The condition, as predicated, by the word if, is to continue in the faith.
No continue in faith.
No reconciled to God.
JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The condition, as predicated, by the word if, is to continue in the faith.
No continue in faith.
No reconciled to God.
JLB
smaller
Member
People don't "make" the blood of God in Christ "effective" or "non-effective."
This IS what happens the instant anyone calls upon Jesus to save them:
Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
We know that we have what is, in effect, a spiritual deposit:
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
We also know that The Word, Jesus, IS Alive and Active, working IN us.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
We also know that we are "born" of incorruptible seed" which is The Word (Jesus) of God:
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
And, all of the above (and more), as such, causes us or should cause us to see, currently, TWO states of existence with us already:
1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We also know there is a conflict in these two bodies:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
And, as a direct result of this conflict, we do not see as well as we should see, by Divine Intention:
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
We also know from this that as such, we do not presently see how we shall appear, even though NOW, we are presently sons of God:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Can the conflict in this situation cause problems for believers? Of course! That doesn't negate the "effect" of Christ. It does mean that the conflict got the best of them in this present life.
I personally can't say that doesn't serve Gods Purposes either because it DOES serve Gods Purposes, as "all things" DO serve our Maker. The natural mind may very well think it causes the blood of Christ to be of no effect. The natural mind is WRONG and in ERROR in such attempts.
Yesterday I ran into this text while searching for something else and this thread came to mind. Thought I'd post it here. Is this significant to this discussion?
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” Ezekiel 18:21-32 NKJV
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” Ezekiel 18:21-32 NKJV
Jim Parker
Member
The Bible says that Judas hanged himself (Mat 27:5) and that Jesus said "Go and do likewise." (Luk 10:37)
You can see the absurd result of taking those two snippets out of their context.
But that is what you have done by taking Ro 11:29 and Jhn 10:28.
The passage in Romans 11 in which Paul stated that the gift and call of God is irrevocable refers specifically and only to Israels call to be God's people (Exo 6:7) and the gift of the Law of Moses. He said, "all Israel will be saved" (Ro 11:26) because "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (11:29) In that passage Paul was talking about the status of Israel, not about Jesus' gift of eternal life. Those are two different topics.
IMO, it is a distortion of scripture to attempt to make Rom 11:29 refer to the gift of eternal life which was given by Jesus to whoever will believe. It has unfortunately been used as a (false) basis of support for the "preservation of the saints" (currently boiled down to "once saved, always saved") heresy of Calvin.
iakov the fool
I said this:
"It is Jesus that holds the believer. Which is WHY eternal life is IRREVOCABLE."
The real question is why there is resistance to the FACT that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is one of those gifts of God.
But, in reality, nobody "becomes unbelievers". That isn't even biblical. The Bible discusses apostasy. Which is no longer believing. But the word unbeliever is reserved for ONLY those who NEVER believed, even though many reject that fact.
So, if there is a verse that describes one who used to believe as now an unbeliever, please share.
"It is Jesus that holds the believer. Which is WHY eternal life is IRREVOCABLE."
Where does the Bible teach that IF one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved? I keep waiting for a verse.
The real question is why there is resistance to the FACT that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is one of those gifts of God.
Your conclusion already addressed AND answers this. He LETS them.
But, in reality, nobody "becomes unbelievers". That isn't even biblical. The Bible discusses apostasy. Which is no longer believing. But the word unbeliever is reserved for ONLY those who NEVER believed, even though many reject that fact.
So, if there is a verse that describes one who used to believe as now an unbeliever, please share.
There is a WHOLE LOT of forcing. Because the gifts of God are irrevocable. And eternal life IS a gift of God.
So, if there were ANY exceptions to Paul's statement in Rom 11:29 about the gifts of God, why didn't he clarify there? He didn't, which makes Rom 11:29 a blanket statement about ALL of God's gifts.
The view that salvation can be lost is refuted by the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is a gift of God.
No. Because this is about physically living or dying as a result of sin. This isn't about eternal life or eternal death.
If it was, then eternal life would be based on human works or effort, rather than by faith. Further, since the Bible teaches that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, once received, it will not be revoked.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
I said this:
"However, the Bible does teach that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And that eternal life is a gift of God."
