Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

This is particularly interesting considering the reasons Moses and Aaron were punished in the wilderness. Aaron made the gold calf and Moses struck the rock.

Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses and Aaron were disciplined because of unbelief.

What's particularly interesting?

 

[agua.]

OK, if the answer is no then what is the rest that Paul's readers enter into?

Heb 4:10 KJV For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

It's the rest of trusting Yahweh for salvation which the Israelite trusting Yahweh to give rest from enemies was a type of. Now maybe you can answer my questions as well :biggrin Do you believe Joshua will lead us into the rest Jesus provides ?

How do you know this is what Paul meant?

Because it lines up well with what Jesus said and also matches how Yahweh disciplines.

I thought we were talking about turning one over to Satan.

Yes we are. What's you definition of turning someone over to satan ?

How is this the same as 1 Cor. 11:29:32?

Above, you compared it to 1 Cor 11:29-32 which is speaking of physical death but here you're suggesting it's a simile. If it's physical death Paul said the flesh is destroyed. If it's a metaphor then the one isn't actually be turned over to Satan

1Cor11: 39-22 is about disciplining believers which corresponds well with the Israelite and Moses and Aaron dying in the wilderness. I havent discounted destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5 may also imply death or sickness. If destruction of the flesh is a metaphor for destroying the sin nature why does this imply the person isn't turned over to satan ? What's your definition of turning someone over to satan ?

Yeah, I am. The flesh cannot live without God's spirit. Notice the picture of the resurrection given in Ezekiel.
NKJ Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)
Notice whose spirit it is that is giving life to these raised from the dead. There is nothing about a spirit of man.

Yes that's right the flesh cannot live without the spirit that's what I said. You said "yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again." The point is the whole person is saved after the destruction of the flesh whether this means purification/chastisement from sin or death. Either way the person will be resurrected.

I've already pointed out that Moses and Aaron were not of "those men coming out of Egypt." They were sent into Egypt.

Yeah but you're wrong. Moses and Aaron also came out of Egypt and didn't wholly follow Yahweh the same as every { male ?) adult aside from Joshua and Caleb. They both died in the wilderness for this reason.

The point is that after saying that Paul concludes that there remains a rest for the people of God. He said the same gospel was preached to us and them and that some must enter in and those to whom it was first preached didn't enter.
What is Paul saying in this statement?

Yeah that sounds about right aside from the unclear definition of "Gospel" here. Paul is using the physical rest the Israelite lost by not entering the promised Land as a type of the future rest which many haven't yet entered. The distinction is also being made that the rest from entering the Promised Land isn't the future rest Jesus will provide.

 

[agua.]

What's particularly interesting?

It's particularly interesting that your criteria for the Israelite dying in the wilderness ( and being unsaved and headed for the LoF ) is the same reason Moses and Aaron both fell in the wilderness. Unbelief.

"they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do. "

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Why did Moses and Aaron die in the wilderness ?

 

[Butch5]

Heb 4:10 KJV For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

It's the rest of trusting Yahweh for salvation which the Israelite trusting Yahweh to give rest from enemies was a type of. Now maybe you can answer my questions as well :biggrin Do you believe Joshua will lead us into the rest Jesus provides ?

It's the rest of trusting God for salvation? Can you explain what that means?

You said the rest that Paul's readers enter into is the rest of trusting God for salvation. OK, Paul said of that rest, that those to whom it was first preached didn't enter in.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them1, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest1,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works1";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest1."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts1."
(Heb 4:1-7 NKJ)


To answer your question, no, I don't think Joshua takes Paul's readers into the rest. That was my whole point.

Because it lines up well with what Jesus said and also matches how Yahweh disciplines.

It may line up well with what Jesus said, but how does that necessitate that that's what Paul means?

Yes we are. What's you definition of turning someone over to satan ?

I don't have a definition of what it means. The phrase only appears once in Paul's writings and he doesn't explain it. I suspect the Corinthians understood what he meant as he spent a good bit of time with them.

