Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I believe we would have to ascertain as to whether they ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is consequence for sin, but did all that died in the desert with Moses end up lost? Were any of them in the book of life? What of Moses, do you think he is cast off due to his sin?

Psa 94:14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Psa 94:15 But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
Psa 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?
Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
Psa 94:18 When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.

Those in the desert believed in and were in covenant with God. Some were cast out of that covenant.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the quote from David.

 

[chessman]

Those in the desert believed in and were in covenant with God. Some were cast out of that covenant.
.

By 'some' you simply must include Moses if you want to be true to the text here. Moses didn't enter either. Are you prepared to argue to us that you think Hebrews is about Moses' de-salvation?

The reason you're even mentioning Heb 3-4, it seems to me, is due to the lack of any clear Scripture that teaches loss of salvation.

 

[Butch5]

There are 6. Christ is described as the Elect One. The nation of Israel was chosen. Angels are elect (1 Tim 5:23). NT believers are elect. The 12 disciples were chosen (elect), yet Judas was an unbeliever. And Paul was chosen to minister to Gentiles. That's 6.

The word simply means chosen, lot of things are chosen for lots of reasons. Just because the would chosen is used in a sentence doesn't mean it has to do with the doctrine of election. The doctrine of election is God's choosing a people for Himself.

Because it is the same Greek word for election in all the other passages, it is an election. All 12 were elected as disciples.

As I said, the word simply means chosen. Being chosen to be president is not the same thing as being chosen to be mayor even though both are chosen. Being chosen to be a disciple doesn't mean being chosen to be saved.

Please provide some evidence that Judas ever believed.

There's no need to. You said Judas didn't believe yet there is nothing in the Scriptures that states that. That statement is speculation.
However, according to Peter he did believe.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Joh 6:67-70 KJV)

It's kind of hard to believe the Judas didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. After all he witnessed, the feeding of the 4 and 5 thousand, Jesus walking on the water, the water to wine and other miracles.

Any single verse in Scripture is TRUTH. Believe it.

It is, however, when the interpretation of that verse contradicts other Scripture that interpretation is not truth.

Sometimes an argument from silence can be deafening. ;)

The problem is that it's a logical fallacy and cannot be defended.

God's rest was blessing, not salvation. Remember that the Israelites had to work for the promised land, where the rest was. We don't work for salvation. But the Pharisees thought they did.

According to Paul God's rest is the Sabbath rest that awaits the people of God, that's the kingdom, that's believers entering the Promised Land.

The idea that believers don't work towards salvation is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching regarding the Judaizers


And those "many" Christians are wrong. Believing in God doesn't save anyone. It's faith in Christ. Gospel of John says it best and the most often.

Yes, that it what Scripture teaches.

It's not what the Scriptures teach, it what Luther taught. However, since you agree with that you've proven that salvation can be lost because those in the OT believed and yet some were lost.

Please show me any verse that plainly says so. Your comment about "face value" is quite vague. Those who come to Scripture with a pre-conceived bias always think what they believe is clearly "face value".

Sure, but I doubt you'll acknowledge it. For instance, if I said, "If you come to my house I'll give you $10" and you didn't come would expect me to be obligated to give you $10?

The idea of loss of salvation is so important, if true, that Scripture would really make it clear so there's no doubt about it.

Scripture does make ti clear, unless one doesn't want to see it.

I find nothing about warning that one is saved only as long as one believes. That is a pre-conceived bias that some bring to Scripture. They find what they want to find. But it isn't there.

Well, if you look at the Greek text it's pretty clear, it's clear in the the English also. The promise is to the one who believes, believes, is present tense. You won't find any Scriptures that say the promise is to the one who used to believe.

 

[Eugene]

Those in the desert believed in and were in covenant with God. Some were cast out of that covenant.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the quote from David.

