Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

How do you get obtain the promise land out of phrase "partaker of Christ".

Because Hebrews 3 is not the only chapter in the entirety of the book. It's telling a story. Hebrews 3 is speaking of the same Jews in Hebrews 11.

The promise wasn't just land, it was also family. (Heb 6:13-15 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”d 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.)

I thought you were knowledgeable on the blood of Christ? (Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.)

We are not holy because of (our) works, we are made holy through the cross and the works of Jesus. (Heb 10:8-10 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)

Jesus died for past/present/future sins. (Heb 10:11:14 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.)

 

[Edward]

Edward come on. When you were saved, was your first inclination," wooo hoooo I can Live anyway I want?" And to be honest, How were you living at the moment you were saved? was it upright and holy? That argument originated from someone who was never born again in the first place. Anyone who has been born again KNOWS that that is not the first inclination of a born again believer.

Were you doing works for the lord and being good to people before you were saved and when you were saved?

Now, after salvation we SHOULD do good works as a RESULT of salvation, not to obtain that which we already have.

We believe.....John 3:16~~"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Of course not. My first feelings were a mixture of fear and relief. I was living pretty bad, playing around with a lot of girls. Then I was headed for death, literally. I was about to have an accident at 70 MPH on the highway, and reached out to the Lord. And here I am! During the 4 months on my back recovering, I had much time to reflect upon what happened. I knew that the Lord saved me. I just knew it. So got serious about living for the Lord.

Get HOT for him Brother.

Edward, you have always been reasonable and from what I have seen, you seek the truth and are willing to discuss Scriptures. So give me this please.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

Where is the "maybe not perish" or "might not perish" or "May have eternal life" or "Might have eternal life" in these dogmatic statements?

Fair enough. I have a sneaking suspicion that all men are born with their names written in the book of life. For He died for all, and is not willing that any should perish. Then, I think that somewhere along the line, names get blotted out.

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels./(KJV)

Psalm 69:28
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous./

I don't think there's any scriptures where it speaks of names being written into the book, only blotted out. We are born saved (because we are not yet at the age of accountability) so at some point people are blotted out. They have a chance to turn to Him, and the Lord knows if they will or not, not being subject to time.

Ok, your scriptures that you wanted me to comment on. Yes brother, I absolutely believe in them, whole heartedly. There will be rank in heaven, for it is written that some shall be called the least in heaven. Some will barely make it in so to speak. Others (many others) will be blotted out. But for some true belief (read trust and relationship!), yes, all one has to do is to believe to be saved.

Do you agree that children who die in the womb or as a young child go to heaven? So in effect, we are born saved and do lose it at some point. Do you think this speculation holds water?

 

[JLB]

I agree with you JLB, it is human view point and divine view point becomes blurred and even blinded by human view point.

Human view point and being choked with it, will lead to many false beliefs. One of those false beliefs will be that it wasn't a promise to believers that He WILL give us eternal life. It turns into He,"Might" give us eternal life.

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29 NASB.....Human view point will eventually choke us into thinking that they may not be irrevocable or salvation may not be a gift.

The cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Mark 13:13


No explanation required.
JLB

I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.

If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?

What's the context in Mk 13:13?

 

[gr8grace3]

Paul is talking about those who ever learn, yet never experience the truth of what they are learning.

Learning and learning and learning...

Hearer's and not doer's of the word.

They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

The can preach a good sermon, yet in the own life they hold the truth in unrighteousness.


JLB

For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These verses are not about believers who are studying the word. Paul encourages Timothy and applauds Timothy for His Diligent study.

The silly or weak woman(anyone who does not have doctrine in their soul) is led away and She is always learning...........false doctrine and evil. And never able to come to the truth.

 

[JLB]

Because Hebrews 3 is not the only chapter in the entirety of the book. It's telling a story. Hebrews 3 is speaking of the same Jews in Hebrews 11.

The promise wasn't just land, it was also family. (Heb 6:13-15 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”d 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.)

I thought you were knowledgeable on the blood of Christ? (Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.)

