Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[unred typo]

So Dave… did you finally accept my answer as an answer or did you just give up?

 

[unred typo]

bump :-D c'mon Dave...

 

[Dave...]

Still waiting for you to answer the question.

There is no third option that says "all of the above." :roll:

 

[unred typo]

Still waiting for you to answer the question.
There is no third option that says "all of the above."

That’s why I didn’t choose the third option. I’m happy with option 2, Dave… let me repeat your question since it’s been so long:
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"
2) "or by the hearing of faith"

I choose 2) since if you read to the end of the chapter, you’ll see Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision (works of the law)avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love.(hearing of faith )

 

[Jay T]

Abraham,
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Righteousness, is defined in the Bible as God's commandments (Psalms 119:172).

And it is said of Abraham......
Genesis 26:5 " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".


Righteousness can NEVER be had without obeying God's commandments.


The Righteousness of Jesus Christ is the Christian's goal !
And Jesus said of HIMSELF: JOhn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love".

 

[Dave...]

Did you receive the Spirit

"by the hearing of faith"

unred typo answers yes. Then we agree. You are already saved, sealed until the day of redemption, and your works are an evidence of God manifesting himself through you, which could not happen if you were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Jay T

Righteousness, is defined in the Bible as God's commandments (Psalms 119:172).

And it is said of Abraham......
Genesis 26:5 " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".


Righteousness can NEVER be had without obeying God's commandments.


The Righteousness of Jesus Christ is the Christian's goal !
And Jesus said of HIMSELF: JOhn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love".

We were speeking of the righteousness of God, the only righteousness that justifies us before Him that can only come from faith apart from the works of the law.

Genesis 15:6

 

[Jay T]

We were speeking of the righteousness of God, the only righteousness that justifies us before Him that can only come from faith apart from the works of the law.

Works....a very trickey situation.

"Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"

You can't work your way to heaven.......BUT.....without works, you can't get into heaven !

 

[unred typo]

unred typo answers yes. Then we agree. You are already saved, sealed until the day of redemption, and your works are an evidence of God manifesting himself through you, which could not happen if you were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

You need to examine what really happens, Dave… This is God’s word, not mine. God’s word goes out, whether by the preaching of man in whatever pulpits preach the truth, on the internet on forums like this by people who know the truth, by sending out of the Bible or other written scripture, by revelation, and the witness of the Spirit, which is God himself speaking in a voice that you can hear or in a dream or to your thoughts in that still small voice. Lots of words from God, in lots of forms, but to grow a good plant, it must be the whole gospel. Broken seeds don’t germinate. Not a weed seed, not a half seed, not a dead seed.

When these words come to you in whatever form, there are several things that may occur. One is you may be distracted by the things of this life, or hardened by sin and not even pay any serious attention to it. Another reaction is to receive it with joy but really no commitment to what it actually means. When persecution comes, you crumble. Since in many countries there is no physical persecution and many people are sheltered in church lives, not in the real world, you can live entire lives not being persecuted. But since you also have no depth of commitment in the spirit and don’t really believe what God has said, there will be no results. You don’t even produce a stalk for the fruit to come from. There is not enough goodness from the soil to support the growing of leaves to bring in the power of above. If fruit is produced, it is so puny and corrupt, it can’t be used.

Then there are those who hear the word and receive it as the word of God. These people actually believe it and follow what God says to do. As the seed grows, God continues to rain down upon them and speak to them, and if they continue to listen, they eventually will produce a spiritual body, just like the one that the seed of God, Jesus Christ, has. If this seed remains in them and the roots of the seed (God’s word and the commands to love and good works) go deep into the soil of their hearts, the cells of the implanted word will form a spiritual being who is like the one that produced the seed itself.

Notice how the seed (the word of Christ) which contains the life (of God) has to join with the soil (the heart of man), and receive goodness from the soil in order to produce fruit (the new creation made up of love). If you want to have a new creation that will be harvested into heaven when the fields are burned, you will have to open your heart to take in not only the seed of God’s word but the roots that sprout and want permeate your entire life, heart and soul and use all your strength to be available to produce a new creation, which is the fruit of the spirit.

Notice that it is a merging of the seed and the soil that produce the new creation, which is going to produce the fruit that resembles the fruit that the seed came from. The fruit of the spirit, (peace, joy, love, meekness, etc.) are the elements that join to make the new man. The new man is the spiritual being that is the part of you that will survive death of the body. This is all of you that will go to heaven when you die. The more you invest in this new creation, the more you will realize the glory of heaven. Eventually, even the body will be raised incorruptible.


:fadein:

 

[Dave...]

You can't work your way to heaven.......BUT.....without works, you can't get into heaven !

