Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

FALSE !

Another misrepresentation!

God foresaw Judas betrayal and allowed it to happen, at the exact time He had planned: The Passover!

JLB

Sorry JLB. God Himself PLANNED Judas to betray Him. God Himself PLANNED to die on the cross. God Himself CAUSED this to happen and every event surrounding it was in fact PLANNED and CONTROLLED by God Himself.

It was not a random accident of Judas' freewill to betray Jesus, but a GOD PLANNED EVENT.

God in Christ could easily have chosen otherwise and prevented the betrayal from happening, but DID NOT.

God not only CHOSE to be betrayed, but also CHOSE His betrayer to betray, even picked Judas, in advance, long before Judas was born, to betray.

God in Christ Himself COMMANDED HIS OWN BETRAYAL:

Matthew 17:22
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

 

[smaller]

I didn't ask you if God's force was in all things.

Do you believe God forced Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or do you believe they made the choice to eat of the tree, being enticed by the evil one?

Yes or No ?

Do you believe God Is Involved with everything in creation? Yes or No?

 

[MarkT]

How so?

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
Acts 1:16

You mean the Pharisee's would have no other recourse in which to murder Jesus Christ, if Judas didn't guide them to where Jesus was?

Nonsense.

God foresaw what would happen, and the choice Judas made to betray Jesus, and by His foreknowledge wrote about it in the Old Testament.

God did not make Judas betray Jesus.
God foresaw the choice Judas made.


JLB

Your statement re. Judas reigning with Jesus is illogical. You can't have Jesus crucified and Judas reigning with Jesus. Either Judas betrays him and Jesus goes to the cross, or Judas does not betray him and Jesus does not go to the cross, and if Jesus does not go the cross, then no one is saved including Judas.

Do you think Jesus choosing Judas could have backfired leaving Jesus with no one to betray him?

 

[Jim Parker]

No offence meant, the red was to highlight the statement.

No problem
I usually use bold, green, italics
Green doesn't jump out like red

 

[Randy]

I don't see any "conflict" between the will of Jesus and God. To say such is kind of weird to me.

The hardest thing to understand is that God had every intention of killing a sinless human being. His Own Self. Yes, that is a very hard thing to understand. It certainly speaks to SELF SACRIFICE, and I think the bulk of Christianity understands Jesus' sacrifice that way, that it is an ETERNAL EXPRESSION of Gods Own Self.

Hebrews 8:3
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

God did not kill or direct any to kill Jesus. God does not tempt people to do evil. It was "allowed" to happen in that it was Gods will for Jesus to take away the sins of the many through His Son.

If Jesus chose not to be murdered it would not have taken place. It was a free will offering.
Jesus=>Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

It was something Jesus wrestled with as He does have His own will and who takes comfort in being tortured to death?
Jesus to the Father=>not my will but your will be done.

Jesus showed us the greatest love one can give. He laid down His life for the many. By His blood He entered the true tabernacle in heaven.

Jesus is not God He is Gods Son. He has His own spirit, mind and will. He submitted (humbled) himself to His God and our Gods will. And He always does what pleases the Father and remains in the Fathers love. Likewise Jesus commanded His own to obey His commands and remain in His love. His commands are not hard. Love one another.

Randy

 

[JLB]

Your statement re. Judas reigning with Jesus is illogical.

Illogical to who? You?


It's not to me.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

This statement was declared to His twelve disciples; Judas Iscariot included, before Judas betrayed Jesus.

Up to that moment, Judas, by his choice, had chosen to follow Jesus, and was included with the twelve.

In the near future, this would change, but at the moment, Judas still had a choice to serve God, or serve the devil.

Because God foresaw the outcome, from the beginning, doesn't take away from the fact that Judas always had a choice.

There are also going to be some, who are written in the book of life, that will be blotted out, as Judas was, showing that they also were appointed to have eternal life, but then later were blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Judas was an example of this, being blotted out of the book of Life.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you believe God Is Involved with everything in creation? Yes or No?

