So it appears that miracles were not uncommon or unknown among the Jews, Moses' rod became a viper and when he struck the rock water pour out. There were many others and I'm sure that there were many that we do not know about. So to them miracles were not proof of who He was.
I can think of two things that we are to use to know who is an antichrist. One who teaches a different Gospel and one who does not believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh.

Not that I know you but from what I have read from you, you have no need to be in fear. God isn't a trickster who hasn't made the Gospel of Christ clear nor has He made it hard to understand.

 

[JohnDB]

I know this is a pretty old post but what you have said here caused me to think of something.
Islam, says that Jesus was/is a prophet from God and that God empowered Him to do miracles. They even believe that He will return to destroy evil in the world. BUT they don't believe that He was/is the Son of God or God come in the flesh or that He actually died and was resurrected. They believe that God took Him to heaven. These are major errors in their theology.

Judas could have believed that God empowered Jesus to do miracles without believing who He really was.
Mat_12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
So it appears that miracles were not uncommon or unknown among the Jews, Moses' rod became a viper and when he struck the rock water pour out. There were many others and I'm sure that there were many that we do not know about. So to them miracles were not proof of who He was.
I can think of two things that we are to use to know who is an antichrist. One who teaches a different Gospel and one who does not believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh.

Not that I know you but from what I have read from you, you have no need to be in fear. God isn't a trickster who hasn't made the Gospel of Christ clear nor has He made it hard to understand.

I later explained (much later) why what Judas believed was scary...I also explained by what the evidence presented showed what Judas believed.

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.

It's not hard or difficult to understand...But the ramifications of what I showed are very scary.

 

[JohnDB]

Deborah13
Here is what I later posted:

All of Israel (at the time of the Roman occupation) was looking for the Messiah. Indeed there had been several people claiming to be a Messiah and had gathered together small to large armies and met up with the Roman army and got slaughtered. Acts 5:36-37 (Refusal to pay taxes and tribute to Rome being their common theme...After Alexander the great all Caesars claimed to be a god)

Praying for God to send the Messiah was part of the customary prayer said at the morning and evening incense offering at the Temple. (Like Zachariah did when he met Gabriel)

Now it was when Andrew and John heard John the Baptist call Jesus the Messiah any doubt was removed from the Apostles as to who Jesus was. John and Andrew both wanted to be Jesus' disciples...So did Peter. (John 1: 40-41)
Although none were officially called into discipleship/apostle status until John the Baptist was imprisoned it wasn't new information that Jesus was the Messiah.

What was rather starting to the Apostles was that their Messiah was God's Son. The water into wine, calming of the storm, walking on water, and the test of the deaf/mute man speaking these miracles could only be done by God. The real driving out of demons in the Galilee region got everyone's attention....So did Jesus' preaching style. It was all in prose.

So when they were in Northern Israel at Caesarea (Phillipi) and Peter says that Jesus is the son of God AND the Messiah...It's not new news... After all it had been 3 years already. All 12 of them were there then... Including Judas.

No one didn't believe that Jesus was God's Son.

So...What else do we know?

That most Jews thought that the Messiah was going to bring about God's Kingdom (like what was talked about in Zachariah and Ezekiel)
That the disgusting Roman Empire would be gone and righteousness would be everywhere. Israel (as in the days of Solomon's empire) would rule the world. These Apostles (just like David's Mighty Men) would be appointed to high places of importance in God's Kingdom.

Judas of Iscariot was never doubted. He carried the Treasury. He was responsible for handing out money to the poor and safekeeping it as it was received from wealthy patrons. Granted he helped himself to the poor box instead of just living off of what his family had provided him with. (But this shows his motivation)

When Judas got the idea of betraying Jesus...It wasn't like it was a new idea either. Jesus had said something about it several times already. The Apostles had discussed it amongst themselves several times.

So why would Judas do such a thing?

Because as we read the different Gospel accounts it's obvious that these 12 guys were ordinary men. They weren't theologians or even exceptionally bright. They were your average schmucks. Whom had a lot of bad theology between their ears. Jesus straitened out a lot of this...But not everything. Peter kept making mistakes long after Jesus ascended.

