Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[gr8grace3]

Yep, that's where I'm at on it. And if this is so, then OSAS is not true.

Belief sure does have a lot to do with it. But I did a word study on the word belief and it seems to be more than simply knowing that there is a God up there. It speaks of putting your trust into God, which would affect ones walk, would it not?

If what is so, then eternal security is not true? OSAS is usually coming from a reformed theology perspective also, and I do not agree with the way OSAS is defended from a reformed perspective.

Belief has everything to do with it. Belief on the Lord Jesus Christ and his work on the Cross. Tons of people believe in God, even the demons believe. They haven't put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Eugene]

Never!

He will never leave you nor forsake you.

You have to forsake Him.

JLB

Oh, and then He will cast you away, erase your name from the book of life, forget His promise I will in no wise (Is forsaking included?) cast out and possibly say depart from Me; I never knew you? Is our Father forgetful also?

 

[gr8grace3]

I don't think that's an accurate statement/question. That's sort of like saying there could be a one sided friendship, where one is friends with the other, but not the other way. A friendship involves a relationship, trust is a two way street.

Can you be friends with someone who is not your friend? They can trust you, but you can't trust them? I don't think so.

Is God human?

He will NEVER forsake you.......He will though, if you forsake Him First. The statement is laughable.

Have you ever had a TRUE friend? Even a true human friend has a hard time forsaking us. A true friend stands through the thick and thin.

That is the difference from human view point to divine view point. God Is your friend because of who and what He is, not because of who and what we are. That is a true and Perfect friend.

He will NEVER forsake us. Never is Never. And it is because of His character and Nature.

 

[FreeGrace]

It all about salvation!

What they used to believe is Jesus.

Jesus is Salvation.

No more Jesus, no more Salvation.

It's not complicated.

Maybe you believe another Gospel that doesn't involve believing in Jesus.

If that's what you believe then I can see why you are resisting His message here in Luke 8.


JLB

Please read post #1208 and if you disagree, please explain why. This seems to be just a one way conversation. I've interacted with your posts, and you've ignored mine. That's not how to have a discussion.

None of your comments here are relevant. Jesus was clear about what He was talking about. Those who believe for a while obviously cease believing. And Jesus called that "falling away", referring to the fact that they stopped believing.

Again, please read post #1208 and explain why you disagree with any of it.

 

[FreeGrace]

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)


And here is my response to what you're going to say next about the passage I just quoted:

"The words were plain and clear before you clouded it up with your interpretation."

I didn't have to interpret anything. Just point out what was actually said. It is clear from v.22 that in order for God to present believers before Him "holy and blameless", we MUST continue int he faith. This is a conditional clause. That's what we use the "if" for. If this, then that. If…we continue in the faith, then God WILL present us before Him holy and blameless.

The point is, I'm told by OSAS that I have to have faith to be saved so that I won't be guilty of trying to earn my salvation through works, but then OSAS tells me that if I have to continue to have faith to be saved I'm now guilty of trying to earn my salvation through works.

Please read post #1208 and explain why you disagree with anything there that you disagree with. Thanks. Seems your view of salvation isn't much more than treating salvation like a coin, that can be lost or returned. It's so much more than that. Which #1208 discusses.

The Father, but we know from the whole counsel of the scriptures that the believer can disown the Father and walk away from the Father's inheritance on his own through indifference and/or outright contempt for that inheritance.

Now your conflating differing contexts. The prodigal son began as a son to the father, and repented and confessed, which restored fellowship with the father.

Jesus was clear about who is holding who. There is no Scripture that teaches that God will send any of His children to the lake of fire. Zero.

 

[FreeGrace]

Stop believing and you will stop receiving what believing grants to the believer.

The problem with your view is that it seems you view salvation as some kind of on-going reception, like a running faucet or something. It's a done deal at the moment of faith. Jn 5:24 says so.

Believe for a while - saved for a while.

The problem with your view is that there are no verses that explicitly say that one is saved ONLY as long as one believes. It's a view that cannot be found in Scripture.

The aorist tense is used in reference to saving faith in many passages. There is no concept of being saved only as long as one believes.

In fact, the "gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", or unrepentable. Do you know what that means?

Believe to the end - saved to the end.

Please provide a verse that supports that idea.

