Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Edward]

I have no idea what you are getting at. When it comes to faith, there should be no fear and trembling. Trust is the absence of fear. 1 Jn 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

However, any believer who persists in unrepentant sin should fear a great deal. Why? 2 reason. Loss of blessing in time and reward in eternity. Second, God's hand of discipline to His children. Heb 12:6 is SCARY.
"For whom the Lord loveth hechasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

Scourge = "skin alive with a whip". That's how the believers understood that word when it was written. This isn't just a little slap on the hand. In fact, Paul gives us a glimpse of HOW God the Father disciplines His errant children: 1 Cor 5:5 -

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Notice that the incestuous man was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, yet his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord. iow, Satan was free to "have at" him. And we know how that looks from Job 1 and 2. If any believer doesn't understand how much Satan can cause someone pain, they just don't know the Bible.

In fact, the writer of Hebrews gives a stern warning about God's hand of discipline: Heb 10:31 - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

That's where fear belongs. Not for salvation, but for God's hand of discipline.

That's a good answer brother. Hmmm...maybe. I absolutely agree with the first part of your post. The beginning of wisdom, is the fear of the Lord. As we progress in our walk (and are re-newed) we (are being made perfect in love) so the fear passes and is replaced by the joy of the Lord.

But the reverence remains. We are kept in check by such scriptures as;

Revelation 3:16
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth./(KJV)

When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us. What does spew thee out of my mouth mean? Does that mean still saved? I would like to think so, but...the tone of it may suggest otherwise.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

This isn't difficult. They have fallen away from what they used to believe. "believed for a while", then fell away. You're making more of the parable than Jesus indicated. He was indicating believers who quit believing. He said nothing about falling away from salvation. See Rom 11:29 and Psa 37:23-24 for your security. God holds you. Not the other way around.

It all about salvation!

What they used to believe is Jesus.

Jesus is Salvation.

No more Jesus, no more Salvation.

It's not complicated.

Maybe you believe another Gospel that doesn't involve believing in Jesus.

If that's what you believe then I can see why you are resisting His message here in Luke 8.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

That's a good answer brother. Hmmm...maybe. I absolutely agree with the first part of your post. The beginning of wisdom, is the fear of the Lord. As we progress in our walk (and are re-newed) we (are being made perfect in love) so the fear passes and is replaced by the joy of the Lord.

But the reverence remains. We are kept in check by such scriptures as;

Revelation 3:16
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth./(KJV)

When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us. What does spew thee out of my mouth mean? Does that mean still saved? I would like to think so, but...the tone of it may suggest otherwise.

Edward~~When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us.

If we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants to do with us, what makes you think you have the power to stop Him from saving you if you have believed?


“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

 

[Edward]

Edward~~When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us.

If we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants to do with us, what makes you think you have the power to stop Him from saving you if you have believed?


“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

Great scriptures that we all can have faith in. But let me ask you this, what's your take on Revelation 3:16 ?

And what do think about the scripture in Matthew 7:21-23 ? Will those people be saved?
It doesn't sound like it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[gr8grace3]

That's a good answer brother. Hmmm...maybe. I absolutely agree with the first part of your post. The beginning of wisdom, is the fear of the Lord. As we progress in our walk (and are re-newed) we (are being made perfect in love) so the fear passes and is replaced by the joy of the Lord.

But the reverence remains. We are kept in check by such scriptures as;

Revelation 3:16
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth./(KJV)

When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us. What does spew thee out of my mouth mean? Does that mean still saved? I would like to think so, but...the tone of it may suggest otherwise.

I believe Spew the out of thy mouth is the sin unto death for a believer. they have chosen not to live in Gods Plan for their life and are in reversionism and are not coming out of it.

The Lord sought to kill Moses at one time, and it was deferred, but the Lord still reinstated it later. Do you believe Moses will be in the lake of Fire? Or was Moses being severely disciplined for his disobedience?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue of "continuing" does take effort. In fact, if I have to continue, that makes me responsible for my salvation. No one yet has shown any verse that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. There's a whole lot of assummin' going on, but no clear verses on it.

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)


And here is my response to what you're going to say next about the passage I just quoted:

"The words were plain and clear before you clouded it up with your interpretation."

He didn't. What is your point?