1Cor11: 39-22 is about disciplining believers which corresponds well with the Israelite and Moses and Aaron dying in the wilderness. I havent discounted destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5 may also imply death or sickness.

I don't wee what this discipline has to do with Moses and Aaron.

If destruction of the flesh is a metaphor for destroying the sin nature why does this imply the person isn't turned over to satan ?

I don't see any reason to think half of the sentence is literal and the other half metaphorical.

Yes that's right the flesh cannot live without the spirit that's what I said. You said "yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again." The point is the whole person is saved after the destruction of the flesh whether this means purification/chastisement from sin or death. Either way the person will be resurrected.

But as I said, it requires platonic Dualism

Yeah but you're wrong. Moses and Aaron also came out of Egypt and didn't wholly follow Yahweh the same as every { male ?) adult aside from Joshua and Caleb. They both died in the wilderness for this reason.

You keep trying to include Moses and Aaron in this group, they're not in it. Please show me where Moses and Aaron were a part of those who provoked the Lord "these ten times".

22 "because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,
23 "they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. (Num 14:22-23 NKJ)

Also, take notice to who it is that God is speaking to here, It's Moses. If Moses was one of this group why did God just say this a few verses prior?

11 Then the LORD said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?
12 "I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they." (Num 14:11-12 NKJ)

Why would God say that to Moses if He was going to cut him off?

Yeah that sounds about right aside from the unclear definition of "Gospel" here. Paul is using the physical rest the Israelite lost by not entering the promised Land as a type of the future rest which many haven't yet entered. The distinction is also being made that the rest from entering the Promised Land isn't the future rest Jesus will provide.

Unclear definition of Gospel? There's only one, it's been preached from the beginning. Part of that Gospel is,

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen 13:15 KJV)


If entering the promised land isn't the rest that Jesus gives what is that rest?

 

[Butch5]

It's particularly interesting that your criteria for the Israelite dying in the wilderness ( and being unsaved and headed for the LoF ) is the same reason Moses and Aaron both fell in the wilderness. Unbelief.

"they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do. "

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Why did Moses and Aaron die in the wilderness ?

First of all, that statement was about the word belief, not about salvation. Secondly, just because Moses and Aaron died in the wilderness doesn't mean they were part of that group.

 

[agua.]

It's the rest of trusting God for salvation? Can you explain what that means?

Paul tells us this rest is when we cease from our own works and trust Yahweh. ie trust/faith leads to salvation

Heb 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Paul compares the physical rest the Israelite gained by entering the Promised Land to the rest of salvation which comes later. ie. it's a type or shadow. To be clear you are suggesting the rest the Israelite received by entering the Promised land is identical to salvation right ?

You said the rest that Paul's readers enter into is the rest of trusting God for salvation. OK, Paul said of that rest, that those to whom it was first preached didn't enter in.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them1, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest1,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works1";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest1."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts1."
(Heb 4:1-7 NKJ)

Yes the type wasn't the actual. It's similar to how taking the passover seder doesn't actually insist salvation.

To answer your question, no, I don't think Joshua takes Paul's readers into the rest. That was my whole point.

It's my whole point too :biggrin

It may line up well with what Jesus said, but how does that necessitate that that's what Paul means?

We form a complete understanding on a subject by exposing that it lines up with all scripture. Jesus showed that sinning ( unrepentant ) Christians should be removed from the congregation and so did Paul.

I don't have a definition of what it means. The phrase only appears once in Paul's writings and he doesn't explain it. I suspect the Corinthians understood what he meant as he spent a good bit of time with them.

It lines up well with how Jesus taught to handle sin in the Congregation. How do you deal with sin inside your Church ? You didn't answer a previous question I asked do you suggest only an Apostle can discipline a Christian by removing them from the congregation ?

I don't wee what this discipline has to do with Moses and Aaron.

