lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

[George Muller]

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Very odd, how some are ready to save a whole nation, by "election" apart from them even having faith and enemies of the gospel, but are unable or unwilling to accept the sure "election" of those who believe the gospel and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.:

George, you're simply full of straw men today.... because nobody is unwilling to accept that we (the body of Christ) are the elect of God in CHRIST... the only difference is that you've been taught that YOU are the elect of God unconditionally, whereas most of the church of God understands that we're the elect of God in CHRIST... not because we are, but because HE IS. We understand that it's Christ in me, and not Christ and me.

I also am aware that most Calvinists must put on their amillennial hats because that's what you've been taught concerning eschatology... so stick around and we might uncover some interesting things here.

Yes "straw men" this and that, avoids the error of your biblical logic. I am not a "Calvinist" never seen one, or ever talk to one. But those who represent that view are far more biblical in doctrine than those who represent the "free-will" tradition. The Holy Spirit is the witness and it confirms the Word of God, on this issue. That is my Teacher and the only acceptable standard.

 

[jasoncran]

so when will noah and all the those before the cross be in the resurrection?is only one resurrection. unless you believe that noah and all those are still in sheol. any of them that believed and were faithful to the YHWH are in the book of life. that is what gets you in the gates. how does one get in that book was determined by two ways faith with the torah and its predecessor to tell what god wants and after the cross faith with works(also a type of torah). God hasn't changed much. moses couldn't write of jesus if he didn't know about him, Abraham saw him and was glad. how many ressurections do you believe? two or one. I believe in only one. that will be for all those saints from abel to the time of his return.did the prophets understand the YHWH fully no. but then again neither do we just have a bit more of revalation then they did, but what they did know they were faithful to.

otherwise you have this problem. noah and the gentiles in limbo, the isreal of the past in limbo, the church on the earth and also the so called isreal and gentiles one the earth, both last groups doing what? seeking to be holy with god. I just don't see jesus coming back to once again try to save men. when he mentions any return its too late. in fact he compares his return to the flood. so how can anyone be alive when he comes back that isn't in him? the flood destroyed all sinners. yet you say that somehow there will be men who reject him and weren't that bad and then repent later after the trib.

 

[George Muller]

Perhaps the Apostle to the GENTILES doesn't know what he is talking about... Israel blinded in part until the fullness of the GENTILES be come in.. ?

The Deliverer coming from Sion and turning ungodliness from JACOB...?

The Apostles of the Lamb sitting upon twelve thrones in the regeneration when the LORD sits in the throne of His glory..?

Perhaps we should simply remain wise in our own conceits... Evidently it seems a lot easier than believing what the word of God actually says..?

Well just to take one scripture out of its context, and ignore all the others that limit the intention of that scripture, is very unsound doctrine. It is also written that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but honest reading of the scriptures shows that not "all" will accept this. So to take this term "all" and ignore the rest of the scriptures is just error.

Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[Eventide]

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Very odd, how some are ready to save a whole nation, by "election" apart from them even having faith and enemies of the gospel, but are unable or unwilling to accept the sure "election" of those who believe the gospel and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.:

George, you're simply full of straw men today.... because nobody is unwilling to accept that we (the body of Christ) are the elect of God in CHRIST... the only difference is that you've been taught that YOU are the elect of God unconditionally, whereas most of the church of God understands that we're the elect of God in CHRIST... not because we are, but because HE IS. We understand that it's Christ in me, and not Christ and me.

I also am aware that most Calvinists must put on their amillennial hats because that's what you've been taught concerning eschatology... so stick around and we might uncover some interesting things here.

Yes "straw men" this and that, avoids the error of your biblical logic.

George... Did you even bother to read and listen to what YOU yourself said when you responded?

You said that its odd that some are unwilling to accept election while affording it to an entire nation which is still an enemy of the gospel..

That's a straw man George, and if you don't know what that is, it's simply what YOU have erected as a truth against me (that I am unwilling to accept election), when in fact, that is not the case at all.

In fact, you did it on every occasion that you posted to me, yesterday. You erected straw men (things that are not true) in everything you stated.

I'm simply going to leave it be from here on in George, because you either have no idea what you're doing, which is pretty scary thought, or more likely, doing it intentionally, which IMO would be right up the alley where many of the high minded elect come from.

Have a nice day George, it's early.

 

[George Muller]

That's a straw man George, and if you don't know what that is, it's simply what YOU have erected as a truth against me (that I am unwilling to accept election), when in fact, that is not the case at all.

In fact, you did it on every occasion that you posted to me, yesterday. You erected straw men (things that are not true) in everything you stated.

Well just because you call something a "straw-man" does not mean that's what is going on, my points have been to point out clear and evident error of biblical logic. Now you have found a term that you seem to think releases you from biblical standards and if anyone challenges your unbiblical position, you just slap this unbiblical term on it, as if it has a meaning to others. The points I have made against your error, I made in clear and evident ways. Of course no one likes to be corrected, especially those who are so proud and sure of their OWN WILL. But you have been, and you avoid an honest discussion by using these terms that relate to some debate class you have taken or studied. My wisdom is not from man, but from God, and such tactics and terms will be of no value to you against the truth of God. I suggest you just learn to be honest and defend your positions in an honest way before God. If your positions and doctrines can not withstand the truth? then maybe you should repent and allow the truth of Gods Word to renew your mind.

 

[Eventide]

Ok, as the mod would say... Back to the topic of the OP.

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

So, by all means... Tell us what Paul is teaching the church of God to not be ignorant of.. or suffer the dire consequences of becoming wise in our own conceits..