We are not holy because of (our) works, we are made holy through the cross and the works of Jesus. (Heb 10:8-10 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)

Jesus died for past/present/future sins. (Heb 10:11:14 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.)

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

 

[JLB]

I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.

If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?

What's the context in Mk 13:13?

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

 

[JLB]

I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.

If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?

What's the context in Mk 13:13?

Yes that is my position.

The effort is to believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29


Remember what we learned from Luke 8 -

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Of course not. My first feelings were a mixture of fear and relief. I was living pretty bad, playing around with a lot of girls. Then I was headed for death, literally. I was about to have an accident at 70 MPH on the highway, and reached out to the Lord. And here I am! During the 4 months on my back recovering, I had much time to reflect upon what happened. I knew that the Lord saved me. I just knew it. So got serious about living for the Lord.



Fair enough. I have a sneaking suspicion that all men are born with their names written in the book of life. For He died for all, and is not willing that any should perish. Then, I think that somewhere along the line, names get blotted out.

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels./(KJV)

Psalm 69:28
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous./

I don't think there's any scriptures where it speaks of names being written into the book, only blotted out. We are born saved (because we are not yet at the age of accountability) so at some point people are blotted out. They have a chance to turn to Him, and the Lord knows if they will or not, not being subject to time.

Ok, your scriptures that you wanted me to comment on. Yes brother, I absolutely believe in them, whole heartedly. There will be rank in heaven, for it is written that some shall be called the least in heaven. Some will barely make it in so to speak. Others (many others) will be blotted out. But for some true belief (read trust and relationship!), yes, all one has to do is to believe to be saved.

Do you agree that children who die in the womb or as a young child go to heaven? So in effect, we are born saved and do lose it at some point. Do you think this speculation holds water?

I believe you are right about the book of Life. everybodys name is in the book, and if one has never put their faith in Christ alone at the end of their life, their name is blotted out.

Yes, anyone who does not have the mental capacity to recognize they need a Savior, will be in heaven. He condemned all on the account of one mans sin, To make all savable. He imputed Sin to us He can impute salvation to the one who does not have the mental capacity to understand their condition and Savior.

11“Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” Jonah 4:11 NASB

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes that is my position.

The effort is to believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29


Remember what we learned from Luke 8 -

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

What if that is all we do, believe. Will we still be saved?

 

[chessman]

. If you start with a plant, however, somebody else has done the work of establishing a root system for you.
Sound familiar?

No. Not even remotely.

That's because you're not familiar with the logic of The Word and The Spirit (moisture) in every true believer. You made up the phrase "seeded plant".

There are things called seeds and there are things called plants. And there are things called roots. And there is a thing called heaven's rain (His moisture). They are not the same things.

Isaiah 55:10-11 (LEB) For just as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,and they do not return there except they have watered the earth thoroughly and cause it to bring forth and sprout,and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall be my word that goes out from my mouth.It shall not return to me without success,but shall accomplish what I desire and be successful in the thing for which I sent it.
​

Jesus was obviously pointing out their hypocrisy in not knowing the passage above.

Matthew 15:7-9, 12-13 Hypocrites! Isaiah correctly prophesied about you saying, ‘This people honors me with their lips,but their heart is far, far away from me, and they worship me in vain,teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” ... Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” And he answered and said, “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

Luke 8:11 (LEB) Now the parable means this: the seed is the word of God,

John 1:14 (LEB) And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.
​

Plain enough. But if the Pharisees had been familiar with The Words given to Isaiah, they'd have seen His point:

As told to the Pharisees:

Luke 8:6 (LEB) And other seed fell on the rock, and when it came up, it withered, [why?] because it did not have moisture.
​

As interpreted to the disciple:

Luke 8:13 (LEB) And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
​

You do realize that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, right? “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. If the Sower is The Father (and He is), He's bright enough to know that plants don't grow on rocks. Rocks, in agriculture, are a stumbling block, though.