The point is, I'm told by OSAS that I have to have faith to be saved so that I won't be guilty of trying to earn my salvation through works, but then OSAS tells me that if I have to continue to have faith to be saved I'm now guilty of trying to earn my salvation through works.

Please answer (I don't insist, like you) this question. Jesus describes believers, who are also described as children of God, as being in the Father's hand (Jn 10:28-29), which no one can pluck out.

So, who is doing the holding here, the Father, or His child?

The Father, but we know from the whole counsel of the scriptures that the believer can disown the Father and walk away from the Father's inheritance on his own through indifference and/or outright contempt for that inheritance.

 

[Edward]

I believe Spew the out of thy mouth is the sin unto death for a believer. they have chosen not to live in Gods Plan for their life and are in reversionism and are not coming out of it.

The Lord sought to kill Moses at one time, and it was deferred, but the Lord still reinstated it later. Do you believe Moses will be in the lake of Fire? Or was Moses being severely disciplined for his disobedience?

It does not say the sin unto death, it says lukewarm. You're reading into it brother. We have to be careful about that.

"Lukewarm" from Revelation 3:16

G5513
χλιαρός
chliaros
khlee-ar-os'
From χλίω chliō (to warm); tepid: - lukewarm./(E-Sword)

Nothing about the sin unto death or the Holy Spirit.

 

[gr8grace3]

Great scriptures that we all can have faith in. But let me ask you this, what's your take on Revelation 3:16 ?

And what do think about the scripture in Matthew 7:21-23 ? Will those people be saved?
It doesn't sound like it.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Your Matthew verses are pointing to people who think that their good works get them to heaven. We see it in church,(and Here) professing Jesus, and following His ways,feeding the poor in his Name,going to church, doing missions in His name, living a good moral life......and COUNTING on these things to get to heaven and In reality never believed in Christ alone for their salvation and never had a relationship with Him because they were to busy "trying to get saved."

These people will "look" saved to us. But they are not. They are our modern day pharisees.

They never truly did the will of the Father.....John 6:40 NASB~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

They may profess the Son and know the Bible and debate with the best of 'em, but they never truly believed in Christ alone for their salvation.

 

[JLB]

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2 Chronicles 15.2
Edward~~When it comes down to it, God is the judge, and we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants with us.

If we are powerless to stop Him from doing anything He wants to do with us, what makes you think you have the power to stop Him from saving you if you have believed?


“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

Stop believing and you will stop receiving what believing grants to the believer.

Believe for a while - saved for a while.

Believe to the end - saved to the end.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your Matthew verses are pointing to people who think that their good works get them to heaven. We see it in church,(and Here) professing Jesus, and following His ways,feeding the poor in his Name,going to church, doing missions in His name, living a good moral life......and COUNTING on these things to get to heaven and In reality never believed in Christ alone for their salvation and never had a relationship with Him because they were to busy "trying to get saved."

These people will "look" saved to us. But they are not. They are our modern day pharisees.

They never truly did the will of the Father.....John 6:40 NASB~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

They may profess the Son and know the Bible and debate with the best of 'em, but they never truly believed in Christ alone for their salvation.

The work is believing.


The same work of believing that caused you to be saved, is the same work of continuing to believe that will continue to save you.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

It does not say the sin unto death, it says lukewarm. You're reading into it brother. We have to be careful about that.

"Lukewarm" from Revelation 3:16

G5513
χλιαρός
chliaros
khlee-ar-os'
From χλίω chliō (to warm); tepid: - lukewarm./(E-Sword)

Nothing about the sin unto death or the Holy Spirit.

I wasn't talking about "lukewarm" I was referring to "Spew thee out."

 

[Edward]

Your Matthew verses are pointing to people who think that their good works get them to heaven. We see it in church,(and Here) professing Jesus, and following His ways,feeding the poor in his Name,going to church, doing missions in His name, living a good moral life......and COUNTING on these things to get to heaven and In reality never believed in Christ alone for their salvation and never had a relationship with Him because they were to busy "trying to get saved."

These people will "look" saved to us. But they are not. They are our modern day pharisees.

They never truly did the will of the Father.....John 6:40 NASB~~"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

They may profess the Son and know the Bible and debate with the best of 'em, but they never truly believed in Christ alone for their salvation.