So...Judas knew that Jesus was God's Son...He was counting on that fact.
Judas also knew that Jesus was truly humble...Never once had Jesus acted in his own self interests. (Except for the perfume incident)

What one thing was it that the Apostles had the hardest time believing?

That God would allow his own son to die.
(Peter rebuked Jesus privately for saying this)

So much so that this was what Judas was counting on...That God the Father wouldn't allow it... And instantly institute God's Kingdom. (Of which he (Judas) would be a major part).
And Jesus sent him to do it... Quickly.

 

[JLB]

I know this is a pretty old post but what you have said here caused me to think of something.
Islam, says that Jesus was/is a prophet from God and that God empowered Him to do miracles. They even believe that He will return to destroy evil in the world. BUT they don't believe that He was/is the Son of God or God come in the flesh or that He actually died and was resurrected. They believe that God took Him to heaven. These are major errors in their theology.

Judas could have believed that God empowered Jesus to do miracles without believing who He really was.
Mat_12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
So it appears that miracles were not uncommon or unknown among the Jews, Moses' rod became a viper and when he struck the rock water pour out. There were many others and I'm sure that there were many that we do not know about. So to them miracles were not proof of who He was.
I can think of two things that we are to use to know who is an antichrist. One who teaches a different Gospel and one who does not believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh.

Not that I know you but from what I have read from you, you have no need to be in fear. God isn't a trickster who hasn't made the Gospel of Christ clear nor has He made it hard to understand.

• there are some of you who do not believe.

Believe what?

• Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Those who no longer believed He was the Christ, demonstrated they no longer believed, by no longer following Him.

• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71



Those who continued to believe He was the Christ, the Son of the living God, demonstrated they continued to believe, by continuing to follow Him.

But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68


Judas continued with the others, up until he betrayed Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I later explained (much later) why what Judas believed was scary...I also explained by what the evidence presented showed what Judas believed.

Judas believed...He was a hard core believer. Everyone trusted Judas. Judas believed that Jesus was God's Son.

It's not hard or difficult to understand...But the ramifications of what I showed are very scary.

Frightening!

However the fear of the Lord is a fountain of Life, to turn one away from the snares of death, the same snare that Judas got caught in.

I for one, embrace and cry out to God for more of the Spirit of the fear of the Lord to fill my heart, to keep me from the snares of death, and become within me a fountain of Life.



So that... I can die like Grandpa, peacefully in my sleep, while the others in the car are screaming and panicking.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13
Here is what I later posted:

All of Israel (at the time of the Roman occupation) was looking for the Messiah. Indeed there had been several people claiming to be a Messiah and had gathered together small to large armies and met up with the Roman army and got slaughtered. Acts 5:36-37 (Refusal to pay taxes and tribute to Rome being their common theme...After Alexander the great all Caesars claimed to be a god)

Praying for God to send the Messiah was part of the customary prayer said at the morning and evening incense offering at the Temple. (Like Zachariah did when he met Gabriel)

Now it was when Andrew and John heard John the Baptist call Jesus the Messiah any doubt was removed from the Apostles as to who Jesus was. John and Andrew both wanted to be Jesus' disciples...So did Peter. (John 1: 40-41)
Although none were officially called into discipleship/apostle status until John the Baptist was imprisoned it wasn't new information that Jesus was the Messiah.

What was rather starting to the Apostles was that their Messiah was God's Son. The water into wine, calming of the storm, walking on water, and the test of the deaf/mute man speaking these miracles could only be done by God. The real driving out of demons in the Galilee region got everyone's attention....So did Jesus' preaching style. It was all in prose.

So when they were in Northern Israel at Caesarea (Phillipi) and Peter says that Jesus is the son of God AND the Messiah...It's not new news... After all it had been 3 years already. All 12 of them were there then... Including Judas.

No one didn't believe that Jesus was God's Son.

So...What else do we know?