Moses and Aaron were disciplined because of their sin against Yahweh.

I don't see any reason to think half of the sentence is literal and the other half metaphorical.

Why does a metaphorical meaning of "destruction of the flesh" mean someone isn't really turned over to satan ?

But as I said, it requires platonic Dualism

Logical fallacy strikes again.
Nonsense. It only requires the body to be reunited with the spirit which is precisely what happens at the resurrection.

You keep trying to include Moses and Aaron in this group, they're not in it. Please show me where Moses and Aaron were a part of those who provoked the Lord "these ten times".

22 "because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,
23 "they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. (Num 14:22-23 NKJ)

Also, take notice to who it is that God is speaking to here, It's Moses. If Moses was one of this group why did God just say this a few verses prior?

11 Then the LORD said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?
12 "I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they." (Num 14:11-12 NKJ)

Why would God say that to Moses if He was going to cut him off?

I don't need to show how Moses and Aaron were part of those to be disciplined from Num 14:22-23 because later we're told they will be disciplined in the same way ie. not enter the Promised Land.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

What was the reason Moses and Aaron didn't enter the Promised Land ? What do you mean by Moses being cut off ?

Unclear definition of Gospel? There's only one, it's been preached from the beginning. Part of that Gospel is,

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen 13:15 KJV)

You're confusing types in the OT where Israel demonstrated many physical types of future spiritual realities revealed in the NT.

If entering the promised land isn't the rest that Jesus gives what is that rest?

Salvation. Notice rest the Israelite gained was from physical enemies and temporary where as the rest of salvation will be from all enemies ( including death ) and be permanent.[/quote]

 

[agua.]

First of all, that statement was about the word belief, not about salvation. Secondly, just because Moses and Aaron died in the wilderness doesn't mean they were part of that group.

Yes that's right. The lack of belief Moses, Aaron and the Israelite showed doesn't equate to their future salvation. Moses and Aaron showed unbelief and died in the wilderness ( as discipline ) because of it.

 

[Butch5]

Paul tells us this rest is when we cease from our own works and trust Yahweh. ie trust/faith leads to salvation

Heb 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Paul compares the physical rest the Israelite gained by entering the Promised Land to the rest of salvation which comes later. ie. it's a type or shadow. To be clear you are suggesting the rest the Israelite received by entering the Promised land is identical to salvation right ?

What is the rest of salvation that you're speaking of?

Yes the type wasn't the actual. It's similar to how taking the passover seder doesn't actually insist salvation.

You just agreed that the rest was salvation, Paul said those in the wilderness didn't enter int

It's my whole point too :biggrin

I don't think you got the point I'm making. According to Paul both those in the wilderness and those to whom he was writing are looking at the same rest.

We form a complete understanding on a subject by exposing that it lines up with all scripture. Jesus showed that sinning ( unrepentant ) Christians should be removed from the congregation and so did Paul.

I don't disagree that we look at all of Scripture. However, just because something lines up with Scripture doesn't mean that's what it's talking about. One can look at a set facts and draw a logical conclusion and yet that not be the case. For instance, I look outside and see that it is cloudy and the grass is wet, I conclude that it has rained. Those are two facts from which I drew a logical conclusion. That is sound reasoning, yet that doesn't mean it's correct. It could be that the sprinkler came on and wet the grass. So even though my conclusion was logical and fit with the facts at hand the conclusion wasn't correct because I lacked information. Since Paul gives no explanation as to what he means by 'turn such an one over to Satan,' I can only speculate as to what he means. Since I can only speculate I won't use such a passage to form doctrine.

It lines up well with how Jesus taught to handle sin in the Congregation. How do you deal with sin inside your Church ? You didn't answer a previous question I asked do you suggest only an Apostle can discipline a Christian by removing them from the congregation ?

No, that is the job of elders, however, again, I don't know what Paul means by 'turn one over to Satan.'

Moses and Aaron were disciplined because of their sin against Yahweh.