The way you sated it Jay T, can give the wrong impression. It sounds contradicting. I would say it like this...

"You can't work your way to heaven.......BUT.....without works, you have reason to believe that your faith is dead and should be concerned that you have may not have a saving faith."

Unred, I'm short on time today. I glanced over your reply but will consider it more carefully when I have more time.

Peace

 

[Jay T]

The way you sated it Jay T, can give the wrong impression. It sounds contradicting. I would say it like this...

"You can't work your way to heaven.......BUT.....without works, you have reason to believe that your faith is dead and should be concerned that you have may not have a saving faith."

I stand corrected.

My emphasis was on, works, as in completing, the salvation process.

We are 'saved' to do God's works, thru the indwelling presense of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Solo]

I stand corrected.

My emphasis was on, works, as in completing, the salvation process.

We are 'saved' to do God's works, thru the indwelling presense of the Holy Spirit.

How does a person get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God living inside a believer?

 

[unred typo]

Works....a very trickey situation.
"Damned if you do, Damned if you don't"
You can't work your way to heaven.......BUT.....without works, you can't get into heaven !

It’s not very hard if you understand that the gift is the blood by which we are cleansed. It’s as if you are a homeless man on the street who cannot get a job because he is filthy and a shelter for the homeless offers all the use of a free shower and laundry. The free gift is the soap, towel, water and use of a washer/dryer and shower stall. You still have to take a shower in order to get clean. For by grace are you saved from being filthy, and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift provided by the host of the shower by which you have been cleansed, and not by your own expenses but the generosity of your host. If you are not clean, it is your own fault, since the free gift was available to you. You can’t brag that you bought the soap, towel, water or that the shower was paid for by your taking the shower. The shelter was created unto your good works of taking a shower and washing your clothes, which it was before ordained that you should walk in them.

You cannot go to heaven if you are filthy in sin. You are saved from the filth of sin by washing away your sins in the blood of Christ and putting on the righteousness of Christ. This is just an abstract illustration of what happens. When you repent of your sin, you choose not to continue in sin. When you put on Christ, you choose to do the good deeds that he requires, since his righteousness is love for God and fellow man.

Does that help at all?

 

[Dave...]

Notice how the seed (the word of Christ) which contains the life (of God) has to join with the soil (the heart of man), and receive goodness from the soil in order to produce fruit (the new creation made up of love). If you want to have a new creation that will be harvested into heaven when the fields are burned, you will have to open your heart to take in not only the seed of God’s word but the roots that sprout and want permeate your entire life, heart and soul and use all your strength to be available to produce a new creation, which is the fruit of the spirit.

The fruit manifests whether or not the soil is good. Can the soil change from good to corrupt/not good if God has made it good?

1 Peter 1:4-5 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:23 having **been** born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you *were* sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The fruit is the evidence, not for God to know who is justified, He already knows, but for us to know.

 

[unred typo]

The fruit manifests whether or not the soil is good. Can the soil change from good to corrupt/not good if God has made it good?

No, fruit can’t be produced in poor soil. Try planting in sand or on a rock. And yes, it can change from bad to good or good to bad soil. If you allow weeds to grow in it, or if you plant weeds, there will not be room for good seeds to grow. IOW, if you fill your heart with material junk and cares of this life and the love of riches, you choke out the word. The weeds take all the goodness out of the soil. The soil might have been good but full of weeds, it’s good for nothing. If you harden your heart, it makes the seed of the word unable to penetrate the soil of your heart. In the parable, it becomes hard packed by constant traffic, like our hearts when we have been constantly exposed to doubt caused by ungodly skepticism and calloused by the world’s ideas about sin. Then it is easy for the devil to steal away what was sown before it can be understood.

That’s why we are told to work the soil of our hearts to cultivate it to receive the word. How we respond to the instruction makes the difference in whether we will be born of incorruptible seed or not. If we continue to submit to one another and to God, doing his will to love and good works in fear and humility, he will make us born of the Spirit. When we are mature, we will produce fruit.

The fruit is the evidence, not for God to know who is justified, He already knows, but for us to know.

God knew he would justify any who repent and put their faith in the word of Christ to do what he commanded and he knew that he was going to do this from the foundation of the world. If he knew who would never respond, he never would have created them but he created all the souls in Adam, even knowing there would be some who would refuse to be converted to him, in spite of all he could do for them, because of their obstinate, stubborn wills, because he wants to have a creation that loves and obeys him of their own free will. You who love any form of Calvinism, hate the free will of man not because it gives man the opportunity to boast, (which it doesn’t) but because it makes man responsible for his own fate. God has expressed many times that if it were only according to his will, all would come to repentance.