That most Jews thought that the Messiah was going to bring about God's Kingdom (like what was talked about in Zachariah and Ezekiel)
That the disgusting Roman Empire would be gone and righteousness would be everywhere. Israel (as in the days of Solomon's empire) would rule the world. These Apostles (just like David's Mighty Men) would be appointed to high places of importance in God's Kingdom.

Judas of Iscariot was never doubted. He carried the Treasury. He was responsible for handing out money to the poor and safekeeping it as it was received from wealthy patrons. Granted he helped himself to the poor box instead of just living off of what his family had provided him with. (But this shows his motivation)

When Judas got the idea of betraying Jesus...It wasn't like it was a new idea either. Jesus had said something about it several times already. The Apostles had discussed it amongst themselves several times.

So why would Judas do such a thing?

Because as we read the different Gospel accounts it's obvious that these 12 guys were ordinary men. They weren't theologians or even exceptionally bright. They were your average schmucks. Whom had a lot of bad theology between their ears. Jesus straitened out a lot of this...But not everything. Peter kept making mistakes long after Jesus ascended.

So...Judas knew that Jesus was God's Son...He was counting on that fact.
Judas also knew that Jesus was truly humble...Never once had Jesus acted in his own self interests. (Except for the perfume incident)

What one thing was it that the Apostles had the hardest time believing?

That God would allow his own son to die.
(Peter rebuked Jesus privately for saying this)

So much so that this was what Judas was counting on...That God the Father wouldn't allow it... And instantly institute God's Kingdom. (Of which he (Judas) would be a major part).
And Jesus sent him to do it... Quickly.

Thanks for taking the time to explain what you believe again. I think I did read that post I read through page 9 but 56 were too overwhelming.
I think you make some good points about what they expected but in the end I don't agree about why Judas did what he did.

 

[Deborah13]

To me, Judas became lost, because he fell into transgression, which any of us could do.

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barnabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:23-25

Doesn't this scripture say that he fell from the ministry and apostleship? I don't see where it says that He fell from anything else.

They needed the faith of the Holy Spirit. We all do too. But not yet until Pentecost did they get it.

What of this scripture?
Joh 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22 and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;

 

[Deborah13]

Those who continued to believe He was the Christ, the Son of the living God, demonstrated they continued to believe, by continuing to follow Him.

Well you may have something there because even the demons (devils) know that He is the Son of God.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

 

[JLB]

Doesn't this scripture say that he fell from the ministry and apostleship? I don't see where it says that He fell from anything else.

I see.

So you believe that Judas Iscariot, heard Jesus call Him, and Judas responded by following Him, for 3 1/2 years as a disciple, then was sent out as an Apostle, being empowered by Christ to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, as an unbeliever?

Judas believed for a while, then fell away, just like the example Jesus gave us in the parable of the Sower.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Judas was a sheep, that became lost, just like the example Jesus gave us in the parable of the lost sheep and the prodigal son.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• The sheep belonged to the Sheppard, then became lost.

Lost = a sinner in need of repentance.

and again

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32

The son belonged to the father, then became lost.

Lost = a sinner in need of repentance; dead to the father.


If lost doesn't mean, without God, or dead to God, as a sinner, then what does it mean?


Judas Iscariot was one of His sheep, one of His disciples, who became lost.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Matthew 10:1

• His "sheep" was a reference to His disciples.

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:16



12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


How can Judas be lost, if he never belonged to Christ?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Well you may have something there because even the demons (devils) know that He is the Son of God.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

• The reason the Gospel doesn't do demons any good, because the prerequisite for being born again, is to first be born of natural child birth.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


JLB

 

[smaller]

I think you make some good points about what they expected but in the end I don't agree about why Judas did what he did.

Judas could not have done a single thing differently. God Planned the entirety of the events, start to finish, inclusive of Judas' betrayal. Acts 4:26-28.

Every LASH of His Flesh put upon the back of Jesus, every drop of His spilled blood, was by Gods Own Designs and Intentions.