That doesn't mean they're in the group that Paul is speaking of. God said those men provoked Him ten times. If you look at those ten times I doubt you'll find Moses and Aaron as Participants.

Why does a metaphorical meaning of "destruction of the flesh" mean someone isn't really turned over to satan ?

Taken literally, 'turn one over to Satan' would be to literally give him to Satan. Taken metaphorically it could me different things, such as turning him over to sin, it could refer to discipline, but it would mean to actually give him to Satan or it wouldn't be metaphorical

Logical fallacy strikes again.
Nonsense. It only requires the body to be reunited with the spirit which is precisely what happens at the resurrection.

Logical fallacy? The passage says,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 KJV)

Salvation is of the flesh, if the flesh is literally destroyed how is it saved? If the destruction of the flesh is a metaphor please explain what "That the spirit may be saved" means.

I don't need to show how Moses and Aaron were part of those to be disciplined from Num 14:22-23 because later we're told they will be disciplined in the same way ie. not enter the Promised Land.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

What was the reason Moses and Aaron didn't enter the Promised Land ? What do you mean by Moses being cut off ?

You answered it yourself. Why didn't Moses and Aaron enter the promised land, "because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel,"

Why didn't the group that Paul is speaking of enter the promised land?

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; (Num 14:22 KJV)

They didn't enter for different reasons, thus Moses and Aaron are not in Paul's group.

Salvation. Notice rest the Israelite gained was from physical enemies and temporary where as the rest of salvation will be from all enemies ( including death ) and be permanent.

Then what is salvation? How does this pertain to the rest that awaits the people of God?

 

[Butch5]

Yes that's right. The lack of belief Moses, Aaron and the Israelite showed doesn't equate to their future salvation. Moses and Aaron showed unbelief and died in the wilderness ( as discipline ) because of it.

Yes, but they not in the group that you keep trying to place them in.

 

[agua.]

What is the rest of salvation that you're speaking of?

Eternal Life with Yahweh. What's the rest of salvation for you ?

Oh here's a question you missed answer up buddy. "To be clear you are suggesting the rest the Israelite received by entering the Promised land is identical to salvation right ?"

You just agreed that the rest was salvation, Paul said those in the wilderness didn't enter int

Paul compared the physical rest to the future salvation. Types and actuals. Are you suggesting the physical rest in the Promised Land is Salvation ? I think I'll need to check and see if any of these people who entered the Promised Land later fell away because according to your doctrine they became eternally secure of salvation once they entered the Land right ?

I don't think you got the point I'm making. According to Paul both those in the wilderness and those to whom he was writing are looking at the same rest.

I get your point but you're misunderstanding Paul's. The Israelite rest by entering the Promised Land is a type of salvation not the actual.

I don't disagree that we look at all of Scripture. However, just because something lines up with Scripture doesn't mean that's what it's talking about. One can look at a set facts and draw a logical conclusion and yet that not be the case. For instance, I look outside and see that it is cloudy and the grass is wet, I conclude that it has rained. Those are two facts from which I drew a logical conclusion. That is sound reasoning, yet that doesn't mean it's correct. It could be that the sprinkler came on and wet the grass. So even though my conclusion was logical and fit with the facts at hand the conclusion wasn't correct because I lacked information. Since Paul gives no explanation as to what he means by 'turn such an one over to Satan,' I can only speculate as to what he means. Since I can only speculate I won't use such a passage to form doctrine.

Sure. this is why you need good discernment and also investigative reasoning. After seeing the ground was wet I'd also look for clues that it had rained ie. water in the rain gauge, the street is wet, the news said it rained last night etc etc. This is why I'm confident that Paul was complying with Jesus instructions in Church discipline because there's congruency in the whole of scripture beginning with Yahweh's disciplinary actions in the Garden and flowing onto the disciplining of the Israelite in the wilderness etc. We can see that when Paul uses the term " turn over to satan" it's a disciplinary action because of gross sin ( man sleeping with father's wife ) and later in the passage Paul shows that this isn't specifically reserved for this particular instance by telling the congregation to remove any man from the congregation for several other sin reasons.