Let’s read more in 1 Peter, because he is a down to earth writer: 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.
Let that sink into your ears, take root in your heart and understand that it is the word of God that lives, and will produce fruit when it is received and allowed to grow in our dirty little hearts. How does a person receive instruction? By following it, Dave… Can it be more simple?

 

[Jay T]

You cannot go to heaven if you are filthy in sin. You are saved from the filth of sin by washing away your sins in the blood of Christ and putting on the righteousness of Christ. This is just an abstract illustration of what happens. When you repent of your sin, you choose not to continue in sin.

It is the Christian's responsibility to understand everything the Bible defines as sin.....and then ask God, to help you never to do it again !

God is ALWAYS in the process of showing us new (unknown) sin(s) which we are not aware of (yet)....so, they that can be corrected.

When you put on Christ, you choose to do the good deeds that he requires, since his righteousness is love for God and fellow man.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Dave...]

Dave… wrote:
The fruit manifests whether or not the soil is good. Can the soil change from good to corrupt/not good if God has made it good?

Unread typo wrote:
No, fruit can’t be produced in poor soil. Try planting in sand or on a rock. And yes, it can change from bad to good or good to bad soil. If you allow weeds to grow in it, or if you plant weeds, there will not be room for good seeds to grow. IOW, if you fill your heart with material junk and cares of this life and the love of riches, you choke out the word. The weeds take all the goodness out of the soil. The soil might have been good but full of weeds, it’s good for nothing. If you harden your heart, it makes the seed of the word unable to penetrate the soil of your heart. In the parable, it becomes hard packed by constant traffic, like our hearts when we have been constantly exposed to doubt caused by ungodly skepticism and calloused by the world’s ideas about sin. Then it is easy for the devil to steal away what was sown before it can be understood.

That’s why we are told to work the soil of our hearts to cultivate it to receive the word. How we respond to the instruction makes the difference in whether we will be born of incorruptible seed or not. If we continue to submit to one another and to God, doing his will to love and good works in fear and humility, he will make us born of the Spirit. When we are mature, we will produce fruit.

And hear we have it. You are claiming very clearly that we must work the works and earn the Holy Spirit. Nothing could be more foreign to the truth of God's Word. You yourself said that we receive the Spirit the moment we believe, remember? Now you are claiming that you will receive Him by the works of the law.

NT saints already have the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12: For by one Spirit we **were all** baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Immersed into Christ's death by Jesus with the Holy Spirit and born again, sealed until the day of redemption with an inheritance that is incorruptible.

The seed is incorruptible because Jesus' righteousness is incorruptible and it is the power of God that holds us...

1 Peter 1:4-5 To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God makes the plant grow, not us.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I (Paul) planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. 7 It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’sa important is that God makes the seed grow.

The proper context is explained nicely in Philippians 2...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; **For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.**

Let’s read more in 1 Peter, because he is a down to earth writer: 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.
Let that sink into your ears, take root in your heart and understand that it is the word of God that lives, and will produce fruit when it is received and allowed to grow in our dirty little hearts. How does a person receive instruction? By following it, Dave… Can it be more simple?

1 Peter 2:15-16 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-- As free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

How can we be free if we are bound to works for justification?

What liberty do we have if we are bound to works for justification?

When we look at the whole Bible, we see what was intended when He said these things. Look at the scripture posted above one more time and you will see a better context. Justification is by faith alone. It happens the moment we first believe. Good works are an evidence of a true faith, not the cause. You cannot be unborn again.

God knew he would justify any who repent and put their faith in the word of Christ to do what he commanded and he knew that he was going to do this from the foundation of the world. If he knew who would never respond, he never would have created them but he created all the souls in Adam...

God knew who would repent, have faith, and persevere because without Him giving us these things, we could not do it on our own. For this reason, God knew who would be saved from the foundations of the world. As a result, God also knew who would not repent, have faith, and persevere, and He created them knowing this.

Ephesians 1:4-5 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

, even knowing there would be some who would refuse to be converted to him, in spite of all he could do for them, because of their obstinate, stubborn wills, because he wants to have a creation that loves and obeys him of their own free will. You who love any form of Calvinism, hate the free will of man not because it gives man the opportunity to boast, (which it doesn’t) but because it makes man responsible for his own fate. God has expressed many times that if it were only according to his will, all would come to repentance.

I don't even recognize your description of God in the Bible at all. I've heard it before, it's common today. But has more to do with liberalism than God's Word.

It is God who provides the repentance; Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 etc.

...the Faith; 1 Corinthians 2:5, Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29 etc.

...the Perseverance; Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:5 etc.

Your idea of "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is incorrect. Calvinists believe in free will, but only as scripture defines it. Your idea of free will is does not exist in scripture.

