Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[unred typo]

What does it mean to be a slave to righteousness? Does it mean we are still slaves to the law, or does it mean that we are slaves to our new nature. If being in Christ sets us free, what does it mean to be a slave to righteousness?
Being a slave to righteousness is not a means to justification, but a result of it.

Being a slave to righteousness means that we have been bought with a price and Christ is our new master, and we’re supposed to follow him. The law of love, which he taught. Since you’re so good answering my questions, see what you can do with these:
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Who went astray, and how many did not go astray? Whose iniquity was laid on him?

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No one seems to be left out there. Whose sins are not covered under this provision, Dave…?

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

When was this law of the Spirit of life in Christ given? Jesus preached it. The disciples preached it. The Spirit still preaches it. You were made free from sin at the cross 2000+ years ago but you may not have realized it yet.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

When were we made free from sin? 2000+ years ago. Guess it up to you now. When are you going to start becoming the servant of righteousness?

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Jesus did not say...'you are not My sheep because you don't believe', He said... "you don't believe because you are not My sheep." Think about it.

Think about this: I asked you to “Answer this: What does it mean to follow Christ, Dave…?†and that is the answer you give? Cute. As for your quote, it was to the Pharisees who were not his sheep because they hated him, and his teaching, loved to play at religion, and refused to accept him as the Messiah, let alone the Son of God. No they weren’t his sheep because their deeds were evil and they liked it that way. They didn’t believe because they didn’t want to follow him. They wanted him to obey and follow their rules. So, what does it mean to follow Christ?

I'm trying to show you all the scripture that you will need to deal with because selective reading in the Bible and a clear disregard for the rest of scripture is only a building of idols.
Unless you are in the suppressing mood, test all things...

The clear disregard of the rest of scripture is what you have shown me, that’s for sure.
About all I’m suppressing are some comments mocking your own flagrant misuse of so many verses, that I am weary to even begin to tackle your ridiculous list. Have you read those verses or is it a cut and paste from someone’s site? Maybe a hastily sorted word search results list? I started to go through your whole concoction of verse snippets and soon realized that most of your list in no way proves any of the statements you qualify them as, especially when you get past the first few statements we both agree on.

John 8:44 is not to all mankind but only to the Pharisees and those who choose to be murderers and liars like Satan.

2 Chronicles 6:36 only expresses what we all know; that all have sinned, not that we have no choice in whether we sin or not. Romans 3:9-12 quotes from an OT verse that says that fools don’t seek after God.

Why don’t you actually look them up, and pick out what you consider your most iron clad example and I’ll address it. Practically none of your verses prove the idea you have put them under, and some actually disprove it if you read the rest of the chapter. Your list is a perfect example of the kind of selective reading you warn against. (John 11:35), (Luke 10:37 but only the last half)


:

 

[unred typo]

Hei, Dave… run out of tape? Lose your scissors? They’re under the wrapping paper. Thought you’d have your cut an paste ready by now. If you don’t hurry, you’ll have to wait until after the holidays for my reply.


:111: oops... Wrong BBcode... for a minute I thought there really was no Santa Claus :smt111

 

[Dave...]

Ok, i'll bite...

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Who went astray, and how many did not go astray? Whose iniquity was laid on him?

Isaiah is speaking to the nation of Israel.

1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah... 4 Alas, sinful nation, A people laden with iniquity, A brood of evildoers, Children who are corrupters! They have forsaken the LORD, They have provoked to anger The Holy One of Israel, They have turned away backward.

Lest there still be any doubt....

53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No one seems to be left out there. Whose sins are not covered under this provision,

A) 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

----------

B) 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

---------

C) 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Even your Catholic church is now in disagreement with you.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47719

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

When was this law of the Spirit of life in Christ given? Jesus preached it. The disciples preached it. The Spirit still preaches it. You were made free from sin at the cross 2000+ years ago but you may not have realized it yet.

"Law of the Spirit of life" is synonymous with the Gospel, the 'Law of faith'. Everyone who doesn't have faith will be judged by the Law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

My faith in Christ has made me free from being under the Law, meaning I am no longer bound to the Law for my justification, which is impossible according to God's Word. I'm justified by the righteousness of God.