1Co 5:11-12 KJV But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

No, that is the job of elders, however, again, I don't know what Paul means by 'turn one over to Satan.'

Paul shows that turning one over to satan means removing them from the congregation ( at least ) and this lines up with Jesus' instructions to treat an unrepentant sinning Brother as a tax collector etc.

That doesn't mean they're in the group that Paul is speaking of. God said those men provoked Him ten times. If you look at those ten times I doubt you'll find Moses and Aaron as Participants.

They're in the group that Yahweh disciplined because of unbelief. Only Joshua and Caleb are said to be the adults who didn't provoke.

Taken literally, 'turn one over to Satan' would be to literally give him to Satan. Taken metaphorically it could me different things, such as turning him over to sin, it could refer to discipline, but it would mean to actually give him to Satan or it wouldn't be metaphorical

What does literally giving someone to satan mean ? Explain it for me. We know that the world outside of the Church lies under the power of satan so logically turning someone over to satan would imply removing them from the Congregation and leaving them to the mercy of satan.

1Jn 5:19 KJV And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

It's interesting that this principle has been applied since the Garden when Adam and Eve were banished. We also see how Yahweh protects His people with Job's example and how when this protection is removed satan attacks. Peter also received this disciplinary "sifting".

Logical fallacy? The passage says,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 KJV)

Salvation is of the flesh, if the flesh is literally destroyed how is it saved? If the destruction of the flesh is a metaphor please explain what "That the spirit may be saved" means.

The logical fallacy is attempting to muddy the waters by implying Platonic Dualism. ( I smell a red herring too :biggrin ) When we die we return to dust ( rot away etc) and our bodies are reconstructed at the resurrection. Destruction of the body isn't permanent until the second death and we can see this when the Pharisees plotted to destroy Jesus. ie they wanted to kill Him.

Mat 12:14 KJV Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy ( G622) him.

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

"That the spirit may be saved" is telling us that the person will be saved regardless of their physical "destruction" in the first life. What do you suggest it means ?

You answered it yourself. Why didn't Moses and Aaron enter the promised land, "because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel,"

Why didn't the group that Paul is speaking of enter the promised land?

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; (Num 14:22 KJV)

They didn't enter for different reasons, thus Moses and Aaron are not in Paul's group.

Yahweh told us why Moses and Aaron didn't enter. Unbelief.

Here's 2 question you may have missed from my last post.

"What was the reason Moses and Aaron didn't enter the Promised Land ? What do you mean by Moses being cut off ?"

Then what is salvation? How does this pertain to the rest that awaits the people of God?

Salvation is eternal life with Yahweh. The physical rest the Israelite entered into was protection from their enemies and we won't have enemies in the New World tmk so they aren't the same.

Jos_23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

The physical rest was a type of salvation not the actual. Here let me show you another type and actual.

Gen 22:13 KJV And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Joh 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you suggesting the Israelite who entered the Promised Land attained eternal life ?

 

[agua.]

Yes, but they not in the group that you keep trying to place them in.

I haven't placed them their Yahweh did because of unbelief.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

A golden calf and smiting a type of Christ won't get you across the Jordan.

 

[Butch5]

Eternal Life with Yahweh. What's the rest of salvation for you ?

It doesn't matter what it is to me, what matters is what Scripture says it is. It's the land inheritance

Oh here's a question you missed answer up buddy. "To be clear you are suggesting the rest the Israelite received by entering the Promised land is identical to salvation right ?"

The Israelites didn't get the rest by entering the Promised Land. That's why Paul said, if Joshua had given them rest David wouldn't have spoken of another day.

Paul compared the physical rest to the future salvation. Types and actuals. Are you suggesting the physical rest in the Promised Land is Salvation ? I think I'll need to check and see if any of these people who entered the Promised Land later fell away because according to your doctrine they became eternally secure of salvation once they entered the Land right ?