 

[n2thelight]

so when will noah and all the those before the cross be in the resurrection?is only one resurrection. unless you believe that noah and all those are still in sheol. any of them that believed and were faithful to the YHWH are in the book of life. that is what gets you in the gates. how does one get in that book was determined by two ways faith with the torah and its predecessor to tell what god wants and after the cross faith with works(also a type of torah). God hasn't changed much. moses couldn't write of jesus if he didn't know about him, Abraham saw him and was glad. how many ressurections do you believe? two or one. I believe in only one. that will be for all those saints from abel to the time of his return.did the prophets understand the YHWH fully no. but then again neither do we just have a bit more of revalation then they did, but what they did know they were faithful to.

otherwise you have this problem. noah and the gentiles in limbo, the isreal of the past in limbo, the church on the earth and also the so called isreal and gentiles one the earth, both last groups doing what? seeking to be holy with god. I just don't see jesus coming back to once again try to save men. when he mentions any return its too late. in fact he compares his return to the flood. so how can anyone be alive when he comes back that isn't in him? the flood destroyed all sinners. yet you say that somehow there will be men who reject him and weren't that bad and then repent later after the trib.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"
These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, were the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

 

[Deborah13]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

 

[Eventide]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

Then you would need to explain who you believe Israel to be, and why according to the scriptures.

Fair enough?

 

[Deborah13]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

Then you would need to explain who you believe Israel to be, and why according to the scriptures.

Fair enough?

Several of us have tried, by giving scripture, by asking pointed questions, etc....
But they were taken as off topic.

So I'll ask another question from information that is given by Paul that may be relevant to this understanding.

Who do you see as the 'olive tree'?

I see the olive tree as 'Abraham'. Those of the 'nation of Israel' (either cut off, still attached, or grafted back in) and all other peoples as being (grafted in, or cut off) AS the Branches.

 

[reba]

Rom_12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Rom_12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

One body, one Christ, one bride. All in Him from eternity to eternity.

Maybe this thought will explain my view.

Mary will always be the mother of Jesus . She needed salvation like the rest of us...
Israel (the nation of peoples) birthed Christianity and needs salvation like the rest of us...

The Cross ( all that that implies) of Christ foretold over and over in the OT was God's plan from the beginning.... As is/was one bride one body one first born Son.

 

[Deborah13]

2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Sinthesis]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

Then you would need to explain who you believe Israel to be, and why according to the scriptures.

Fair enough?

Perhaps you should share who you believe Israel to be, specifically in the context of Rom 11.

 

[Eventide]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

Then you would need to explain who you believe Israel to be, and why according to the scriptures.

Fair enough?

Perhaps you should share who you believe Israel to be, specifically in the context of Rom 11.

I thought that I have, not only in this thread but in the Day of The Lord thread also. Anyway, it's always the same...

Israel is Jacob... Jacob is Israel, his twelve sons which are the twelve tribes.

Now, many think that the church of God is Israel... Although plug that in to Rom 11 and test drive it...

Is the church blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Don't people know the difference between Israel and the Gentiles ? Specifically that Israel is the only nation that is not considered Gentile... All other nations ARE Gentile.

Why is this difficult ?

Can't we see from Acts the nation of Israel being cut off after their continued rejection of the gospel and then The Lord raising up Paul to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

That's why he is the Apostle to the Gentiles whereas Peter, James, & John are Apostles to the circumcision.

Gotta run

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Rom_12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Rom_12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

One body, one Christ, one bride. All in Him from eternity to eternity.

Maybe this thought will explain my view.

Mary will always be the mother of Jesus . She needed salvation like the rest of us...
Israel (the nation of peoples) birthed Christianity and needs salvation like the rest of us...

The Cross ( all that that implies) of Christ foretold over and over in the OT was God's plan from the beginning.... As is/was one bride one body one first born Son.

:amen EXCELLENT

 

[Eugene]

One body, one Christ, one bride. All in Him from eternity to eternity.

Are you saying Old Testament believers are of the church also? In other words, we read in Mat_11:11 Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: will he be in the bride?

 

[reba]

I believe so ... what ever label fits Eugene ie; church body bride ... Christ does not have body parts laying around we are connected. Are we not all of Adam? Who is to be resurrected?

Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Where does this verse leave Martha?

 

[jasoncran]

thanks reba, the jews believed the noahides and enoch and all that were righteous would be in gan eden and any gentile who is righteous according to the seven noahide laws. if you believe that isreal is only hebrew then what about the Hebrews that never were raised in the torah? or left it and then had kids and these all never stayed faithful to the torah?

furthermore:

1) what will the levites do as they don't have land?
2) why does the church teach the nation of isreal will be the light unto the gentiles again and take note that is what they jews teach today and also then believed when the messiah would come?
3) what does Justin martyr teach about the church and isreal?i throw him in as he has the closest comments t what the apostles might have taught the church.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION], the problem for them futurist that they cant get the idea that if there a rapture then there must be TWO resurrections! yet the context of the rapture verses are dealing with has Christ come and has the dead been raised.

I don't get eventide on election. he bemoans Calvinism and then posts this stuff. he makes me feel because of my dna. I am better then him in god's eyes. that has no truth to it. God choose Abraham cause he just plain wanted to.

 

[Eugene]

I believe so ... what ever label fits Eugene ie; church body bride ... Christ does not have body parts laying around we are connected. Are we not all of Adam? Who is to be resurrected?

Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Where does this verse leave Martha?

Maybe in the same place John the Baptist said he would be at the wedding of Jesus; he wouldn't be the bride, but the friend of the bridegroom in John 3:29 though Martha's life may have extended into the time of the church.