Yes, including the freewill of man.

choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

There is a choice to be made in this life.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15


Judas made his choice.
Paul made his choice.

What choice will you make?


JLB

 

[smaller]

God did not kill or direct any to kill Jesus.

Oh, you mean the sacrifice of Jesus was an accident?

Don't make me laugh. Sorry.

Yes, it was very much a Divinely Planned Ritual Sacrifice. Certainly no random accident brought about by the coalition of random freewill sinners.

God Planned His Own Execution and Commanded It, in quite interesting and detailed fashions.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Picture the Divine Precision of the sins of all of us, being laid upon His Own Flesh. Now, that's Divine Planning. And a mere slice of the depths of Gods Planned Wisdom in this matter.

The Cross was no accident.

God does not tempt people to do evil.

There is a principle involved with the scriptures that believers who only see people err upon considerably. God is not just dealing with PEOPLE in the scriptures.

READ:

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It's only a pity when believers only see PEOPLE. They are actually missing the main event!

It was "allowed" to happen

That is seriously the most ridiculous claim that could be. That the Cross, the death of Gods Only Son, was something God just happened to slip into creation by foreseeing the actions of mankind, and then just happening to have it all work out in the CROSS, as if it was some sidenote.

READ: GOD PLANNED THE DEATH OF HIS ONLY SON before the world began.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The question you maybe should ask yourself is this: Did God Plan to Execute His Only Son?

Let's ask God. You know, see what He Says:

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

(footnote: few see Judas there)

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Who is I? Yep! God. If anyone thinks it's only MAN whipping Jesus or MAN nailing Jesus to His Cross, they really are not paying attentions to what is really going on. Who SMOTE THE SHEPHERD?

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Who provided the sacrifice?

Gen. 22:
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The notions that some massive amounts of entirely random accidents and freewill choices of MAN brought about the Cross is total nonsense. It makes the event nothing but AN ACCIDENT OF CHANCE.

If Jesus chose not to be murdered it would not have taken place. It was a free will offering.

I hope you see your circular reasoning swirling around there. Of course the Cross was intentional. It was not random. It was COMMANDED by God Himself.

It was something Jesus wrestled with as He does have His own will and who takes comfort in being tortured to death?
Jesus to the Father=>not my will but your will be done.

The flesh may not be all that fond of hearing the Command of God, but the Command of God to flesh IS death. 1 Cor. 15:46 DEMANDS this order.

 

[smaller]

Yes, including the freewill of man.

That's where your logical fallacy takes place. IF God is involved with/in all things, there is no logical removal of God available.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Was it given to Judas to betray Jesus? Yep! It was COMMANDED by God for that to transpire:

Matthew 17:22
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

Matthew 20:18
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

And not a ONE OF THEM could have made any decisions otherwise either.

There is a choice to be made in this life.

That little fairy tale disintegrates when it comes to the events of the Cross.

 

[JLB]

That little fairy tale disintegrates when it comes to the events of the Cross.

Please post the scripture, that supports this opinion of yours.


Jesus had a choice, to have a legion of angels come and defend Him, or go to the cross, for our sake.

Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
Matthew 26:53

He prayed to His Father, to "take this cup from Me", yet chose to submit to His Father's will.

saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Luke 22:42

The scripture shows a clash of wills, but Jesus made the choice to submit to His Father's will.

39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him. 40 When He came to the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” 41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:39-43




JLB

 

[smaller]

Please post the scripture, that supports this opinion of yours.

I don't need scripture to reject your fairytales that try to eliminate God from the picture of creation. Freewill is nothing but doubletalk, claiming man alone, without interference, meddling or input whatsoever from God, making "decisions alone" and God still somehow being involved, but how, they can not really say.

The entire premise is just nonsense, really.

Even when giving a scripture showing the exact opposite sight,

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

That fact is so far from your positions fairy tale you have no way of even comprehending it, yet alone responding to it, and clamor instead for "proof" when it stares you in the face.