I think you're making assumptions. Salvation is entering the Promised Land, however, the Jews entering it was not salvation because it was conditioned on their keeping the Law. Paul argues that the inheritance is through faith and he said those in the wilderness did not have faith.

I get your point but you're misunderstanding Paul's. The Israelite rest by entering the Promised Land is a type of salvation not the actual.

Again, If Joshua had given them rest David wouldn't have spoken of another day.

Sure. this is why you need good discernment and also investigative reasoning. After seeing the ground was wet I'd also look for clues that it had rained ie. water in the rain gauge, the street is wet, the news said it rained last night etc etc. This is why I'm confident that Paul was complying with Jesus instructions in Church discipline because there's congruency in the whole of scripture beginning with Yahweh's disciplinary actions in the Garden and flowing onto the disciplining of the Israelite in the wilderness etc. We can see that when Paul uses the term " turn over to satan" it's a disciplinary action because of gross sin ( man sleeping with father's wife ) and later in the passage Paul shows that this isn't specifically reserved for this particular instance by telling the congregation to remove any man from the congregation for several other sin reasons.

1Co 5:11-12 KJV But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But, you seem to have forgotten that when Paul spoke of turning one over to Satan, He said, with my spirit and the "Power" of Jesus Christ. Removing a person from the congregation doesn't require the power of Jesus Christ.



[about]Paul shows that turning one over to satan means removing them from the congregation ( at least ) and this lines up with Jesus' instructions to treat an unrepentant sinning Brother as a tax collector etc.[/quote] See above

They're in the group that Yahweh disciplined because of unbelief. Only Joshua and Caleb are said to be the adults who didn't provoke.

But they're not in the group that Paul spoke of in Hebrews.

What does literally giving someone to satan mean ? Explain it for me. We know that the world outside of the Church lies under the power of satan so logically turning someone over to satan would imply removing them from the Congregation and leaving them to the mercy of satan.

I don't know what Paul meant by the phrase, but if I were to define it I would suggest that it would be similar to what happened to Job when God allowed him to be tested.

1Jn 5:19 KJV And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

It's interesting that this principle has been applied since the Garden when Adam and Eve were banished. We also see how Yahweh protects His people with Job's example and how when this protection is removed satan attacks. Peter also received this disciplinary "sifting".

Disciplinary sifting? I'd suggest it was a testing of his faith.

The logical fallacy is attempting to muddy the waters by implying Platonic Dualism. ( I smell a red herring too :biggrin ) When we die we return to dust ( rot away etc) and our bodies are reconstructed at the resurrection. Destruction of the body isn't permanent until the second death and we can see this when the Pharisees plotted to destroy Jesus. ie they wanted to kill Him.

Mat 12:14 KJV Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy ( G622) him.

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

"That the spirit may be saved" is telling us that the person will be saved regardless of their physical "destruction" in the first life. What do you suggest it means ?

There's no fallacy, as I said, Paul's statement could be either literal or metaphorical. When it is used literally to support OSAS, it is claimed that the body is destroy so that the spirit (person) can be saved. This belief that the spirit is the person requires a belief in Platonic Dualism. You're suggesting that this passage refers to discipline, in that case the passage has no bearing on OSAS, or PoS, so I'm not sure why you posted it.

Yahweh told us why Moses and Aaron didn't enter. Unbelief.

Here's 2 question you may have missed from my last post.

"What was the reason Moses and Aaron didn't enter the Promised Land ? What do you mean by Moses being cut off ?"

I did answer it, I posted the passage of Scripture that stated why they didn't enter the Promised Land. i'm not sure what you mean about Moses being cut off.

Salvation is eternal life with Yahweh. The physical rest the Israelite entered into was protection from their enemies and we won't have enemies in the New World tmk so they aren't the same.