But that will be impossible, for 6:23 speaks of the gift of God being eternal life, AND 11:29 speaks of the gifts of God being IRREVOCABLE. Therefore, ALL gifts of God are irrevocable.
Keep in mind that Paul did NOT provide any exception to his statement about the gifts of God anywhere in Romans. Therefore, Rom 11:29 is a blanket statement about ALL of God's gifts. Which are irrevocable.
What do you suppose "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come it" means? That's a specific time period, is it not? So it's a reference to Christ's return to earth at the Second Coming, and FOR SURE, He will save all of Israel from all the nations that have surrounded Israel and are about to attack for the purpose of annhiliation of Israel. He saves the entire nation from annhiliation. Which has NO relevance to the gift of eternal salvation.
To accept your explanation and view, would mean that every single last Jew will be going to Heaven.
Paul described 3 specific things as gifts of God before getting to 11:29.
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23
So Paul very definitely included these 3 gifts when he wrote 11:29. It's just totally illogical to claim that he didn't have any of these 3 gifts in mind when he wrote 11:29.
"However, the Bible does teach that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And that eternal life is a gift of God."
Then please show how Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 do not relate the EXACT SAME THING.
But that will be impossible, for 6:23 speaks of the gift of God being eternal life, AND 11:29 speaks of the gifts of God being IRREVOCABLE. Therefore, ALL gifts of God are irrevocable.
Keep in mind that Paul did NOT provide any exception to his statement about the gifts of God anywhere in Romans. Therefore, Rom 11:29 is a blanket statement about ALL of God's gifts. Which are irrevocable.
Uh, I have taken Rom 11:29 AND Rom 6:23 together.
You've done exactly what you've accused me of. Please consider what immediately precedes Rom 11:26. "that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".
What do you suppose "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come it" means? That's a specific time period, is it not? So it's a reference to Christ's return to earth at the Second Coming, and FOR SURE, He will save all of Israel from all the nations that have surrounded Israel and are about to attack for the purpose of annhiliation of Israel. He saves the entire nation from annhiliation. Which has NO relevance to the gift of eternal salvation.
To accept your explanation and view, would mean that every single last Jew will be going to Heaven.
Opinions aren't the issue here. What is crystal clear is that Rom 11:29 is about God's gifts, which CANNOT be limited (as you've tried) to only Jewish things. In fact, NO WHERE in Scripture are the things of Israel described as gifts of God. So, nice try, but no dice.
Paul described 3 specific things as gifts of God before getting to 11:29.
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23
So Paul very definitely included these 3 gifts when he wrote 11:29. It's just totally illogical to claim that he didn't have any of these 3 gifts in mind when he wrote 11:29.
Thanks for your reply. I will think on it but at this point I'm not so sure I can agree with your assessment, FreeGrace. Can you help me see where the Scriptures relate this to the physical death of our bodies and not death as in separation from God? Adam was told he would die if he ate from the tree and yet after taking of the fruit he continued to live for a few hundred years, having children, and so on. I have always understood the death resulting from Adam's sin to be something different than our physical death and as I understand it, it was Jesus that paved the way for us to be saved from that death. Had it not been for Jesus we would die in our sins but through Him we can have life. I don't see this text as pointing to the death of our physical bodies either.
Jim Parker
Member
They are not about the same thing.
At Ro 6, Paul wrote about baptism.
At Ro 11, Paul is talking about Israel.
Baptism and Israel are not the same thing.
Wrong.
The gift of eternal life is absolutely NOT irrevocable. Scripture repeatedly states that it can be lost.
(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.
(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.
22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.
(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.
(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.
(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,
(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Jim Parker
Member
Adam was created in the Image and likeness of God.
God is not mortal. Neither was man created to be mortal.
God alone has life by nature. Separation from God results in death because man does not have life by nature; it was given to him by God. (Gen 2)
Jesus' death and resurrection restores man's physical immortality. At the resurrection, all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1cor15:52-54)
The wages of sin is death. Death is not God's punishment for offending Him. It is what happens when anyone disconnects from the only source of life.
My pleasure. Regarding Ezek 18 and physical death, the context begins at v.1. I believe v.13 is instructive:
"he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head."
I don't see how the phrase "be put to death" can refer to spiritual death. It seems more logical to understand the phrase as actually and literally putting someone to death, which was how capital punishment was administered in the OT.
