Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

No, because those who HAVE believed have BECOME a child of God, possessing eternal life. .

You mean like Lucifer?

 

[gr8grace3]

after we have received the knowledge of the truth...

Insulting the Spirit of Grace and trampling the blood of Jesus is clearly done AFTER We have received the knowledge of the truth.


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

JLB

There is going to be a bunch of folks who received the full knowledge of the truth and never swallow it and metabolize it.

Think about it, how can God hold people responsible for rejecting something they did not have full knowledge of?

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Again, you have failed to deal with the fact that once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. Can that be refuted?

It has been refuted countless times in this thread.

You just keep denying what the clear truth of the scriptures say, as if that is going to change them.

The biggest crack in your foundation is the fact that we will be sons of God, at the resurrection, at His Coming.

Now we are sons of God by faith in Him.

We will continue to be sons of God as long as we continue to believe.

What you refuse to deal with, and what you keep ignoring, is the scriptures that pertain to the believer after he believes.

When these scriptures are brought up, you revert back to scriptures that pertain to the INITIAL SALVATION experience.


What we are discussing is scriptures that pertain to the life of the believer after this initial salvation experience.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:19-25

Everyone will see who the sons of God are when Jesus returns, and we will see clearly who and what we are.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:2-7

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28


Salvation will be realized for us at His Coming, until then we have the hope of Salvation. We have faith in Him FOR SALVATION.

Everyone who has this hope PURIFIES HIMSELF...

You have the work of purifying yourself.




JLB

 

[JLB]

There is going to be a bunch of folks who received the full knowledge of the truth and never swallow it and metabolize it.

Think about it, how can God hold people responsible for rejecting something they did not have full knowledge of?

All conjecture and opinion!

No scripture!

 

[FreeGrace]

You mean like Lucifer?

No. Was Lucifer "born again" or "regenerated"? Your question was irrelevant.

Who are born again, or regenerated? Believers only. They become children of God. Jn 1:12. If you can demonstrate from Scripture that Lucifer became a child of God after he was created, you'd have a point. As it is, you don't.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Actually, the Bible never states the opposite, so there is no reason to believe your view.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:3

The responsibility for keeping yourself pure is up to you.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

The responsibility to practice righteousness is up to you.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

The responsibility to walk in the light is up to you.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

All conjecture and opinion!

No scripture!

Sorry JLB

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

There is going to be a bunch of folks who received the full knowledge of the truth and never swallow it and metabolize it.

Think about it, how can God hold people responsible for rejecting something they did not have full knowledge of?

 

[JLB]

No. Was Lucifer "born again" or "regenerated"? Your question was irrelevant.

Who are born again, or regenerated? Believers only. They become children of God. Jn 1:12. If you can demonstrate from Scripture that Lucifer became a child of God after he was created, you'd have a point. As it is, you don't.

Lucifer was a son of God like all the angels.

Was Adam born again or regenerated???

the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38


Adam was created a son of God. Adam was not born again.

Angels were created as sons of God. Angels were not born again.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Of course not. Always look at context. In Rom 12:26, the context is the Second Coming. I have no doubt that when Jesus Christ lands on the Mount of Olives, every Jew will realize that He is the Messiah. At that time, all Israel will be saved. If one doesn't like that explanation, Rom 12:26 refers to the fact that Jesus Christ delivers Israel from all their enemies, who have surrounded Israel in an attempt to wipe them out. The word "saved" refers to physical deliverance, if one doesn't want to accept that all Jews will recognize Christ as the Messiah when He returns.

So, 2 possibilities.

I wasn't referring to Romans. You answered my question with "Of curse not". My point goes to my previous post about understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Israel is the chosen people of God, yet see that not all of them will be saved. Many Christians believe that one only needs to believe and they are saved. However, the old testament Jews believed in God, they saw the miracles that God did, if simply believing in God means one is saved then these OT Jews were saved, yet we see that many were cast of and lost. They were in a covenant with God as His chosen people yet as Paul says, they were broken off because of unbelief. It's not that the didn't believe in God, it's that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He would do. So, by the standard of salvation that many Christians judge salvation by, they prove that a saved person can be lost.

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

There is going to be a bunch of folks who received the full knowledge of the truth and never swallow it and metabolize it.