More context...

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

***Evidence*** of the Spirit dwelling in you, i.e. already justified. Do you have the Holy Spirit in you? If you do not then you are not saved. BTW, Remember the Galatians question?

Once I believe, I am justified by the blood of Christ, i'm Sealed...

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:29

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

When were we made free from sin? 2000+ years ago. Guess it up to you now. When are you going to start becoming the servant of righteousness?

No, not two thousand years ago. And what does this have to do with justification before God?

Romans 3:9-12 quotes from an OT verse that says that fools don’t seek after God.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.â€Â



Your explanation of these verses about sums up the way this discussion has been going.

Peace.

 

[Guest]

Hey guys,
As a Calvinist I hold to Sola Fide, but I don't want to jump into an argument that is this far along. What I was wanting is to ask is if some of you would be kind enough to check out one of my lectures on Justification by Faith Alone and tell me what you think. I need some honest criticism, and I don't mind if it is pro or con. Here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... nism&hl=en

Thanks
Red Beetle
Sola Fide

 

[francisdesales]

Hey guys,
As a Calvinist I hold to Sola Fide, but I don't want to jump into an argument that is this far along. What I was wanting is to ask is if some of you would be kind enough to check out one of my lectures on Justification by Faith Alone and tell me what you think. I need some honest criticism, and I don't mind if it is pro or con. Here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... nism&hl=en

Beetle,

Your link doesn't work.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Hey guys,
As a Calvinist I hold to Sola Fide, but I don't want to jump into an argument that is this far along. What I was wanting is to ask is if some of you would be kind enough to check out one of my lectures on Justification by Faith Alone and tell me what you think. I need some honest criticism, and I don't mind if it is pro or con. Here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... nism&hl=en

If the link will not play for you,
then you need to download
the Google Video player.
It is quick and free.

Thanks
Red Beetle
Sola Fide

 

[Jay T]

Evangelicals and Catholics together? What do Protestants have to do with Catholics? Do Catholics now believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia...? Of course not, they follow the pope, not the Bible. And all true Protestants know that the pope is anti-Christ.

Your signature is interesting, and I'd like to respond to it, if I may ?

Evangelicals and Catholics together? What do Protestants have to do with Catholics?

Without the Catholic doctrines of Sunday worship services, you'd then have to go back to the Bible's teaching of worshipping on the Lord's day, the 7th day sabbath !

Do Catholics now believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia...? Of course not, they follow the pope, not the Bible. And all true Protestants know that the pope is anti-Christ.

Yes, the Bible has identified the Pope as the Anti-Christ, and the vatican as the Beast power, which will have the Mark of the Beast enforced, throughout the world, in the near future.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Bible has identified the Pope as the Anti-Christ, and the vatican as the Beast power, which will have the Mark of the Beast enforced, throughout the world, in the near future.

Oh God. And I had thought there was more common sense on this forum lately...

Some people will say anything, even a few days from Christmas, to stir the pot.

The Bible doesn't make any mention of the "Pope" or the "Vatican". Yours is faulty interpretation.

Merry Christmas just the same

 

[Guest]

Jay-T,
The Roman Catholic Church-state did not determine the Sabbath to be on Sunday. I know that they claim they did, but this does not make it so.

Some think that Christ's deity was determined by the Catholic Church at Nicea. I think this claim was made in the Da Vinci Code. Although the idea may be tempting to Arians or Jehovah's Witnesses, it does not mean that the divinity of Christ cannot be found in Scripture. A good use of logic will determine from Scripture alone that Christ is fully God.

The same can be done for the Lord's Day and infant baptism.

Many Seventh Day Adventists are not familiar with Covenant Theology.
The great Calvinist Jonathon Edwards wrote a wonderful sermon demonstrating from Scripture alone that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath in the New Testament. You should be able to find it on-line among his works.