Yes, God DID PLAN the crucifixion, including the betrayal by Judas, which was the WILL OF GOD, per the scriptures. God COMMANDED Jesus' betrayal, as prior noted in Matt. 17:22 and Matt. 20:18.

Freewillers think God just makes lucky guesses about the choices man makes. That makes me laugh.

Jesus knew, well in advance, that ALL the disciples would forsake Him. One might even see that for the sin that it is. One might even think that at least ONE of them might have stood a shot at deciding otherwise. I mean really, what are the odds that they would ALL fail??? Surely freewill would dictate better odds than ZERO?!

It's just ridiculous the lengths some people will through to uphold utter nonsense in the face of the obvious alternative conclusion, that GOD HIMSELF PLANNED IT ALL, exactly as the scripture SAYS, Acts 4:26-28.

In the freewill view Jesus, The Sum and Manifold Wisdom of the God of all creation Himself just answered random questions people dreamed up out of their own heads, from the audience, in the scriptures.

I guess God just got lucky on all that interaction too, huh? Good thing "man" made sure to ask all the right questions so we could get all the answers from God, huh?

Sometimes I just shake my head at such notions as freewill. Yet, that too is from God, so I don't blame anyone for not thinking their way past it.

 

[MarkT]

Illogical to who? You?


It's not to me.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

This statement was declared to His twelve disciples; Judas Iscariot included, before Judas betrayed Jesus.

Up to that moment, Judas, by his choice, had chosen to follow Jesus, and was included with the twelve.

In the near future, this would change, but at the moment, Judas still had a choice to serve God, or serve the devil.

Because God foresaw the outcome, from the beginning, doesn't take away from the fact that Judas always had a choice.

There are also going to be some, who are written in the book of life, that will be blotted out, as Judas was, showing that they also were appointed to have eternal life, but then later were blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Judas was an example of this, being blotted out of the book of Life.





JLB

Read my post. Your statement, 'Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.' is illogical.

 

[MarkT]

Seeing as it was God's will and Jesus chose him, I don't think Judas had a choice in the matter. According to the true proverb, "A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Pr. 16:9 So I believe the LORD directed his steps. So unless you have some information which says a man can resist the will of God, I would say Judas was compelled to do what he did.

 

[Jim Parker]

FALSE !
Another misrepresentation!
God foresaw Judas betrayal and allowed it to happen, at the exact time He had planned: The Passover!
JLB

John 6:64b (KJV) For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[JLB]

John 6:64b (KJV) For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Who they were were who "believed not"... is revealed by who they were who turned back from following Him.

Does "they" refer to Judas Iscariot?

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71


JLB

 

[smaller]

Seeing as it was God's will and Jesus chose him, I don't think Judas had a choice in the matter. According to the true proverb, "A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Pr. 16:9 So I believe the LORD directed his steps. So unless you have some information which says a man can resist the will of God, I would say Judas was compelled to do what he did.

Brilliant deduction.

And Jesus, not only knowing this was going to happen, did not stop this supposed "sin" though He easily could have in any number of ways.

Jesus actually commanded the betrayal to transpire, when stating it shall happen, several times, in Matt. 17:22, Matt. 20:18, Matt. 26:21, Matt. 26:23 and many other similar citings in the scriptures. It's one of the most well documented COMMANDS "as it is written" that exists in the Gospels, the 'SHALL BETRAY' statements. IF they didn't happen, IF Judas really did have a choice to do otherwise, THEN God in Christ would have been just another liar or bad guesser.

A similar observation is made with Peter when Jesus said Peter "shall" betray him, Luke 22:34, not just once, not just twice, but 3, count 'em, 3 times. That's better than Babe Ruth pointing to the outfield and calling his shot ahead of time. And even though Peter adamantly said it wouldn't happen, guess what? Yeah, so much for "freewill choice." Peter could have easily figured out many ways to avoid these 3 denials. Many ways. Particularly since he KNEW in advance by Jesus' advisement he was going to do it. He could have took off and hid out in the woods for example, and only denied Jesus once by doing just that.

