Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

What would "The son of perdition" indicate?
John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Son of Destruction. It doesn't mean he didn't believe, he didn't abide.

 

[JLB]

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

This is written to Christians.

This was originally written to the 7 Churches in Asia.

After it became canonized it was intended for all the Churches.

Very similar to what Paul wrote to the Church in Galatia -

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

These words are admonitions to Christians.

The unsaved need to hear the Gospel.

It is saved ones who need to be reminded not to walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does it say the warnings are about blessings?

I didn't say they were about blessings. I said they were about LOSS of blessings. Context determines meaning.

So, one has salvation but no fellowship with Christ?

I think it is quite sad and telling how many believers are unaware of the Biblical position on fellowship. A good start would be 1 John 1.

You've just proven my point about logic going out the window when this subject gets discussed.

If so, how come just this drive-by comment? How about some evidence provided?

 

[Butch5]

I didn't say they were about blessings. I said they were about LOSS of blessings. Context determines meaning.

Where does it say they're about the loss of blessings?

I think it is quite sad and telling how many believers are unaware of the Biblical position on fellowship. A good start would be 1 John 1.

So, one has salvation but no fellowship with Christ?

If so, how come just this drive-by comment? How about some evidence provided?

What need, you've proven my point. How exactly does one have salvation yet no fellowship with Christ? This is what I meant about logic going out the window. This gets absurd. I've had people tell me that those who cast of their faith are saved, people tell me those who follow Satan are saved, and so on, just so that they can claim that salvation can't be lost, it just gets absurd.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said they believed for a while...

And He NEVER said anything about loss of salvation. Your assumption is unfounded. In fact, His point was that those who believe for a while and in time of testing, fall away, do not produce fruit. There is nothing about loss of salvation.

Those in verse 12, never believed.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Clearly, those who have believed ARE saved.

V.12 represents those who hear, but do no believe.

Correct. They are not saved.

V.13 represents those who believe for a while.

And are, therefore, saved. All who believe (even in the aorist tense) are saved.

btw, did you know that Jesus used the aorist tense in v.12 and the present tense in v.13?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Iow, the time of temptation is the reason they quit believing, not quit being saved.

These believe... for a while. Then they fall away from what they believed.

Correct. It does NOT say they fell away from salvation.

The condition for salvation is explained by Jesus in verse 12. believe and be saved.

Those in verse 13 were saved when they believed.

Correct.

When they stopped believing, they fell away from the thing they believed.

False. There is no verse that SAYS this. This is only the opinion of those who reject "once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God".

When they stop believing, they are in a state of UNBELIEF, and become unbelievers.

No, they become apostate, not unbelievers.

Unless you can show a scripture that teaches us that an unbeliever is saved, then those who believed for a while were no longer saved.

Ha! The burden of proof is on your assumption that salvation is based on continuing faith. You haven't proved that yet.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

Let's look at "end" here:
telos

1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be(always of the end of some act or state, but not of the endof a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

What does 1a mean to you: the limit at which a thing ceases to be. Iow, even if faith ceases to be, one is saved.

Your attempt to use verses that don't support your claim about the requirement of on-going faith to save isn't working for you.

There are no verses that teach that.

And you haven't refuted the fact that once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. If you disagree, please point to any verse that says so.

Or that some children of God will end up in the second DEATH, even though they possess eternal LIFE.
How does eternal LIFE end up in the second DEATH.

That isn't a rational view, imho.

 

[Eugene]

Son of Destruction. It doesn't mean he didn't believe, he didn't abide.

Are you saying that Judas was a son of God, metamorphism became prevalent due to lifestyle and he turned into a worm; uh er, son of destruction?

 

[FreeGrace]

You’ve provided 6 instances where the word choose or chosen is used. How is there 6 categories of “to choose”

I never said there were 6 categories of "to choose". You are very.

I did say there are 6 categories of election, and I named them. Can you refute these 6 categories?