As recognized by Paul post-Easter (formerly Saul, a Pharisee):

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For indeed, Jews ask for sign miracles and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a cause for stumbling, but to the Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
​

As recognized by John, post-Easter:

John 7:38-39 (LEB) Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 4:14 (LEB) But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

Isaiah 58:11 (LEB) And Yahweh will lead you continually, and satisfy your soul in a barren land,and he will strengthen your bones,and you shall be like a well-watered garden,and like a spring of water whose water does not fail.

​

 

[Eugene]

Are any here a son of God? Some attempt to earn this position with our Father.
1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When do we become unborn, forgotten by our Father, and cast away we which He foreknew? Elijah thought he was the only one left in Rom 11:3 Lord, . . . I am left alone
Rom 11:1 Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. . . .
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

 

[JLB]

What if that is all we do, believe. Will we still be saved?

What else do you see in Jesus teaching that is required?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Are any here a son of God? Some attempt to earn this position with our Father.
1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When do we become unborn, forgotten by our Father, and cast away we which He foreknew? Elijah thought he was the only one left in Rom 11:3 Lord, . . . I am left alone
Rom 11:1 Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. . . .
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Never!

He will never leave you nor forsake you.

You have to forsake Him.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Correct, we can depart from God, but the Holy Spirit does not depart from us.

Notice that other translations say..
1. turn away
2. fall away
3. forsake

It's speaking specifically about the Jews who depart from God, not God departing from us.
The Holy Spirit will never leave our body because of our faithlessness.
Instead, he will convict us like he did Abraham, that's why Abraham succeeded.

2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

If you believe we forsake God and God also forsakes us, then why Heb 13:5?

 

[gr8grace3]

Never!

He will never leave you nor forsake you.

You have to forsake Him.


JLB

Only then will He leave you and forsake you? So it really isn't "never"

 

[Eugene]

There's the answer right in the verse you quoted -

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


We are saved, which means we are children of God.

We will continue to be children of God, if we continue stedfast until the end, whereby we will hear these words -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

Until you yourself hear these words from Jesus, as you stand before Him on that Day, then you are in the process of Hoping for the reality of Salvation to be literally manifested in your life.

If you still have faith for salvation, the you have the substance of what you are hoping for, and the evidence of what is not seen.


I hope you can see the difference.

I will explain further, with more scriptures if you don't.

Thanks JLB

Can I take your answer to say you are not a son of God? Most translations do use the word "Children" of God. As a child does that mean you can no longer be a son, but a daughter instead? And then in the scripture below do you see any difference in the embolden words below "Now," and "When."

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Edward]

I believe you are right about the book of Life. everybodys name is in the book, and if one has never put their faith in Christ alone at the end of their life, their name is blotted out.

Yes, anyone who does not have the mental capacity to recognize they need a Savior, will be in heaven. He condemned all on the account of one mans sin, To make all savable. He imputed Sin to us He can impute salvation to the one who does not have the mental capacity to understand their condition and Savior.

11“Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” Jonah 4:11 NASB

Yep, that's where I'm at on it. And if this is so, then OSAS is not true.

Belief sure does have a lot to do with it. But I did a word study on the word belief and it seems to be more than simply knowing that there is a God up there. It speaks of putting your trust into God, which would affect ones walk, would it not?

 

[Edward]

Only then will He leave you and forsake you? So it really isn't "never"

I don't think that's an accurate statement/question. That's sort of like saying there could be a one sided friendship, where one is friends with the other, but not the other way. A friendship involves a relationship, trust is a two way street.

Can you be friends with someone who is not your friend? They can trust you, but you can't trust them? I don't think so.

 

[DRS81]

Belief sure does have a lot to do with it. But I did a word study on the word belief and it seems to be more than simply knowing that there is a God up there. It speaks of putting your trust into God, which would affect ones walk, would it not?

And that's what the book of Hebrews is speaking of, trust. It's not speaking of the holy spirit departing you, it's rather speaking of Jews departing the holy spirit. There is a big difference. The Jews had trust issues, but God does not forsake us just because we have trust issues. No, the holy spirit convicts and helps us. That's why Abraham inherited the land.