One thing a person learns about prophecy. When God says something is going to happen, we can pretty much take it to the bank that it's going to happen. There is no freewill option out of it.

And, if this IS the case, we might even see that God is commanding what? Yeah, sins. God didn't just "see in advance" He called the shots. No differently than when God turned Satan loose on Job to kill Job's children for example. Job 1:18-19

 

[JLB]

Seeing as it was God's will and Jesus chose him, I don't think Judas had a choice in the matter.

Jesus chose the twelve to be disciples and then Apostles, Judas Iscariot included.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:12-16

• Judas Iscariot was a disciple, and apostle, who became a traitor.
• He wasn't always a traitor, but became a traitor, because he chose to become a traitor.

Judas chose to betray Jesus, and no longer be an Apostle and part of that ministry.

Sure Judas had a choice, and chose not to follow Jesus any longer, and he chose to betray Him, in which he fell by transgression, and died in his sin, having committed suicide.

He made choices the whole way.

• He made the choice to follow Jesus, in the beginning, when called.

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when sent out as a sheep among wolves to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils [showing the signs of a believer].

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when many other disciples turned back from following Him.

• Then he made the choice to no longer follow Jesus, and no longer be a disciple, and no longer be an apostle, just like the other disciples, who no longer followed Him, when they heard a hard saying.

Why is this so called "no choice' in the bible?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB. God Himself PLANNED Judas to betray Him.

Please show us the scripture that says God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Brilliant deduction.

And Jesus, not only knowing this was going to happen, did not stop this supposed "sin" though He easily could have in any number of ways.

Jesus actually commanded the betrayal to transpire, when stating it shall happen, several times, in Matt. 17:22, Matt. 20:18, Matt. 26:21, Matt. 26:23 and many other similar citings in the scriptures. It's one of the most well documented COMMANDS "as it is written" that exists in the Gospels, the 'SHALL BETRAY' statements. IF they didn't happen, IF Judas really did have a choice to do otherwise, THEN God in Christ would have been just another liar or bad guesser.

A similar observation is made with Peter when Jesus said Peter "shall" betray him, Luke 22:34, not just once, not just twice, but 3, count 'em, 3 times. That's better than Babe Ruth pointing to the outfield and calling his shot ahead of time. And even though Peter adamantly said it wouldn't happen, guess what? Yeah, so much for "freewill choice." Peter could have easily figured out many ways to avoid these 3 denials. Many ways. Particularly since he KNEW in advance by Jesus' advisement he was going to do it. He could have took off and hid out in the woods for example, and only denied Jesus once by doing just that.

One thing a person learns about prophecy. When God says something is going to happen, we can pretty much take it to the bank that it's going to happen. There is no freewill option out of it.

And, if this IS the case, we might even see that God is commanding what? Yeah, sins. God didn't just "see in advance" He called the shots. No differently than when God turned Satan loose on Job to kill Job's children for example. Job 1:18-19

Jesus chose the twelve to be disciples and then Apostles, Judas Iscariot included.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:12-16

• Judas Iscariot was a disciple, and apostle, who became a traitor.
• He wasn't always a traitor, but became a traitor, because he chose to become a traitor.

Judas chose to betray Jesus, and no longer be an Apostle and part of that ministry.

Sure Judas had a choice, and chose not to follow Jesus any longer, and he chose to betray Him, in which he fell by transgression, and died in his sin, having committed suicide.

He made choices the whole way.

• He made the choice to follow Jesus, in the beginning, when called.

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when sent out as a sheep among wolves to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils [showing the signs of a believer].

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when many other disciples turned back from following Him.

• Then he made the choice to no longer follow Jesus, and no longer be a disciple, and no longer be an apostle, just like the other disciples, who no longer followed Him, when they heard a hard saying.

Why is this so called "no choice' in the bible?



JLB

 

[JLB]

No differently than when God turned Satan loose on Job to kill Job's children for example. Job 1:18-19

18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” Job 1:18-19

Where in these passages does it say God turned Satan loose to kill Job's children?


JLB