Really, there is nothing (to my knowledge) in Scripture that says Judas didn’t believe that Jesus is the Christ

In fact there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he ever believed in Jesus as the Messiah.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And

we believeand are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Joh 6:67-70 KJV)

Please prove that he was speaking for all of them. Can't be done. Peter was part of the inner circle, with James and John. How do you know that he wasn't referring to just them? You don't.

A vague statement? Jesus asked the 12, will you go away also, and Peter said we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God. You could argue that Peter is wrong but, that’s really the only argument that could be made against the passage.

There is nothing definitive to prove that he was speaking for all 12. More likely the inner circle.

The Pharisees also didn’t spend three and half years with Jesus as Judas did.

Doesn't matter one whit. They ALL saw the miracles.

If you say that belief alone is all that is necessary to be saved then your view does contradict Scripture

You've not proven that.

It’s not my opinion, it’s what Paul said.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9 KJV)

The word rest in this passage is the Greek word translated Sabbath, Sabatismos.

First, no scholar knows who wrote Hebrews. There are a number of men put forward, but no consensus at all. So, don't ascribe Hebrews to Paul. Second, the "rest" refers to eternal blessings, not salvation.

Just read ch 11 on faith. Esp v.10, 13, 26 (!), 35 (note "better"), 39.

If you say that one only needs to believe in God to be saved and nothing more, we can see that those on the mountain believed in God yet not all of them were saved.

I never said that believing in God is saving faith. Far from it. Are you reading my posts carefully, or not?

The only conclusion I see is that not everyone who believes is God will be saved.

Of course not. One must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Paul's answer to the jailer's question.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does it say they're about the loss of blessings?

Read the context.

So, one has salvation but no fellowship with Christ?

It is apparent that the concept that the believer needs to be in fellowship with Christ in order to be productive is nearly unknown in evangelicalism. Very sad. 1 Jn 1 is a good start.

What need, you've proven my point. How exactly does one have salvation yet no fellowship with Christ?

I'll use human terms and experiences in order to explain it.

A married couple (husband and bride). The Bible uses such terms in a spiritual sense, so it's a very good analogy.

A married couple have a relationship (they're married), but have no fellowship with each other. Are you aware of the meaning of "estranged" or "alienated"? A married couple can live under the same roof yet be estranged or alienated from each other. The same can be true of the believer with His Lord. Which is why John wrote 1 Jn 1.

This is what I meant about logic going out the window. This gets absurd. I've had people tell me that those who cast of their faith are saved, people tell me those who follow Satan are saved, and so on, just so that they can claim that salvation can't be lost, it just gets absurd.

What is absurd is the claim that one can lose their salvation.

Do you believe that once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God, or not? Please answer.

 

[Butch5]

Are you saying that Judas was a son of God, metamorphism became prevalent due to lifestyle and he turned into a worm; uh er, son of destruction?

I'm saying that I believe he believed that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. He followed Christ to a point and then turned away.

 

[Butch5]

I never said there were 6 categories of "to choose". You are very

.

I did say there are 6 categories of election, and I named them. Can you refute these 6 categories?

The word for election is “ekletos” and it means to choose. You said there were 6 categories.

In fact there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he ever believed in Jesus as the Messiah.

Actually, there is. I quoted the passage.

Please prove that he was speaking for all of them. Can't be done. Peter was part of the inner circle, with James and John. How do you know that he wasn't referring to just them? You don't.

Because, Jesus said,


67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? (Joh 6:67 KJV)

There is nothing definitive to prove that he was speaking for all 12. More likely the inner circle.

Your speculating. Jesus said to the twelve and Peter answered we. Jesus question was to the 12 and Peter answered for them. As I said, the only argument that can be made is that Peter was wrong.

Doesn't matter one whit. They ALL saw the miracles.

It does matter. The Pharisees didn’t see all of the miracles, besides Jesus said and did things among the 12 that others didn’t see

You've not proven that.

I have proven it. It was in the post in which I referred to the those in the wilderness.

First, no scholar knows who wrote Hebrews. There are a number of men put forward, but no consensus at all. So, don't ascribe Hebrews to Paul. Second, the "rest" refers to eternal blessings, not salvation.

Just read ch 11 on faith. Esp v.10, 13, 26 (!), 35 (note "better"), 39.