So you seem to be saying that all one has to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus, and it doesn't matter how they live? They do not have to try to do any works for the Lord, or to be good to people or the poor, and they will be saved eh? Hmmm.

Ok I guess a good question at this time would be, what does believe mean?

 

[Edward]

I wasn't talking about "lukewarm" I was referring to "Spew thee out."

But if you're lukewarm, then He will spew thee out. What do we do with that?

 

[gr8grace3]

The work is believing.


The same work of believing that caused you to be saved, is the same work of continuing to believe that will continue to save you.


JLB

The actual work of salvation is Grace and Christ. We obtain it from a one shot decision for Christ. Acts 16:31

What gets lost in this is that it is the Spirit that makes our weak faith(Spiritually dead faith) effectual.

 

[jonahmano]

No I'm not doing any such thing. I clearly said that such things are NOT for salvation. Faith in Christ is for salvation. These things are FOR believers, in order to grow up spiritually. Seems you missed my whole point.

So indirectly you are meaning that it doesn't matter whether a person prays, reads bible or fellowship and he is saved only because he hath believed in Christ. So doesn't matter if he skips prayers, bible reading and fellowship and start concentrating in his own worldly pleasures and he won't be cast out as long as he hath faith in Jesus Christ but doesn't involve in any spiritual exercises like prayer, bible-reading and fellowship

People who have believed in Christ go to heaven. All of God's children go to heaven. All who possess eternal life go to heaven.

Your question insinuates that those things are needed to get into heaven. Please cite your evidence from Scripture.

I have no insinuation. I'm just throwing an example to you. What if a person who believes in Christ Jesus but doesn't do any of the things like prayers, fellowship and bible-reading. Will he go to heaven? If you say he will go to heaven then you are stating that prayers, bible-reading, fellowship are just options and not necessity. Man can just believe in Christ and live a happy wordly life earning money and earning money and earning money?????

 

[gr8grace3]

So you seem to be saying that all one has to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus, and it doesn't matter how they live? They do not have to try to do any works for the Lord, or to be good to people or the poor, and they will be saved eh? Hmmm.

Ok I guess a good question at this time would be, what does believe mean?

Edward come on. When you were saved, was your first inclination," wooo hoooo I can Live anyway I want?" And to be honest, How were you living at the moment you were saved? was it upright and holy? That argument originated from someone who was never born again in the first place. Anyone who has been born again KNOWS that that is not the first inclination of a born again believer.

Were you doing works for the lord and being good to people before you were saved and when you were saved?

Now, after salvation we SHOULD do good works as a RESULT of salvation, not to obtain that which we already have.

We believe.....John 3:16~~"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When we believe and are saved do we have a firm root to begin with? No, we do not. We grow in His grace and Knowledge through bible doctrine.

After salvation our object becomes the word.....to grow the root.

For salvation faith must be in the object,(Christ)after salvation the object becomes His word. They fell away from His word, not their salvation.

Luke 8:15 NASB~~"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Great. Now the parable of the sower isn't even about salvation anymore. Where does this deceitful redefining stop?

 

[gr8grace3]

But if you're lukewarm, then He will spew thee out. What do we do with that?

Get HOT for him Brother.

Edward, you have always been reasonable and from what I have seen, you seek the truth and are willing to discuss Scriptures. So give me this please.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

Where is the "maybe not perish" or "might not perish" or "May have eternal life" or "Might have eternal life" in these dogmatic statements?

 

[gr8grace3]

Great. Now the parable of the sower isn't even about salvation anymore. Where does this deceitful redefining stop?

Oh there is salvation in it friend. There is just no loss of salvation in it.

 

[chessman]

Seeded plants that have no roots. How does that work?

Ever grow tomatoes? You can start them from seed or a plant. By starting from seed you better start early in a green house and take extra care of them until they can be planted outside. If you start with a plant, however, somebody else has done the work of establishing a root system for you.
Sound familiar?

Now or course you're going to rant and rave about the NASB adding the word 'firm' to the passage ,

And of course you're wrong. I have no problem with the NASB. That be the point I was making, in fact. Our human roots want do. Including being rooted in Abraham. It's not enough to play a Christian on TV. You have to be one firmly rooted in Christ or you're just acting like a Christian. It took and continues to take The Root for one to be saved.