Anyone who thinks it was all just a bad accident and series of random coincidents of some giant coalition of freewills and freewill agents really needs to examine their theology, as such sights are quite obviously FLAWED.

The reality is, Judas DID THE WILL OF GOD.

As to the opening posters claim, that Judas was saved for awhile, I would present that the indwelling sin in the flesh and the evil present with NO MAN is ever "saved." Romans 7:17-21. This basic VOID in the sights of many causes them to err in many directions.

Did the indwelling sin in Judas' flesh and evil present with Judas perform as expected?

YEP!

Were these "things" in the flesh of Judas EVER saved? NOPE!

 

[smaller]

All the disciples inclusive of Judas were told by Jesus MANY times that He had to go to Jerusalem, be killed, and then be raised from the dead.

I'm quite certain that would have been a very big pill for any of them to swallow or understand. I mean, seriously?

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


Mark 9:12
And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

Paul taught DETERMINISM:

Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

As it pertains, not only to Judas, but to EVERY PLAYER in the PASSION, every single thing, every single event, EVERY WORD that came to Jesus from others and from Jesus to others, was all entirely ORCHESTRATED by GOD HIMSELF.

Every "freewiller" must detract/subtract God from these equations in order to make man alone responsible. I find such notions incredibly against God and the Gospel.

God can not logically be subtracted from any of these equations, including the actions of Judas.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

These are some very startling "encompassing" statements of fact. The very opposite of what "freewillers" claim. YET the resistance that "freewill" claims is, oddly, ALSO from God.

 

[Randy]

All the disciples inclusive of Judas were told by Jesus MANY times that He had to go to Jerusalem, be killed, and then be raised from the dead.

I'm quite certain that would have been a very big pill for any of them to swallow or understand. I mean, seriously?

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


Mark 9:12
And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

Paul taught DETERMINISM:

Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

As it pertains, not only to Judas, but to EVERY PLAYER in the PASSION, every single thing, every single event, EVERY WORD that came to Jesus from others and from Jesus to others, was all entirely ORCHESTRATED by GOD HIMSELF.

Every "freewiller" must detract/subtract God from these equations in order to make man alone responsible. I find such notions incredibly against God and the Gospel.

God can not logically be subtracted from any of these equations, including the actions of Judas.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

These are some very startling "encompassing" statements of fact. The very opposite of what "freewillers" claim. YET the resistance that "freewill" claims is, oddly, ALSO from God.

And yet Jesus prayed for that not to happen. He did however submit freely to the Fathers will and He suffered/experienced death as a man would die so that the great many may not perish.

Randy

 

[JLB]

All the disciples inclusive of Judas were told by Jesus MANY times that He had to go to Jerusalem, be killed, and then be raised from the dead.

I'm quite certain that would have been a very big pill for any of them to swallow or understand. I mean, seriously?

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


Mark 9:12
And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

Paul taught DETERMINISM:

Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

As it pertains, not only to Judas, but to EVERY PLAYER in the PASSION, every single thing, every single event, EVERY WORD that came to Jesus from others and from Jesus to others, was all entirely ORCHESTRATED by GOD HIMSELF.

Every "freewiller" must detract/subtract God from these equations in order to make man alone responsible. I find such notions incredibly against God and the Gospel.

God can not logically be subtracted from any of these equations, including the actions of Judas.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

These are some very startling "encompassing" statements of fact. The very opposite of what "freewillers" claim. YET the resistance that "freewill" claims is, oddly, ALSO from God.

This thread is not about Freewill or not.
This thread is not about Satan dwelling in our flesh.

Please start your own thread about freewill, or Satan dwelling in the flesh of the disciples, and everyone else.



JLB

 

[smaller]

And yet Jesus prayed for that not to happen. He did however submit freely to the Fathers will and He suffered/experienced death as a man would die so that the great many may not perish.

Randy

I don't see any "conflict" between the will of Jesus and God. To say such is kind of weird to me.