I’m not concerned with what the Scholars say. There’s enough early Christian evidence suggesting Paul as the author for me to accept him as the author. The rest is not talking about blessings, it’s talking about the Sabbath, that what the word means. If you look at the context Paul is equating God’s working days and resting on the seventh with the Sabbath rest that awaits the believer.

I never said that believing in God is saving faith. Far from it. Are you reading my posts carefully, or not?

You said,


Butch5---Aren't you saying the same thing, that one only needs to believe and he is saved?

Freegrace---Yes, that it what Scripture teaches.


This is from post 1356

Of course not. One must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Paul's answer to the jailer's question.

What do you do with the OT saints who never hears of Jesus? You see, they all believed in the same God.

 

[Butch5]

Read the context.

I do and see nothing about loss of blessings

It is apparent that the concept that the believer needs to be in fellowship with Christ in order to be productive is nearly unknown in evangelicalism. Very sad. 1 Jn 1 is a good start.

But that doesn't address the issue. How is one saved who has no fellowship with Christ.

I'll use human terms and experiences in order to explain it.

A married couple (husband and bride). The Bible uses such terms in a spiritual sense, so it's a very good analogy.

A married couple have a relationship (they're married), but have no fellowship with each other. Are you aware of the meaning of "estranged" or "alienated"? A married couple can live under the same roof yet be estranged or alienated from each other. The same can be true of the believer with His Lord. Which is why John wrote 1 Jn 1.

That may be fine in the case of humans, but where does Scripture indicate that one can be estranged from Christ and be saved?

What is absurd is the claim that one can lose their salvation.

It's not absurd at all, it's all over the Bible

Do you believe that once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God, or not? Please answer.

You'll need to define what you mean by a child of God. If by child of God you mean a saved person then they may not always be a child of God. I think what you may be overlooking is the fact that a son can be disinherited, so even if one is technically as son of God it doesn't guarantee they will inherit the promises.

 

[DRS81]

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

And He NEVER said anything about loss of salvation. Your assumption is unfounded. In fact, His point was that those who believe for a while and in time of testing, fall away, do not produce fruit. There is nothing about loss of salvation.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Those who believe are saved.

Those who no longer believe have now BECOME unbelievers.

Jesus Christ never mentioned that those who believe for a while and fell away continue to be saved, that is totally unfounded.



Can you honestly say that if a person stop believing in Jesus Christ and converted to Islam and confessed Allah as Lord, they would still be saved?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God will love you in all circumstances.

No one can separate us from the love of God IN CHRIST JESUS!

Thats the key.

If you become and unbeliever, you are no longer IN CHRIST JESUS!

To be a partaker of Christ, you must remain stedfast to the end!




JLB

 

[DRS81]

If you become and unbeliever, you are no longer IN CHRIST JESUS!

But a born again christian cannot go back to being an unbeliever.
It baffles me that you don't understand this.
The term unbeliever is for those who have not been born again.
Atheists, catholics, buddhists, agnostics, muslims, religious zealots.
Once the holy spirit reveals himself to you, he cannot un-reveal himself.
Are you a born again christian JLB, have you accepted Jesus as your savior?

 

[JLB]

But a born again christian cannot go back to being an unbeliever.
It baffles me that you don't understand this.
The term unbeliever is for those who have not been born again.
Atheists, catholics, buddhists, agnostics, muslims, religious zealots.
Once the holy spirit reveals himself to you, he cannot un-reveal himself.
Are you a born again christian JLB, have you accepted Jesus as your savior?

Where in these verses do you see the phrase or wording that " the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to you"?

You are making up your own Gospel Message.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

What would call someone who no longer believes?

Please explain using scripture.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The word for election is “ekletos” and it means to choose. You said there were 6 categories.

And I gave them to you. 6 different categories of who God chose for special privilege and service. Look up the definition of election in the ISBE. It's all there.

Because, Jesus said,
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? (Joh 6:67 KJV)

Your speculating. Jesus said to the twelve and Peter answered we. Jesus question was to the 12 and Peter answered for them. As I said, the only argument that can be made is that Peter was wrong.