Baptists are another example of those who think that the Roman Catholic Church-state began infant baptism. This is false. The Scripture clearly teaches infant, or what Calvinism calls, covenant baptism.
John Gill, 18th century baptist, would be one of the most scholarly Calvinistic baptists to take up the argument against infant baptism. Gill was a supra-lapsarian, and his theology is fantastic. Nevertheless, he did not adhere to Covenant theology. I believe his works are also available on-line as well. I highly recommend a thorough reading of Gill's "The Cause of God and Truth." You will sometimes hear Baptists today speak of Spurgeon, but Gill was the better theologian. Its too bad the Southern Baptists have forgotten that the greatest Baptist theologians were those like John Bunyan, Abraham Boothe, and Arthur Pink. The poor theology and scholarship of Charles Stanley and Billy Graham have hijacked most baptists today.
And that is a real shame.

RB

 

[Guest]

Oh God. And I had thought there was more common sense on this forum lately...

Some people will say anything, even a few days from Christmas, to stir the pot.

The Bible doesn't make any mention of the "Pope" or the "Vatican". Yours is faulty interpretation.

Merry Christmas just the same

Luther, Calvin, and even Pope Gregory I, thought that the "universal bishop" was antichrist.

The enormous body of scholars at the great Westminster Assembly 1643 came to the conclusion that the pope was antichrist too.

'anti' does not mean against, but it means another. 'Vicar' means a substitute, or in simpler terms, another.

Whenever the pope calls himself the vicar of Christ he is professing to be antichrist. Just as when those for pro-choice prefer to use the term 'fetus' rather than 'infant', when the two terms mean the same thing. In short, as Shakespeare so nicely put it: A rose by any other name is still the same.

Hey, how many times do you get a chance to compare the pope to those who support abortion? Couldn't resist, seeing how their rhetoric is the same!

RB

 

[Jay T]

Luther, Calvin, and even Pope Gregory I, thought that the "universal bishop" was antichrist.

The enormous body of scholars at the great Westminster Assembly 1643 came to the conclusion that the pope was antichrist too.

'anti' does not mean against, but it means another. 'Vicar' means a substitute, or in simpler terms, another.

The following is a list of the men who taught...from the Bible...who the Anti-Christ was, and is.
(Note: Remember....The Apostle John said: That Anti-Christ was beginning to work, in his day (1 John 4:3).

John Wycliff
William Tyndale

Martin Luther

Calvin Institutes

The translators of the King James Bible

Sir Isaac Newton

J. A. Wylie
Merle D' Aubigne
H. Grattan Guinness
John Wesley
Matthew Henry
Albert Barnes
John Bunyan

Charles H. Surgeon

Joe Crews
Doug Batchelor
Mark Finley
Dr. Ian Paisley
Alan Campbell
Dr. Francis Nigel Lee
Robert Caringola
Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones
Jonathan Edwards
Dr. Val Finnel
Deroy Hanson
And countless other historic protestant names......
Below is a gem that I found while researching on the internet that I want to share with all of you.
It is from the below link.
http://www.angelfire.com/on/3angels/antichrist.html

Earnestly contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Jude 3


"Protestants there are, but Protestantism is no more." --Alexander Vinet

Founders of "Mainline" Churches Knew Who Anti-Christ Was
The following quotes show just how far the churches of today have strayed from the wisdom of their founding fathers.

Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."
(Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom.
(In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubign�, b.6, ch. 9.

John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."
Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them."
Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."
Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox.

Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)
Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone."
Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)."
Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.


****************
Not too long ago, great men of God believed the pope was an Anti-Christ.� They were Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Knox, Sir Isaac Newton, Fox, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Spurgeon. Could they be right? Lets see what Pope Boniface VIII said about himself:

"The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one.

"We declare, assert, define and pronounce: To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation...

"That which was spoken of Christ...'Thou hast subdued all things under His feet,' may well seem verified in me. I have the authority of the King of kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God, Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?"�

There you have it! Pope Boniface VIII admitted he was an Antichrist. Now...who will you serve? You must choose... Christ? Or the Vatican?

____________________
�A false Christ -- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1974.
�The Bull Sanctum, Nov. 18, 1302, found in the registers of Boniface VIII in the Vatican archives, "Reg. Vatic.," L, Fol. 387, The Catholic Encyclopedia, � 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc.
***********************

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


--II Thessalonians Chapter 2.

 

[unred typo]

Ok, i'll bite...