 

[FreeGrace]

The work is believing.


The same work of believing that caused you to be saved, is the same work of continuing to believe that will continue to save you.


JLB

Sorry, but faith is not a work, as Paul explicitly explained in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Jesus was speaking "tongue-in-cheek" in Jn 6:29. He was answering the question of those who thought they needed to work for salvation. In fact, their question was based on the idea of works. So Jesus used their word to show that works aren't involved in salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

So indirectly you are meaning that it doesn't matter whether a person prays, reads bible or fellowship and he is saved only because he hath believed in Christ. So doesn't matter if he skips prayers, bible reading and fellowship and start concentrating in his own worldly pleasures and he won't be cast out as long as he hath faith in Jesus Christ but doesn't involve in any spiritual exercises like prayer, bible-reading and fellowship

You're putting erroneous words in my mouth. I never said it "doesn't matter". We are commanded to pray, read Scripture and fellowship with believers. But NOT for salvation. That was my point, but it seems you're not wanting to get it.

I have no insinuation. I'm just throwing an example to you. What if a person who believes in Christ Jesus but doesn't do any of the things like prayers, fellowship and bible-reading. Will he go to heaven? If you say he will go to heaven then you are stating that prayers, bible-reading, fellowship are just options and not necessity.

Correct, not a necessity for getting into heaven. Why do you think one needs these things to get to heaven? Aren't you trusting solely in the finished work of Christ to save you???????????

Man can just believe in Christ and live a happy wordly life earning money and earning money and earning money?????

I never said anything about being an unfaithful or disobedient child of God and living a "happy worldly life". It seems you haven't read my posts very carefully. I've posted a great deal about God's dicipline for His errant children. They don't live happily ever after. They may not show it on the outside, and you may erroneously think they are, but don't kid yourself, God knows PERFECTLY how to discipline His children. That's what all the warning passages are about. They aren't passages to take lightly. They are NOT about loss of salvation, but are about loss of blessing and reward. Can a believer truly be happy in this life without God's blessings? Absolutely not. They may put on a "happy face", but there is no doubt that inside they're miserable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great. Now the parable of the sower isn't even about salvation anymore. Where does this deceitful redefining stop?

Now??? It never was about salvation. It was always about fruit production, not salvation. But sadly there aren't very many pastors out there rightly dividing the Word of Truth. In 3 of the 4 soils there were plants that germinated from the seed. Do you know what that signifies? New life. Salvation. Soils 2-4 are all saved, but only #4 produced fruit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, well of course not. Planting the seed is called salvation. Unplanting the seed can't possibly be called losing salvation.

Where did you find anyone "unplanting" the seed?? Or did you just make that up for emphasis? Let's stick with what the Word actually says.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

Once again you've ignored my post. What in it are you afraid of?

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.
If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?
What's the context in Mk 13:13?

Yes that is my position.

The effort is to believe.[/QUOTE]
Except there is no effort to believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Tongue-in-cheek response, given their question to Him.

Remember what we learned from Luke 8 -

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.JLB

That's not taught in Lue 8 or anywhere else. And again you've ignore post 1208. Must be something there that you are unable to face or answer.

 

[DRS81]

That's what all the warning passages are about. They aren't passages to take lightly. They are NOT about loss of salvation, but are about loss of blessing and reward.

I've been trying to tell people this, but maybe they'll listen to you. Good posts FreeGrace.

 

[JLB]

Oh, and then He will cast you away, erase your name from the book of life, forget His promise I will in no wise (Is forsaking included?) cast out and possibly say depart from Me; I never knew you? Is our Father forgetful also?

I posted this:
I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.
If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?
What's the context in Mk 13:13?


The effort is to believe.

Except there is no effort to believe.


Tongue-in-cheek response, given their question to Him.


That's not taught in Lue 8 or anywhere else. And again you've ignore post 1208. Must be something there that you are unable to face or answer.[/QUOTE]

You been answered many times with many scriptures.

You think by trying to find some loophole in the word of God, that it will somehow mean what you want it to mean.