Think about it, how can God hold people responsible for rejecting something they did not have full knowledge of?

This is a reference to salvation and is written to believers!

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. - written to those who are believers!
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, written to believers!


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It has been refuted countless times in this thread.

Please cite which post #s that did so. I haven't seen them. Or maybe you could repeat the points about once a child of God always a child of God.

The biggest crack in your foundation is the fact that we will be sons of God, at the resurrection, at His Coming.

How so? Please elaborate, rather than just a one-sentence drive by.

Now we are sons of God by faith in Him.

Yes, it is by faith that we become the sons of God. Which is why your question about Lucifer was off base.

We will continue to be sons of God as long as we continue to believe.

You've yet to post any verse that supports this assumption. Luke 8:13 does NOT address your assumption.

What you refuse to deal with, and what you keep ignoring, is the scriptures that pertain to the believer after he believes.[/QUOTE}
Please show me any verse that deals with loss of salvation. And please, no assumptions.

When these scriptures are brought up, you revert back to scriptures that pertain to the INITIAL SALVATION experience.

Please show me any verse where God warns of removing eternal life from any of His children. I've shown you the verses about His discipline towards believers who disobey.

What we are discussing is scriptures that pertain to the life of the believer after this initial salvation experience.

Blessing for obedience and reward in eternity, vs discipline in time, and loss of reward in eternity. I, too, have been discussing Scripture that pertains to the life of the believer after initial belief. You haven't refuted my points.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:19-25

So, which words SAY that we can lose our salvation?

Everyone will see who the sons of God are when Jesus returns, and we will see clearly who and what we are.

No argument.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:2-7

Please provide commentary when you quote a verse or passage. I have no idea what your point is here.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Nothing here about loss of salvation. btw, Christ will appear a second time even for those who aren't eagerly waiting for Him.

Salvation will be realized for us at His Coming, until then we have the hope of Salvation. We have faith in Him FOR SALVATION.

Jesus said it was immediate upon faith. Jn 5:24.

Everyone who has this hope PURIFIES HIMSELF...

You have the work of purifying yourself. JLB

This refers to the process of experiential sanctification (Phil 2:12). God gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit so that we can do that, with His help. I'm sure you're familiar with the commands to be filled (Eph 5:18) and walk by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). That's how we grow spiritually.

OTOH, when we (believers) grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, we aren't purifying ourselves.

By your comment here seems to suggest that we are saving ourselves, if you think to "purify yourself" makes you qualified to enter heaven. That would be a grievous error.

 

[FreeGrace]

I wasn't referring to Romans. You answered my question with "Of curse not". My point goes to my previous post about understanding the Biblical doctrine of election. Israel is the chosen people of God, yet see that not all of them will be saved.

The election of Israel is just one of 6 categories of election. The doctrine is deeper than that. Even Judas was chosen (elected) by Jesus, yet he never believed.

Many Christians believe that one only needs to believe and they are saved.

Because the Bible actually says so. Check Paul's answer to the jailer's question:
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Nothing about lifestyle.

However, the old testament Jews believed in God, they saw the miracles that God did, if simply believing in God means one is saved then these OT Jews were saved, yet we see that many were cast of and lost.

Please provide specific Scripture so I can understand the context. Thanks.

They were in a covenant with God as His chosen people yet as Paul says, they were broken off because of unbelief.

And that's the key. You mentioned Jews who believed but were disobedient. Here, Paul notes those who never believed.

It's not that the didn't believe in God, it's that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He would do. So, by the standard of salvation that many Christians judge salvation by, they prove that a saved person can be lost.

Doesn't prove a thing. And I don't take what "many Christians" judge salvation by. I look to Scripture, for what it SAYS, and what it DOESN'T say.

And it doesn't say anything about loss of salvaton. Nothing at all.

 

[gr8grace3]

This is a reference to salvation and is written to believers!

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, - written to those who have this privilege as believers!
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. - written to those who are believers!
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, written to believers!


JLB

Nope vs26 is written to any unbeliever, a nasty person or a person sitting in their pew or working for their salvation, going to church, doing missions,living a nice moral life and have heard the Gospel preached 10000 times and still reject Christ alone as their Savior. The Spirit makes it understandable to them, and they reject it.