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47719[/url] [/quote:9b867]

First of all, I am not Catholic, and never have been. Does attending a few Catholic weddings and funerals count? None of your explanation says that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, only that just those who become the children of God will be gathered in one body.

[quote="unred typo":9b867]
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

When was this law of the Spirit of life in Christ given? Jesus preached it. The disciples preached it. The Spirit still preaches it. You were made free from sin at the cross 2000+ years ago but you may not have realized it yet.

"Law of the Spirit of life" is synonymous with the Gospel, the 'Law of faith'. Everyone who doesn't have faith will be judged by the Law.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
My faith in Christ has made me free from being under the Law, meaning I am no longer bound to the Law for my justification, which is impossible according to God's Word. I'm justified by the righteousness of God.
More context... [/quote:9b867]

Right, Dave…, living in Christ Jesus makes us free from sin and death. Guess why? Because living in Christ is living in ‘love one another’, and when you love one another, you don’t break any laws that cause you to be punished with death, and if you sin, your repentance brings forgiveness through faith in the blood.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

***Evidence*** of the Spirit dwelling in you, i.e. already justified. Do you have the Holy Spirit in you? If you do not then you are not saved. BTW, Remember the Galatians question?

Once I believe, I am justified by the blood of Christ, i'm Sealed...

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin separates us from God, whenever we refuse to repent.
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

1 John 2:29
[quote="unred typo":9b867]
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.
When were we made free from sin? 2000+ years ago. Guess it up to you now. When are you going to start becoming the servant of righteousness?

No, not two thousand years ago. And what does this have to do with justification before God?[/quote:9b867]

We were talking about bondage to sin, not about justification, but freedom from sin and death. We have been freed to serve Christ and are no longer in bondage to sin. As we serve Christ, we are justified by his blood. 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

[quote="unred typo":9b867]
Romans 3:9-12 quotes from an OT verse that says that fools don’t seek after God.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.†[/quote:9b867]

We are no better in God’s eyes because we are Jews or not Jews, Dave… so what? IOW, you don’t have to be a Gentile to be a fool. We have before proved that all have sinned and sometimes, the whole nation became apostate, not just Gentiles, but both Jews and Gentiles, from passages like that. Does that verse mean that no one seeks after God, or does that verse prove there was a time when even God’s people had all corrupted their ways? Context, Dave… What was Paul attempting to show there?

Your explanation of these verses about sums up the way this discussion has been going.
Last edited by Dave... on Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:24 am; edited 4 times in total

Another true statement, Dave… I hope I gave you long enough to quit editing. :wink: I’ve been sick.

:-D Better now, thanx.

 

[Jay T]

An Example of Justification:

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[Solo]

An Example of Justification:

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Your understanding of Justification is warped as is your entire base of theological study.

You used to frustrate me that one who was a moderator could hold such a pathetic understanding of Scripture, but now I am not frustrated, I am filled with pity for you.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:14-21

By the righteousness of Jesus Christ, came the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. Not the righteousness of one who follows the SDA idea of the law, but the righteousness of the one who kept the law, Jesus Christ.

 

[unred typo]

Your understanding of Justification is warped as is your entire base of theological study.
You used to frustrate me that one who was a moderator could hold such a pathetic understanding of Scripture, but now I am not frustrated, I am filled with pity for you.
By the righteousness of Jesus Christ, came the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. Not the righteousness of one who follows the SDA idea of the law, but the righteousness of the one who kept the law, Jesus Christ.

I don’t know what the SDA idea is, being from fundamental, evangelical, conservative Baptist background myself, but you have my pity, Solo. The free gift is the blood of Christ which enables us to have justification unto life, by walking in his ways and confessing and forsaking every sin whenever we stumble on the narrow way… ‘go and sin no more’ is our marching orders. Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that you would consider our Savior’s words to be a frustrating warped experience for you who claim him as your Lord? John said almost the same thing in chapter 2; My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

 

[Solo]

I don’t know what the SDA idea is, being from fundamental, evangelical, conservative Baptist background myself, but you have my pity, Solo. The free gift is the blood of Christ which enables us to have justification unto life, by walking in his ways and confessing and forsaking every sin whenever we stumble on the narrow way… ‘go and sin no more’ is our marching orders. Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that you would consider our Savior’s words to be a frustrating warped experience for you who claim him as your Lord? John said almost the same thing in chapter 2; My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