I believe that all humans are born already separated from God; spiritual death. And those who don't receive the free gift of eternal life will experience the "second death", which is the lake of fire.
According to Hebrew scholars, the literal phrase in the Hebrew was "on the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall surely die".
iow, I see 2 deaths being referred to here. The first word "dying", would refer to physical death, which is a process over time. And "surely die on the day..." refers to immediate separation from God, which we actually see in the Genesis account. After eating the fruit, both Adam and the woman hid from God. They had no ability to approach God or fix their problem of separation.
So, the warning included both physical death as well as spiritual death.
First, I'm not talking about any general topic in each chapter, but specifically 2 verses: 6:23 and 11:29.
I already explained how they do, but I'll repeat:
Rom 6:23 is about the gift of God, which is eternal life.
Rom 11:29 is about the gifts of God being irrevocable.
BOTH verses are about the gift of God. 11:29 is plural to indicate more than 1 gift being irrevocable. And since Paul did NOT add any exceptions or limitations, we know that he meant ALL of God's gifts.
If ALL of God's gifts were not irrevocable, he wouldn't have written 11:29 the way he did. That would have been very misleading or even totally wrong.
One must prove that "cutting off branches" means loss of eternal life. It surely DOES NOT say what you claim.
The verse is an agricultural metaphor, not to be taken literally, as your view tries to do.
Same thing here: an agricultural metaphor.
Same metaphor. Not literal.
Salvation/eternal life is NEVER described as a "prize".
Please prove that falling means loss of salvation. They are not the same thing.
The conditional clause of v.23 (IF you continue in the faith) is related to the previous verse.
iow, IF the believer continues in their faith, THEN God will "present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation".
There is nothing in either verse about loss of salvation.
As I have already said, there are NO verses that state that eternal life can be lost or revoked. I've explained a number of your verses.
Bottom line: none of the verses you provided says that eternal life is revocable.
Yes.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:13-21
The AOD is the trigger for the great tribulation.
The enduring to the end of ones life during persecution and tribulation, by not turning away from him, though a person may be martyred, is the doctrinal context.
At the time of the end just before the coming of the Lord, the Gospel of the kingdom will be preached world wide.... As a witness.
Do you understand what this means, as a witness?
Martyrdom!
JLB
Kidron
Member
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Then your theology is applicable if you are not a pre-tribber, however, for a believer it wont work regarding salvation because we are not kept saved by our works, or our Faith.....and that is because ""Jesus is the author and FINISHER of our Faith"..
Not YOU.... Not ME.
See, its like this..
If you are justified by faith without works, then you cant be un-justifed by what could not justify you to begin with.
See it?
In other words, what cant save you before Christ SAVED you, ....how could this un-save you later.?
It cant.
So, there IS such a thing as Glory, and their is also such a thing as Logic.
And sometimes, you have to discern logically within doctrine, and not just accept it literally as written.
For example, Genesis 24:64 Rebekah, "lit upon her camel"......and you said.....see there... God says we can smoke Camels, but i prefer Marlboro.
Is that logical?
Or, ... "i give unto you every herb bearing seed"......so, you say, ""Hallelujah !!!, now i can smoke more Marijuana, as its an HERB BEARING SEED"......where is my BONG and my bag of Sinsemilla...."""
Is that logical?
Or, .."take a little wine for thy stomach's sake, Timothy"< and you say...."well, good, crack the ice and pour that Jack Daniels MY WAY".
Is that logical.?
So, If you are born again, and you say..."well, you can be unborn again".
Is that Logical?
So, Hebrews 9:12 says ...."our redemption that JESUS purchased for us is Eternal".
Then is it Logical to say that its temporary if we dont hold unto our faith?
Can Faith save you?
Is this Logical ?
Does Christ on a Cross save you or does your Faith save you?
Its not both, and the one WHO does it, does it for eternity.
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Because there is no such verse in the bible that says eternal life is irrevocable.
Case Closed.
Until you can provide a verse of scripture that says "eternal life is irrevocable", then you are teaching a doctrine of man.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1
Can a person be saved without faith?
JLB
R
Runner
Guest
By my understanding, most who believe that salvation can be lost do not believe it can be lost through evil works. They either believe the evil works demonstrate that there never was any faith, or that the evil works demonstrate that the faith has died. So this position doesn't strike me as illogical.