To me that quote from David just showed the confidence God's people can have in God's word of safety toward them. David did things there was no sacrifice for and yet was know as the man after God's own heart and as prophesied in Acts 13:22 would fulfill all God's will. The realization of what he was and had done troubled him, but he knew his security and could simple ask for the joy of his salvation to be returned in Ps 51:12. He never doubted God's promises as to his standing with God, only his state.

Moses had committed a sin unto death for not believing God, For not obeying Moses was not allowed entrance into the promised land of Canaan. Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Deuteronomy 32:50 . . die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people. Do yo think Moses was cast off?

Can we believe that God will never forsake us? Oh, but we can leave Him huh? Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I'll leave off here for the moment.

 

[Butch5]

By 'some' you simply must include Moses if you want to be true to the text here. Moses didn't enter either. Are you prepared to argue to us that you think Hebrews is about Moses' de-salvation?

The reason you're even mentioning Heb 3-4, it seems to me, is due to the lack of any clear Scripture that teaches loss of salvation.

A lack of clear Scripture? Chessman, it's all over the Bible. I've already addressed this with Agua, Moses and Aaron were not part of those that Paul spoke of that provoked God those 10 times. It was those who provoked God those 10 times to whom it was said "they shall not enter my rest."

In the Scriptures there were times when God said things that the Jews didn't understand that were later clarified by the apostles. For instance, when God made the promise of the land to Abraham and his seed, the Jews thought it was them because they were the physical seed of Abraham. However, Paul clarifies their misunderstanding in Galatians 3 when he says,

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Paul says that the Seed was Christ. I believe he's doing the same thing in Hebrews, the Jews thought not entering God's rest was their conditional inheritance of the promised land and Paul indicates that entering God's rest was not the Jews inheritance of the land but rather the eternal inheritance of the land

 

[Butch5]

To me that quote from David just showed the confidence God's people can have in God's word of safety toward them. David did things there was no sacrifice for and yet was know as the man after God's own heart and as prophesied in Acts 13:22 would fulfill all God's will. The realization of what he was and had done troubled him, but he knew his security and could simple ask for the joy of his salvation to be returned in Ps 51:12. He never doubted God's promises as to his standing with God, only his state.

Moses had committed a sin unto death for not believing God, For not obeying Moses was not allowed entrance into the promised land of Canaan. Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Deuteronomy 32:50 . . die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people. Do yo think Moses was cast off?

Can we believe that God will never forsake us? Oh, but we can leave Him huh? Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I'll leave off here for the moment.

If you look at that quote in context you'll find that it is conditional. You bring up David a man after God's own heart. I don't think anyone here is arguing that a believer will be lost. It's those who turn from God that will be lost. There are a boatload of passages that show people can turn from the Lord, theyre the ones that need to be addressed. Pointing out passages that say God will take care of the believer doesn't really address the issue.

 

[Eugene]

It's those who turn from God that will be lost. There are a boatload of passages that show people can turn from the Lord, they're the ones that need to be addressed.

Would you care to address them one at a time; that may be informative. Thanks

 

[Butch5]

Would you care to address them one at a time; that may be informative. Thanks

I don't know if there's any point. I believe it was this thread where I said that logic goes out the window when this subject is discussed. I mean all of the warnings in Scriptures somehow are hypothetical or they don't really mean what they say etc. But just for fun,

if/

conjunction

1. 1.

introducing a conditional clause.

synonyms:


on (the) condition that, provided (that), providing (that), presuming (that), supposing (that), assuming (that), as long as, given that, in the event that

"if the rain holds out, we can walk"

2. 2.

despite the possibility that; no matter whether.

"if it takes me seven years, I shall do it"


14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Heb 3:14 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace]

You do indeed receive eternal life when you first believe. An eternal life that will be delivered in it's fullness at the Judgment, but which we do taste of now in this life. And an eternal life that is conditioned on continuing in the faith, to the very end, that secured it for you in the first place.

The problem of your view is that there are zero verses that tell us that eternal life is conditioned upon continuing in the faith.