Jos_23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

The physical rest was a type of salvation not the actual. Here let me show you another type and actual.

Gen 22:13 KJV And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Joh 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you suggesting the Israelite who entered the Promised Land attained eternal life ?

You're moving goal posts. The Jews going into the Promised land was not "My Rest." God said they shall not enter "My Rest". You agreed that the rest that Paul's readers enter into was salvation given by God. That is "My Rest." I think you are missing Paul's point. There are times in the OT where God made statements that were not understood. "My Rest" is entering the Promised Land, however, it's entering through faith, not through keeping the Law.

How does "God's Rest" change, in Hebrews you admitted that it was salvation yet in Numbers you want to say that it's the Jews entering the Promised Land? Both passages are talking about God's rest.

 

[agua.]

It doesn't matter what it is to me, what matters is what Scripture says it is. It's the land inheritance
The Israelites didn't get the rest by entering the Promised Land. That's why Paul said, if Joshua had given them rest David wouldn't have spoken of another day.
I think you're making assumptions. Salvation is entering the Promised Land, however, the Jews entering it was not salvation because it was conditioned on their keeping the Law. Paul argues that the inheritance is through faith and he said those in the wilderness did not have faith.
Again, If Joshua had given them rest David wouldn't have spoken of another day.But, you seem to have forgotten that when Paul spoke of turning one over to Satan, He said, with my spirit and the "Power" of Jesus Christ. Removing a person from the congregation doesn't require the power of Jesus Christ.



[about]Paul shows that turning one over to satan means removing them from the congregation ( at least ) and this lines up with Jesus' instructions to treat an unrepentant sinning Brother as a tax collector etc. See above
But they're not in the group that Paul spoke of in Hebrews.
I don't know what Paul meant by the phrase, but if I were to define it I would suggest that it would be similar to what happened to Job when God allowed him to be tested.
Disciplinary sifting? I'd suggest it was a testing of his faith.
There's no fallacy, as I said, Paul's statement could be either literal or metaphorical. When it is used literally to support OSAS, it is claimed that the body is destroy so that the spirit (person) can be saved. This belief that the spirit is the person requires a belief in Platonic Dualism. You're suggesting that this passage refers to discipline, in that case the passage has no bearing on OSAS, or PoS, so I'm not sure why you posted it.
I did answer it, I posted the passage of Scripture that stated why they didn't enter the Promised Land. i'm not sure what you mean about Moses being cut off.

You're moving goal posts. The Jews going into the Promised land was not "My Rest." God said they shall not enter "My Rest". You agreed that the rest that Paul's readers enter into was salvation given by God. That is "My Rest." I think you are missing Paul's point. There are times in the OT where God made statements that were not understood. "My Rest" is entering the Promised Land, however, it's entering through faith, not through keeping the Law.

How does "God's Rest" change, in Hebrews you admitted that it was salvation yet in Numbers you want to say that it's the Jews entering the Promised Land? Both passages are talking about God's rest.

i'm not sure what you mean about Moses being cut off.

You said it in post # 644 "Why would God say that to Moses if He was going to cut him off?"

Anyways it looks like we're not recalling what we said and are talking past each other now. Thanks for your input Butch I'll consider what you've presented God bless Brother.

 

[jonahmano]

You said it in post # 644 "Why would God say that to Moses if He was going to cut him off?"

Anyways it looks like we're not recalling what we said and are talking past each other now. Thanks for your input Butch I'll consider what you've presented God bless Brother.

Hey Agua, Butch was right why would God speak to Moses if he was going to cut off all people including Moses? God would have used words like "You" instead of "These"

 

[Butch5]

You said it in post # 644 "Why would God say that to Moses if He was going to cut him off?"

Anyways it looks like we're not recalling what we said and are talking past each other now. Thanks for your input Butch I'll consider what you've presented God bless Brother.

Hi Agua,

I know I said it, I didn't know what you were referring to when you quoted my post.