The hardest thing to understand is that God had every intention of killing a sinless human being. His Own Self. Yes, that is a very hard thing to understand. It certainly speaks to SELF SACRIFICE, and I think the bulk of Christianity understands Jesus' sacrifice that way, that it is an ETERNAL EXPRESSION of Gods Own Self.

Hebrews 8:3
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

 

[smaller]

This thread is not about Freewill or not.
This thread is not about Satan dwelling in our flesh.

In your mind, of course not, because those sights are a direct collision course to your positions. So, yes, let's sweep them under the theological rug as quickly as possible!

You want to pontificate, then take the full dose of scriptural medicine.

The bottom line is that Judas was PRE ORDAINED to BETRAY Jesus long before a single thought passed through his mind. Psalm 41:9, Acts 4:26-28

Did Judas believe or was saved "for awhile?" Never did the indwelling sin and evil present with Judas believe or was saved, even for a nanosecond, which is the BIG MACK TRUCK running through your claims.

Romans 7:17-21.

 

[JLB]

The bottom line is that Judas was PRE ORDAINED to BETRAY Jesus long before a single thought passed through his mind. Psalm 41:9, Acts 4:26-28

Your scripture tag only proves you don't believe your own position, which is why you tagged your opinion, with a scripture reference.

God did not force Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus Christ.
God foresaw that Judas Iscariot would choose to betray Jesus Christ, and prophesied about it.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9

• God did not "lift up" Judas's heel against Jesus.
• God did not force Judas to lift up his heel, against Jesus.
• Judas Iscariot, made the choice to lift up his heel against Jesus.

Judas Iscariot of his own freewill, made the choice to betray Jesus Christ, and go from being His friend, to being a betrayer.

14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him. Matthew 26:14-16




JLB

 

[JLB]

Did Judas believe or was saved "for awhile?" Never did the indwelling sin and evil present with Judas believe or was saved, even for a nanosecond, which is the BIG MACK TRUCK running through your claims.

What in the world are you talking about?


Judas made the choice to go to the Pharisee's to ask them what they would give him, in exchange for betraying Him.

14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
Matthew 26:14-16


JLB

 

[smaller]

Your scripture tag only proves you don't believe your own position, which is why you tagged your opinion, with a scripture reference.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Judas' betrayal was written about long before Judas was born. And yes, I do understand that fact presents no small dilemma to the freewiller claims.

God did not force Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus Christ.

And that's just your positions blindly seeing only JUDAS. Scripture doesn't see like your claims see. Scripture sees Judas and SATAN.

Mark 4:15, Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27

God foresaw that Judas Iscariot would choose to betray Jesus Christ, and prophesied about it.

If your claim is that GOD had absolutely NOTHING to do with it and GOD had absolutely NO POWER whatsoever to change the outcome, I can only laugh at such a Divine weakling. We may as well brush such a God entirely aside for the NON PARTICIPANT NON POWER such a God appears to be. Such a God can just as well be some spec off out in the distance who has nothing to do with anyone or anything.

Yes, such is the freewill God. A mere side note to the all important will of man only.

Bah on all that kind of nonsense.

 

[smaller]

What in the world are you talking about?

Judas made the choice to go to the Pharisee's to ask them what they would give him, in exchange for betraying Him.

Your positions can't even get all the parties on the table for viewing. Your positions eliminate both God and Satan from the equations and sees only Judas. I can't imagine a more BLINDED to the obvious set of positions as those you propose.

Mark 4:15, Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27

Your position is largely called open theism, where God "SEES" what is going to happen, but can't do ANYTHING about it and can't be involved and can't change a thing in and of His Own Accords and Power.

Open theism is a mere fringe element of christianity, well debunked, it's not even worth mentioning. Nothing more than a NEUTERED POWERLESS INEFFECTIVE GOD claim who happens to make a lot of lucky guesses.

So when God saw and predicted, in advance, the freewill choices of Judas to betray Jesus (and of course let us NOT insert the devil, Satan into these equations!) God just GOT A LUCKY GUESS because Judas, at any point, COULD have chosen otherwise.

Random nonsense by open theists.