Having it (partially) now doesn't mean there can't be any conditions attached to it.

I believe what Jesus said:
John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (PRESENT TENSE) eternal life, and does not (FUTURE TENSE) come into judgment, but has passed out (PAST TENSE) of death into life.

We have it NOW. Not partially. There are no verses that teach that we have eternal life only partially now.

The condition that is

not attached to it is having to be justified through perfect works of the law. But the condition that is attached to it is that you continue in the faith to the very end that you started out with.

There are no verses that teach that.

And you think that somehow non-OSAS doesn't believe that? The part you're not getting is the 'accept by faith' part about non-OSAS. You have to stay in the same faith to the very end which secured what Christ did for you apart from any merit of your own works to continue to reap the benefit of what Christ did for you apart from your own works.

There are no verses that teach continuing faith for eternal life.

OSAS rejects this because it thinks that continuing in faith is somehow different from starting out in that

very same faith.

How did so many in the church get deceived by this ridiculously illogical doctrine about faith and works that says faith is not a work, but continuing in that very same faith is?

Please just show me any verse that tells me that eternal life is conditioned upon continuing faith.

Your view ignores the fact that once a child of God ALWAYS a child of God. That fact refutes your view.

I had to trust Christ to get saved.

And you received eternal life at that moment. And the word "eternal" really means exactly that; eternal. What verse tells you that eternal life can or has been taken away from anyone? There aren't any.

How does one who possesses eternal life end up in the second DEATH???? Not possible.

Why? God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13) and Jesus promised the Holy Spirit who would be with us FOREVER. Your view doesn't make any sense in light of a lot of Scripture, pluse you have no verses that say what you claim.

But if I

continue to have faith and trust Christ to be saved it is now somehow a damnable work of the law that Paul said can not justify? Chapter and verse, somebody, please! No opinions. I want chapter and verse!

No, it's just an error. Please interact with "once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God". Also interact with 2 Tim 2:13 with Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit to be with us FOREVER. Show me where "continuing faith" is required.

Why does the idea of a disobedient child not work for you? The warning passages are for those children, and what they can expect for their disobedience.

Of course it refers back to the very audience it was written to. Without adding words it plainly says to pursue the sanctification (set apartness--the forgiven, blameless, obedient, covered by the blood life) without which no one will see the Lord. No reason to cast doubt on the plain words, or add 'in you' to the passage. It says what it says. And it fits exactly with the context.

That's all been explained. Believers are commanded to be holy and blameless, otherwise no one (else) will see the Lord. Please show me how that cannot be the meaning. Use exegesis, not opinion. Thanks.

If that was the context of the passage you'd have some footing for your argument. But as it is, the context is staying in the grace of God and realizing the inheritance. (Look out--here comes a convenient redefining of 'birth right' or inheritance. We can't trust anything we read with our eyes in the Bible anymore! It 'really' means something else.)

Inheritance can be taken 2 ways, depending upon context. It can mean "get to heaven", or it can mean reward in heaven, which is the meaning throughout Hebrews.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
When the Bible speaks of "unbelievers", it means those who have never believed.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

These believe for a WHILE, then fall away.

Make no mistake, THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!

Did Jesus call them unbelievers? No. In fact, He made clear that one who has believed IS saved (v.12). Those in v.13 believed, and are therefore saved.

They fall away BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!

They fell away from their believing, not their salvation. That is pure eisegesis.

These believed for time period then later on they stop believing, and fell away.

They are now unbelievers, BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER BELIEVE!
JLB

Please show me any passage where one who has believed and BECOME a child of God becomes an UNchild of God.

If you cannot do that, your view is just an opinion, and wrong at that.

Seems all the non-OSASer's treat salvation like some kind of coin that can be lost, misplaced, returned, etc.

News flash. Salvation involves regeneration (new birth), becoming a child of God, and possessing ETERNAL life. None of these things have been described as being able to be lost or forfeited.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't know if there's any point. I believe it was this thread where I said that logic goes out the window when this subject is discussed. I mean all of the warnings in Scriptures somehow are hypothetical or they don't really mean what they say etc.