 

[Butch5]

The election of Israel is just one of 6 categories of election. The doctrine is deeper than that. Even Judas was chosen (elected) by Jesus, yet he never believed.

No, there are not 6 categories. The word simply means to chose. What is being chosen is determined by context.

Judas was chosen for a purpose, that is not the definition of the doctrine of election. Also, your statement that he didn't believe is speculation.

Because the Bible actually says so. Check Paul's answer to the jailer's question:
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Nothing about lifestyle.

A single verse of Scripture doesn't determine salvation. To say, "nothing about lifestyle" is an argument from silence. In that passage we only know what Luke chose to record.

Please provide specific Scripture so I can understand the context. Thanks.

No doubt they believed in God,

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. (Exo 20:18-22 KJV)




They entered into covenant with the Lord,

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. (Exo 24:6-7 KJV)

They were cast off.

35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die. (Num 14:35 KJV)

According to Paul they did not enter God's rest which he says remains for the believer.

And that's the key. You mentioned Jews who believed but were disobedient. Here, Paul notes those who never believed.

He's talking about them not accepting Christ as the Messiah, yet according to many Christians one is saved by believing in God and they did believe in God

Doesn't prove a thing. And I don't take what "many Christians" judge salvation by. I look to Scripture, for what it SAYS, and what it DOESN'T say.

And it doesn't say anything about loss of salvaton. Nothing at all.

Aren't you saying the same thing, that one only needs to believe and he is saved?

Actually, the Scriptures say much about losing salvation if one takes at face value.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nope vs26 is written to any unbeliever, a nasty person or a person sitting in their pew or working for their salvation, going to church, doing missions,living a nice moral life and have heard the Gospel preached 10000 times and still reject Christ alone as their Savior. The Spirit makes it understandable to them, and they reject it.

Wrong. As proven by the following verse in that same chapter:
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Now, the beginning of the verse notes a believer who is described as "just", or justified, and shall live by faith.

In v.38b, we read "if he withdraw". The KJV is wrong. 38b refers back to 38a. The NASB has it according to the original Greek: " But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

The verse teaches us that if the justified one shrinks back, or withdraws, God will have no pleasure in him.

Still nothing about loss of salvation. But lots about a Father displeased with His errant son. As I've pointed out all along.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, there are not 6 categories. The word simply means to chose. What is being chosen is determined by context.

There are 6. Christ is described as the Elect One. The nation of Israel was chosen. Angels are elect (1 Tim 5:23). NT believers are elect. The 12 disciples were chosen (elect), yet Judas was an unbeliever. And Paul was chosen to minister to Gentiles. That's 6.

Judas was chosen for a purpose, that is not the definition of the doctrine of election. Also, your statement that he didn't believe is speculation.

Because it is the same Greek word for election in all the other passages, it is an election. All 12 were elected as disciples.

Please provide some evidence that Judas ever believed.

A single verse of Scripture doesn't determine salvation.

Any single verse in Scripture is TRUTH. Believe it.

To say, "nothing about lifestyle" is an argument from silence. In that passage we only know what Luke chose to record.

Sometimes an argument from silence can be deafening. ;)

No doubt they believed in God,

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. (Exo 20:18-22 KJV)

I know they believed because Paul indicated so, in 1 Cor 10:1-4.

According to Paul they did not enter God's rest which he says remains for the believer.

God's rest was blessing, not salvation. Remember that the Israelites had to work for the promised land, where the rest was. We don't work for salvation. But the Pharisees thought they did.

He's talking about them not accepting Christ as the Messiah, yet according to many Christians one is saved by believing in God and they did believe in God

And those "many" Christians are wrong. Believing in God doesn't save anyone. It's faith in Christ. Gospel of John says it best and the most often.

Aren't you saying the same thing, that one only needs to believe and he is saved?

Yes, that it what Scripture teaches.

Actually, the Scriptures say much about losing salvation if one takes at face value.

Please show me any verse that plainly says so. Your comment about "face value" is quite vague. Those who come to Scripture with a pre-conceived bias always think what they believe is clearly "face value".

The idea of loss of salvation is so important, if true, that Scripture would really make it clear so there's no doubt about it.

I find nothing about warning that one is saved only as long as one believes. That is a pre-conceived bias that some bring to Scripture. They find what they want to find. But it isn't there.