There are many, many ways that man has determined is right and the correct "religion" or "belief" to get them into the "next life", but there is only ONE TRUE way; and that way is through being born again by repenting and believing in the works of Jesus Christ. Those who depend on their own works to get them into the Kingdom of God enter in the wide gate onto the wide path to destruction; but those who trust in the works of Jesus are those who have been born again and enter in at the strait gate onto the narrow way which leads unto life.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Jesus is the ONLY WAY; He is the TRUTH and the LIFE. No man enters the Kingdom of God unless they enter through JESUS CHRIST.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Do not pity me, I have gotten off of the broad path, and have been born again onto the narrow path. Pity those who believe in that their own works will get them into heaven as they attempt to live their sinful life sin-free. Believers do not have the burden of keeping the law of Moses to get them into heaven, as none of the Jews were able to keep the law. There were those of the 1st century who determined that non-Jewish believers needed to become circumcised and keep the law of Moses, but the Apostles gathered together to consider the matter. The end result was that Peter rose up and said that there was no difference between the Jews and the non-Jews as God gave the non-Jews the Holy Spirit, and it was their faith that purified their hearts, not the law of Moses, which would just be a yoke of burden upon their necks; which the Jewish fathers, nor the Apostles could bear. James and Peter and the other elders of the early church sent messengers to those non-Jewish believers that they were not required to get circumcised or keep the law of Moses.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:5-11

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:19-29

 

[Solo]

Why do you recite this to me? I am not advocating the keeping of the OT law and you should know that by now. Jesus taught a higher law, the royal law of love that supersedes the OT law with it’s hundred plus rites and rituals that were added to the ten commandments. The law of Moses is not the Law of Christ, and you won’t find Jesus preaching that you need to be circumcised to be saved, or not eat pork or wash your hands before eating, or any other external requirements that the Law of Moses commanded.

The gospel of the kingdom, the Law of Christ, the new covenant in his blood requires that you love one another and your God with all your heart and whenever you break this law of love, that you repent and come to the Father in faith, pleading the blood of Christ to cover your sin. Don’t throw the Law of Moses in my face again please or I just might have to get out my big, fat, red, indelible marker and shout back at you, too. :wink:

So then what is your point?

 

[unred typo]

So then what is your point?

My point is that since you only have the part of the gospel that entails the belief in what Jesus did for us and not how we are to live for him in order to be saved, you are to be pitied. Your gospel lacks the message that will make all the difference in how you live your life, and how you approach God‘s new covenant.

 

[Solo]

My point is that since you only have the part of the gospel that entails the belief in what Jesus did for us and not how we are to live for him in order to be saved, you are to be pitied. Your gospel lacks the message that will make all the difference in how you live your life, and how you approach God‘s new covenant.

What is it that one must do to be saved? Is your salvation based on how you live your life, or what Jesus did on Calvary to be the propitiation for your sin?

 

[unred typo]

What is it that one must do to be saved? Is your salvation based on how you live your life, or what Jesus did on Calvary to be the propitiation for your sin?

So glad you asked. Believe the gospel, Solo. What does it mean to believe? What is the gospel?

If your doctor says, “I have some good news,(gospel) Solo. I have a cure for your terminal illness. Since we‘re friends, I‘ll give you my services for free.â€Â
Solo says, “Great, I was scared there was no cure. What must I do to be saved?â€Â
Doctor: “Just believe in me. I’ve been to Medical school and I know what to do to save you.â€Â
Solo says, “I do believe in you, Doc. I have unshakable faith in you alone.â€Â
Doctor: “Good. Now, what you need to do…â€Â
Solo, turning to leave, “Wonderful, I feel better already! You’re a miracle worker! Bye now! I‘m going on a cruise to celebrate!â€Â
Doctor: “Wait, I haven’t given you the cure, the diet, the prescriptions,…Solo!â₦ your salvation is in following my advice…awww, too late, he‘s gone…â€Â
Sad, isn’t it?
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