Why can't you understand that the warning passages are about loss of blessings in time and rewards in eternity?

Especially since none of these passages plainly states that it is eternal life or salvation that can be lost!!

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Heb 3:14 KJV)

Have you looked up the word for "partakers"?? It is metachoi, and means partners. This isn't about salvation, but about fellowship WITH Christ. Same principle as ABIDING in Christ in Jn 15.

 

[FreeGrace]

The word simply means chosen, lot of things are chosen for lots of reasons. Just because the would chosen is used in a sentence doesn't mean it has to do with the doctrine of election. The doctrine of election is God's choosing a people for Himself.

As I said, the word simply means chosen. Being chosen to be president is not the same thing as being chosen to be mayor even though both are chosen. Being chosen to be a disciple doesn't mean being chosen to be saved.

I provided 6 categories of election in Scripture. You may do what you want with them.

There's no need to. You said Judas didn't believe yet there is nothing in the Scriptures that states that. That statement is speculation.
However, according to Peter he did believe.

Really??

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Joh 6:67-70 KJV)

Why do you take this vague statement that he was speaking for all 12? Again, there are a lot of assumptions going on in this forum.

It's kind of hard to believe the Judas didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. After all he witnessed, the feeding of the 4 and 5 thousand, Jesus walking on the water, the water to wine and other miracles.

Seriously? Even the Pharisees saw the miracles and rejected Him as Messiah. In fact, what Jew would have turned in the Messiah? Scholars believe that he was just a dishonest opportunist.

[/QUOTE]It is, however, when the interpretation of that verse contradicts other Scripture that interpretation is not truth.[/QUOTE]
None of my view contradicts Scripture. Loss of salvation does contradict Scripture.

According to Paul God's rest is the Sabbath rest that awaits the people of God, that's the kingdom, that's believers entering the Promised Land.

Or rather, your opinion of what Paul thought.

It's not what the Scriptures teach, it what Luther taught. However, since you agree with that you've proven that salvation can be lost because those in the OT believed and yet some were lost.

I've proven no such thing. Please elaborate as to why and how you think I did.

Sure, but I doubt you'll acknowledge it.

Why do you wrongly judge me?

For instance, if I said, "If you come to my house I'll give you $10" and you didn't come would expect me to be obligated to give you $10?

If I showed up, I would.

Scripture does make ti clear, unless one doesn't want to see it.

To be clear means to state something plainly. So, where is that verse that plainly says that salvation can be lost.

Well, if you look at the Greek text it's pretty clear, it's clear in the the English also. The promise is to the one who believes, believes, is present tense. You won't find any Scriptures that say the promise is to the one who used to believe.

Doesn't have to. Many times "believe" is in the aorist tense, with no consideration for duration. If every use of "believe" was present tense, you might have a point.

 

[Butch5]

Why can't you understand that the warning passages are about loss of blessings in time and rewards in eternity?

Especially since none of these passages plainly states that it is eternal life or salvation that can be lost!!

Where does it say the warnings are about blessings?

Have you looked up the word for "partakers"?? It is metachoi, and means partners. This isn't about salvation, but about fellowship WITH Christ. Same principle as ABIDING in Christ in Jn 15.

So, one has salvation but no fellowship with Christ?

You've just proven my point about logic going out the window when this subject gets discussed.

 

[Eugene]

I don't know if there's any point. I believe it was this thread where I said that logic goes out the window when this subject is discussed. I mean all of the warnings in Scriptures somehow are hypothetical or they don't really mean what they say etc.

That's fine. I normally determine when someone quotes a scripture such as Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, they have either predetermined conclusions from their understanding of it as to exactly what it is to be a "partaker" backed up by supporting scripture, what their "confidence" was at the beginning, and their resolution of being "steadfast" or sure until the "end" of whatever.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Did Jesus call them unbelievers? No. In fact, He made clear that one who has believed IS saved (v.12). Those in v.13 believed, and are therefore saved.