 

[angel page]

No, someone who has accepted Jesus as their savior can never lose their salvation. God does not turn from those to whom he has given his grace. However, we can turn from God. Those who renounce God, and therefore demonstrate they prefer Hell, were never saved in the first place. And they do not fool God about that either.

Revelation 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?

One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

 

[Butch5]

No, someone who has accepted Jesus as their savior can never lose their salvation. God does not turn from those to whom he has given his grace. However, we can turn from God. Those who renounce God, and therefore demonstrate they prefer Hell, were never saved in the first place. And they do not fool God about that either.

Revelation 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

That's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

[angel page]

That's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

No, it's not.

 

[gr8grace3]

No, someone who has accepted Jesus as their savior can never lose their salvation. God does not turn from those to whom he has given his grace. However, we can turn from God. Those who renounce God, and therefore demonstrate they prefer Hell, were never saved in the first place. And they do not fool God about that either.

Revelation 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What is renouncing God? For the most part I think all of us imagine a person who has wild hair, is foaming at the mouth and is running around naked with 666 on their forehead. And I still believe that this person could possibly be saved if He had ever had a clear moment and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just made the wrong choices in his life, but Grace overpowers sin and It is FREE.

What gets overlooked here is that we have many nonbelievers that "Look" and "sound" Christian to us and many believers who subtly denounce the Lord through their own self righteous works.

They are in The mission field saying good things and doing good things but are relying on their mission work to save them.

They are going to church and living good lives, but they are relying on the fact that they are going to church and living good lives to save them.

Tongue in cheek a bit here, but I think we are going to be shocked that 90% of Joes tavern ended up in heaven and 90% of sovereign hope church didn't make it.

If my salvation hinges on the fact that I will NEVER denounce God, then in the end it is me myself and I. And I have the power to negate His free Grace that He gave to me. And it really isn't grace,nor is it free.

1 Corinthians 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I think the odds are we will HEAR more believers denounce God, because self righteous believers have gotten on a works program and have judged and condemned other believers and they just get fed up with "religion" and never hear of the relationship. And because deceitful nonbelievers that have wiggled in with the works believers.

 

[angel page]

I can think of a few examples of those who renounce God. The so called apostate churches and congregations that make news now. More so in Christians news reporting circles than mainstream media.
Those who are what are called, nominal christians. They wear a cross, while also wearing a low cut top that exposes their breasts, and enter bars hoping to pick up men. Or they're men wearing a cross and sleeping with women and both are disobeying the scriptures regarding being chaste until marriage.
There are those who proclaim Christianity and yet espouse beliefs contrary to scripture.

But as the Bible tells us, God knows his own. That is why his grace is set upon those who hear Jesus' voice and he knows their name. (Matthew 7:21)

What is renouncing God? For the most part I think all of us imagine a person who has wild hair, is foaming at the mouth and is running around naked with 666 on their forehead. And I still believe that this person could possibly be saved if He had ever had a clear moment and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just made the wrong choices in his life, but Grace overpowers sin and It is FREE.

What gets overlooked here is that we have many nonbelievers that "Look" and "sound" Christian to us and many believers who subtly denounce the Lord through their own self righteous works.

They are in The mission field saying good things and doing good things but are relying on their mission work to save them.

They are going to church and living good lives, but they are relying on the fact that they are going to church and living good lives to save them.

Tongue in cheek a bit here, but I think we are going to be shocked that 90% of Joes tavern ended up in heaven and 90% of sovereign hope church didn't make it.

If my salvation hinges on the fact that I will NEVER denounce God, then in the end it is me myself and I. And I have the power to negate His free Grace that He gave to me. And it really isn't grace,nor is it free.

1 Corinthians 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I think the odds are we will HEAR more believers denounce God, because self righteous believers have gotten on a works program and have judged and condemned other believers and they just get fed up with "religion" and never hear of the relationship. And because deceitful nonbelievers that have wiggled in with the works believers.