Post 1208 Freegrace said

Jesus gives us a wonderful understanding of the security of God the Father, in John 10:28-29, about the fact that no one can snatch us from His hand. Yet, some here argue that Luke 8:13 means that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. By falling away from the salvation that is obtained through that faith. Yet, that is an assumption from eisegesis, not proper exegesis. The falling away refers to falling away from belief, not salvation.

Such a view demonstrates a failure of faith in God to keep us saved. In fact, Eph 4:30 says that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If one can lose their salvation, where is the verse that teaches that we break this seal if we cease to believe? It doesn't exist.

To prove that a believer can lose their salvation, there needs to be specifically explicit verses that say so, or that the seal can be broken. Or that God will send one of His children (Jn 1:12) to the lake of fire.

As it is, I've only seen assumptions about verses, that do not say that we can lose salvation.

Jn 1:12 tells us that we receive the right to become the children of God when we believe. Where is it stated that right right is removed? No where.

1 Tim 1:16 tells us that we receive eternal life when we believe.

Believe = receive.

Where are the verses that tell us that God takes back any of His gifts? They don't exist.

In fact, Rom 11:29 is very clear: the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

KJV says "without repentance". NASB says irrevocable. Means the same thing.
ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

IOW, God does not change His mind about the gifts and calling He gives.

in order for God to change His mind about the gift of eternal life that is given the moment one believes, He would have to be "repentant" of giving that gift. Yet, Rom 11:29 refutes that idea completely.

Believe = receive

Believe for a while = receive for a while.

If you deny Him, He will deny you.


"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-11



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I've been trying to tell people this, but maybe they'll listen to you. Good posts FreeGrace.

Its what gets lost for the believer who is forever trying to maintain or the unbeliever trying to gain salvation or maintain the one they think they have. Losing out on the rewards,blessings and rank Christ has for them.

Salvation has to be settled in the mind of the believer before they can grow Spiritually and gain rank,blessings,crowns. The motivation has to be from the Position we have in Christ, if we do not believe in the position we have in Christ, we are forever trying to do the work that Only Christ can and did do.

 

[gr8grace3]

I've been trying to tell people this, but maybe they'll listen to you. Good posts FreeGrace.

And I agree, they have been some Great posts.

 

[Eugene]

If you deny Him, He will deny you.

He will deny you what?

 

[JLB]

I posted this:
I would appreciate your view of post #1208. Explanation required.
If one must endure to the end to be saved, effort is required to be saved. Is that your position?
What's the context in Mk 13:13?


The effort is to believe.

Except there is no effort to believe.


Tongue-in-cheek response, given their question to Him.


That's not taught in Lue 8 or anywhere else. And again you've ignore post 1208. Must be something there that you are unable to face or answer.[/QUOTE]

Freegrace said -

Jesus wasn't saying that they fell away from salvation. He very clearly said they only believed for a while. They fell away from THEIR FAITH, NOT their salvation.

It is assumptions like this that lead people into error.

They fell away from THEIR FAITH, NOT their salvation.

The faith is what stopped believing.

Their faith is what obtained their salvation.

What they fell away from was their salvation, the very thing that believing obtained for them.


Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.


believe/salvation - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

believe/salvation for a while - when the believing runs out, the substance of the thing hoped for is no longer there and there is no longer any evidence.


No faith = No substance of the thing hoped for.

The substance that the reality of your salvation will be made manifest from is no longer there.


Look what Paul says -

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


The reality of salvation will be "seen" or become reality for us when Jesus returns and says these words at the Resurrection;
Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Until then we have the hope of salvation! We have faith! WE believe!

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


This last generation that will face the coming mark of the beast and the choice to turn away from Christ and worship the beast and take his mark.

If anyone does that, they will be lost and suffer the fate of the devil.


Jesus said it this way -

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Its what gets lost for the believer who is forever trying to maintain or the unbeliever trying to gain salvation or maintain the one they think they have. Losing out on the rewards,blessings and rank Christ has for them.

Salvation has to be settled in the mind of the believer before they can grow Spiritually and gain rank,blessings,crowns. The motivation has to be from the Position we have in Christ, if we do not believe in the position we have in Christ, we are forever trying to do the work that Only Christ can and did do.

Agreed.

 

[DRS81]

Their faith is what obtained their salvation.

Yeah, but you're forgetting it is by His Grace and through our faith. His Grace does not leave us, we can quench it but it does not depart from us.