The speculation is all yours, as you must argue that Peter was spokesman for all of them. How do you know he was speaking for all of them. He was the ONLY one who in fact did answer. And Peter wasn't the spokesman for any of them.

It does matter. The Pharisees didn’t see all of the miracles, besides Jesus said and did things among the 12 that others didn’t see

None of this proves anything.

I’m not concerned with what the Scholars say. There’s enough early Christian evidence suggesting Paul as the author for me to accept him as the author. The rest is not talking about blessings, it’s talking about the Sabbath, that what the word means. If you look at the context Paul is equating God’s working days and resting on the seventh with the Sabbath rest that awaits the believer.

Rewards in eternity are in view.

What do you do with the OT saints who never hears of Jesus? You see, they all believed in the same God.

All the OT saints KNEW about the MESSIAH. That's who they believed in for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I do and see nothing about loss of blessings

The Bible says there are some with eyes who do not see. I guess I can't help you. But it's there. Some just would rather hang on to their own assumptions.

But that doesn't address the issue. How is one saved who has no fellowship with Christ.

You're completely missing the point. Unless one understands the difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP, they cannot grasp Scripture.

The prodigal son is the Biblical example. The story begins with the prodigal AS A SON, and ends with him AS A SON, and even when he was sitting in the pig sty, he was STILL A SON. That is relationship. Father and son.

But, while in the "far country", he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with his father. Still a son, but out of fellowship. This is real simple, really.

When he "came to his senses", he confessed his sin, and repented (got out of the pig sty and went home). Had he just confessed his sin, but kep sitting in the sty, he would be no better off. But still a son.

See? Not so difficult.

That may be fine in the case of humans, but where does Scripture indicate that one can be estranged from Christ and be saved?

The better question is where in Scripture does it clearly and unambiguously state that salvation can be lost.

And such a view cannot answer the huge problem that ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

It's not absurd at all, it's all over the Bible

Easy to claim, impossible to prove.

You'll need to define what you mean by a child of God. If by child of God you mean a saved person then they may not always be a child of God.

If that were so, please provide some unambiguous where the Bible teaches that a child of God may not "always be" a child of God. I'm amazed at this line of thinking.

Just as in the human realm, a child CANNOT ever be "unchilded" from his parents. Impossible. Same in the spiritual realm. In fact, John makes that clear in 1 Jn 3, about the "seed of God".
3:9 - "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

God's seed abides in the one who has believed. We become a child of God WHEN we believe. There are no verses about loss of that status.

I think what you may be overlooking is the fact that a son can be disinherited, so even if one is technically as son of God it doesn't guarantee they will inherit the promises.

That's exactly what I'm saying!!!! The promised inheritance are the rewards in eternity that are promised ONLY for His children who have been faithful and obedient. Those who rebel against their Father lose those rewards, as all the warning passages say.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Those who believe are saved.

They possess ETERNAL life. That is life that CANNOT experience the second DEATH of the lake of fire. Deal with that, please.

Those who no longer believe have now BECOME unbelievers.

No, they become apostate. They have changed their minds, but they are still a child of God. Can you find any evidence from Scripture that God UNchilds His disobedient children?

Jesus Christ never mentioned that those who believe for a while and fell away continue to be saved, that is totally unfounded.

What is really unfounded is your assumption that "fell away" means loss of salvation. It is clear from the wording that Jesus was saying that they fell away from their faith. Nothing about their salvation. But it seems you read Scripture with your own bias. Kinda like the Calvinists who read Scripture with their bias that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Can you honestly say that if a person stop believing in Jesus Christ and converted to Islam and confessed Allah as Lord, they would still be saved?

Yes or No?

I can honestly say this: ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD

Do you disagree with this? If so, where is the evidence in Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace]

God will love you in all circumstances.

No one can separate us from the love of God IN CHRIST JESUS!

Thats the key.

If you become and unbeliever, you are no longer IN CHRIST JESUS!

Where's the proof of this. Eph 1:13 tells us how believers are "in Christ", and 4:30 says believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If this seal can be broken, where do you find that in Scripture?