 

[JLB]

Nope vs26 is written to any unbeliever, a nasty person or a person sitting in their pew or working for their salvation, going to church, doing missions,living a nice moral life and have heard the Gospel preached 10000 times and still reject Christ alone as their Savior. The Spirit makes it understandable to them, and they reject it.

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:19-26

We in verse 26 represents saved people!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That idea contradicts many verses that teach that eternal life is received when one believes in Christ.

You do indeed receive eternal life when you first believe. An eternal life that will be delivered in it's fullness at the Judgment, but which we do taste of now in this life. And an eternal life that is conditioned on continuing in the faith, to the very end, that secured it for you in the first place.

Having it (partially) now doesn't mean there can't be any conditions attached to it. The condition that is not attached to it is having to be justified through perfect works of the law. But the condition that is attached to it is that you continue in the faith to the very end that you started out with. But somehow along the line doing that continued believing got qualified as being among Paul's works that can not justify. Amazing. Simply amazing.

It's not about how we live our lives, but what Christ did for us, which we must accept by faith.

And you think that somehow non-OSAS doesn't believe that? The part you're not getting is the 'accept by faith' part about non-OSAS. You have to stay in the same faith to the very end which secured what Christ did for you apart from any merit of your own works to continue to reap the benefit of what Christ did for you apart from your own works. OSAS rejects this because it thinks that continuing in faith is somehow different from starting out in that very same faith.

How did so many in the church get deceived by this ridiculously illogical doctrine about faith and works that says faith is not a work, but continuing in that very same faith is? I had to trust Christ to get saved. But if I continue to have faith and trust Christ to be saved it is now somehow a damnable work of the law that Paul said can not justify? Chapter and verse, somebody, please! No opinions. I want chapter and verse!

The verse in Hebrews refers to the command to be Christ-like, the main point of all the epistles. Unless believers are Christ-like, no one else will "see the Lord". When the world cannot "see Christ" in believers, we have failed to comply with Scripture.

"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. " (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)

I suggest the same thing for you ("Now be careful. Don't be adding to what it actually says."). The "no one" does not refer back to the addressees. It refers to those around us.

Of course it refers back to the very audience it was written to. Without adding words it plainly says to pursue the sanctification (set apartness--the forgiven, blameless, obedient, covered by the blood life) without which no one will see the Lord. No reason to cast doubt on the plain words, or add 'in you' to the passage. It says what it says. And it fits exactly with the context.

How can the world "see Christ"? Only when believers are Christ-like.

If that was the context of the passage you'd have some footing for your argument. But as it is, the context is staying in the grace of God and realizing the inheritance. (Look out--here comes a convenient redefining of 'birth right' or inheritance. We can't trust anything we read with our eyes in the Bible anymore! It 'really' means something else.)

Paul said this: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. Gal 4:19

Unless and until believers become Christ-like (Christ formed in us), no one will see the Lord.

We "see the Lord" when believers are being Christ-like.

You have changed the very meaning of Heb 12:14.

OSAS defies the context, redefines 'birth right', and adds words to the passage to defend it as not being non-OSAS. I am truly sick of this scriptural license that is overtaking the church. Between this and the prosperity gospel (the false one, not the real one) I honestly believe we are witnessing the end of Christianity--the day when truth shall be utterly cast down before the return of Christ. "Don't worry. God will still save those who don't believe anymore and deny Christ. And surely don't worry about some so-called 'Mark of the Beast' and having your head cut off. You'll still be saved if you take the mark and save your hide instead of holding fast the name of Christ. Just as long as you 'got saved' sometime before that."

 

[Eugene]

For those who believe that salvation cannot be lost, what do you do with Israel? Will every single Jew be saved, no mater what?

Hi Butch, I believe we would have to ascertain as to whether they ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is consequence for sin, but did all that died in the desert with Moses end up lost? Were any of them in the book of life? What of Moses, do you think he is cast off due to his sin?

Psa 94:14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Psa 94:15 But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
Psa 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?
Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
Psa 94:18 When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.

 

[JLB]

Free grace said -

When the Bible speaks of "unbelievers", it means those who have never believed.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

These believe for a WHILE, then fall away.

Make no mistake, THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!

They fall away BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!

These believed for time period then later on they stop believing, and fell away.

They are now unbelievers, BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!


JLB