Jesus said they believed for a while...

Those in verse 12, never believed.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

V.12 represents those who hear, but do no believe.

V.13 represents those who believe for a while.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These believe... for a while. Then they fall away from what they believed.

The condition for salvation is explained by Jesus in verse 12. believe and be saved.

Those in verse 13 were saved when they believed.

When they stopped believing, they fell away from the thing they believed.

When they stop believing, they are in a state of UNBELIEF, and become unbelievers.

Unless you can show a scripture that teaches us that an unbeliever is saved, then those who believed for a while were no longer saved.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's fine. I normally determine when someone quotes a scripture such as Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, they have either predetermined conclusions from their understanding of it as to exactly what it is to be a "partaker" backed up by supporting scripture, what their "confidence" was at the beginning, and their resolution of being "steadfast" or sure until the "end" of whatever.

What does it mean to you, to be a partaker of Christ.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

I provided 6 categories of election in Scripture. You may do what you want with them.

You’ve provided 6 instances where the word choose or chosen is used. How is there 6 categories of “to choose”

Really??

Really, there is nothing (to my knowledge) in Scripture that says Judas didn’t believe that Jesus is the Christ

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 Andwe believeand are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Joh 6:67-70 KJV)

Why do you take this vague statement that he was speaking for all 12? Again, there are a lot of assumptions going on in this forum.

A vague statement? Jesus asked the 12, will you go away also, and Peter said we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God. You could argue that Peter is wrong but, that’s really the only argument that could be made against the passage.

Seriously? Even the Pharisees saw the miracles and rejected Him as Messiah. In fact, what Jew would have turned in the Messiah? Scholars believe that he was just a dishonest opportunist.

The Pharisees also didn’t spend three and half years with Jesus as Judas did.

None of my view contradicts Scripture. Loss of salvation does contradict Scripture.

If you say that belief alone is all that is necessary to be saved then your view does contradict Scripture

Or rather, your opinion of what Paul thought.

It’s not my opinion, it’s what Paul said.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9 KJV)

The word rest in this passage is the Greek word translated Sabbath, Sabatismos.

It's not what the Scriptures teach, it what Luther taught. However, since you agree with that you've proven that salvation can be lost because those in the OT believed and yet some were lost.

I've proven no such thing. Please elaborate as to why and how you think I did.

If you say that one only needs to believe in God to be saved and nothing more, we can see that those on the mountain believed in God yet not all of them were saved. The only conclusion I see is that not everyone who believes is God will be saved.

Why do you wrongly judge me?[/quoite]

I was judging, I was giving an opinion.

If I showed up, I would.[/and if you didn’t show up would expect the $10?

Scripture does make ti clear, unless one doesn't want to see it.

To be clear means to state something plainly. So, where is that verse that plainly says that salvation can be lost.

You can look at 1 Tim 5

Doesn't have to. Many times "believe" is in the aorist tense, with no consideration for duration. If every use of "believe" was present tense, you might have a point.

Before you said one passage of Scripture is truth, yet here you want every passage to be in the present tense. The aorist tense has different meanings, however, Just uses the present tense quite often.

 

[Butch5]

That's fine. I normally determine when someone quotes a scripture such as Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, they have either predetermined conclusions from their understanding of it as to exactly what it is to be a "partaker" backed up by supporting scripture, what their "confidence" was at the beginning, and their resolution of being "steadfast" or sure until the "end" of whatever.

See why I said, I don't know if there's any point? All of a sudden were questioning the meanings of everyday words

 

[Eugene]

What does it mean to you, to be a partaker of Christ.


JLB

That heavenly calling of my LORD Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

Really, there is nothing (to my knowledge) in Scripture that says Judas didn'’t believe that Jesus is the Christ.

What would "The son of perdition" indicate?
John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.