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22374

Compatibilism vs. Incompatibilism. ( True Biblical freedom)
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16345

 

[unred typo]

How can we be free if we are bound to works for justification?

What liberty do we have if we are bound to works for justification?

We are not slaves to sin, Dave… but we are slaves to righteousness. Tell me now you have never heard that before. We are free from sin to live unto a righteous, holy God. You think we are free from righteousness so that we can sin and still be saved. Even a child can see the folly in your logic. But you have been deceived. The whole Bible is a call to holiness, a plea by God that we all would repent and be saved by trusting in the message of his dear Son who tells us not to sin against our brothers and gave his own blood to wash our sin away when we fall and repent again.

We are free to choose to follow Christ. If we abide in sin, we abide in death, not life. I don’t know why you don’t even recognize my God. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice and they follow him. Answer this: What does it mean to follow Christ, Dave…?

God asked about his people Israel, what more could he have done than he did for them to cause them to follow him. Nothing short of doing it for them. If it is that he forces their will to do his will, they may be doing his desires but their heart is really far from him and they don’t win the prize. You can change your mind, you can change your heart, and you can change your fate. That’s the good news, Dave… the gospel. The bad news is, you don’t want to if it means you must obey to be saved.

Our greatest problem is not pride, but rebellion.

 

[Jay T]

Our greatest problem is not pride, but rebellion.

Can you really separate pride from rebellion ?
One fosters the other.

I believe pride, leads to rebellion.....just look at the case of satan, while in heaven......his pride in himself, led to his rebllion.


Religious leaders, in Christ's day fell victim to pride, as being called: "Rabbi'.
This led them to be jealous of Jesus Christ whose influence was leading the people way from them.

 

[Dave...]

We are not slaves to sin, Dave… but we are slaves to righteousness. Tell me now you have never heard that before. We are free from sin to live unto a righteous, holy God. You think we are free from righteousness so that we can sin and still be saved. Even a child can see the folly in your logic. But you have been deceived. The whole Bible is a call to holiness, a plea by God that we all would repent and be saved by trusting in the message of his dear Son who tells us not to sin against our brothers and gave his own blood to wash our sin away when we fall and repent again.

You are building straw men again, Type. I never claimed to be supportive of antinomianism. What does it mean to be a slave to righteousness? Does it mean we are still slaves to the law, or does it mean that we are slaves to our new nature. If being in Christ sets us free, what does it mean to be a slave to righteousness? 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Philippians 1:4-6; Galatians 5:1, 16; Ephesians 1:18-20; Ephesians 3:20-21; Ephesians 4:21-24; Ephesians 5:8-12; Romans 14:4). Being a slave to righteousness is not a means to justification, but a result of it.

We are free to choose to follow Christ. If we abide in sin, we abide in death, not life. I don’t know why you don’t even recognize my God. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice and they follow him. Answer this: What does it mean to follow Christ, Dave…?

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Jesus did not say...'you are not My sheep because you don't believe', He said... "you don't believe because you are not My sheep." Think about it.

God asked about his people Israel, what more could he have done than he did for them to cause them to follow him. Nothing short of doing it for them. If it is that he forces their will to do his will, they may be doing his desires but their heart is really far from him and they don’t win the prize. You can change your mind, you can change your heart, and you can change your fate. That’s the good news, Dave… the gospel. The bad news is, you don’t want to if it means you must obey to be saved.

Why do you ignore all the scripture that I post, and then argue as if does not exsist? "I told you, but you did not hear..."

Who chose who? according to Who's will?

Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

I'm trying to show you all the scripture that you will need to deal with because selective reading in the Bible and a clear disregard for the rest of scripture is only a building of idols.

Unless you are in the suppressing mood, test all things...

Compatibilism vs. Incompatibilism. ( True Biblical freedom)
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16345

A sample...

The Holy Spirit is necessary in salvation, hence the idea of libertarian free will does not exist. Here is a non exhaustive list to get the idea across.

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, (James 3:2, James 3:8), (1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.)

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter 1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, (Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16), Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, (John 6:37, John 6:44-45), John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, (John 10:3-6, John 10:16, John 10:26-29).

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelation 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, (John 17:11-12, John 17:15), Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, (2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17), (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14), Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, (Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15), Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, (1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25), (1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20), Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

 

[unred typo]

Can you really separate pride from rebellion ?
One fosters the other.

I believe pride, leads to rebellion.....just look at the case of satan, while in heaven......his pride in himself, led to his rebllion.


Religious leaders, in Christ's day fell victim to pride, as being called: "Rabbi'.
This led them to be jealous of Jesus Christ whose influence was leading the people way from them.

Good point, Jay. Both are killer sins.