A lack of clear Scripture? Chessman, it's all over the Bible.
If you think that Scripture(s) describing folks losing their salvation is “all over the bible” then why have they not been posts so far? Regardless, you should post the verse(s) that's your absolute clearest Scripture that describes a saved person losing their salvation. It's not been posted yet (I've studied every Scriptural reference so far). And you've made no conclusive or logical case for it using Hebrews 3-4 either. As I said, logically speaking, if you desire to use Heb 3:12’s “
falling away from the living God” and/or “
harden your hearts as in rebellion”, etc. as if Hebrews meant these as synonyms for “losing salvation”. You simply must explain (if you’re going to be convincing here) why it is that Moses and Aaron didn’t enter His land rest along with the rest of them in that generation that were disobedient.
But even more fundamental, again, it seems rather obvious and a glaring reason that Heb 3-4 is even being considered as a ‘losing your salvation’ passage is the utter lack of any verses is the Bible that comes right out and says “You will lose your salvation if you do X,Y or Z (enough times or once or whatever)”. When you say “it’s all over the bible”, it only makes your case look weaker to point out a passage that really doesn’t say it.
Frankly, I cannot image a more profound example of God’s patience endurance with some blatantly disobedient children, (including Moses and Aaron at times) yet all the while showing his fatherly disciplining/care (even to the point of causing physical death (the 1st death) and loss of the right to enter the land) to those individuals that needed it than the account of Israeli’s Exodus and time in the desert/wilderness.
I've already addressed this with Agua, Moses and Aaron were not part of those that Paul spoke of that provoked God those 10 times. It was those who provoked God those 10 times to whom it was said "they shall not enter my rest."
You say you “addressed this with Agua” and you consider them (Moses/Aaron) “not part” of those that Hebrews spoke of dying in the wilderness. Not really very convincingly have you addressed it (and yes, I’ve read your responses), to be frank. It seems you’ve stated that’s your opinion (which is fine of course) but I don’t see any Biblical evidence for your thoughts about Moses/Aaron being excluded. And what’s more is that there’s much evidence against that view. In my opinion you’ve not addressed the fact that Moses would be considered a “father” to the Hebrews having shared an ancient apostolic message (The OT Pentateuch) to the Jews reading the NT Hebrews Epistle and Aaron considered their former high priest (their first one) and then Heb 3 beginning the comparison of their house to Jesus’ House (apostle by Him and Priested by Him). Yet we have Moses being disobedient to God at times and for goodness sake, Aaron commissioning the making of the golden calf in the wilderness. Then we have the introduction of this whole Exodus/Wilderness/Death/Rest/disobedience example setting up and ending the context of Hebrew’s example with Moses and the high priest office. We are clearly told some of the Israelites (technically
all of a certain generation that included Moses/Aaron) dying in the wilderness specifically calling out Moses and mentioning the high priestly office (which implies Aaron), yet showing the superiority of Jesus as an Apostle and High Priest within His House (the Christian church). I know of no reason to somehow exclude Moses/Aaron from those that were disobedient and thusly dying in the wilderness. The whole point of Heb 3-4 and stretching into 10-12 is the point that Jesus is so, so superior to even Moses/Aaron. I.e. Jesus is God.
Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession…7:11 Thus if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, for on the basis of it the people received the law, what further need is there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek and not said to be according to the order of Aaron? … 12:20 For they (that generation) could not endure what was commanded…And the spectacle was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.”
Exodus 4:14 And Yahweh was angry with Moses
Hebrews 3:10.Therefore I was angry with this generation,
Sure, we have Hebrews saying Moses was faithful “
in his household” (to his people). But Hebrews also recognizes Moses was disobedient to God (at times) and held unbelief at times. And Aaron, boy was he disobedient.
18 And to whom did he swear they would not enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness?
Did Moses and Aaron enter into his rest or not? No. Were they disobedient? Yes. Were they part of that generation? Yes.
Yes it was those that sinned whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness (including Moses’ and Aaron’s). But you might notice that it says their dead BODIES fell there. I make zero assumptions that that fact implies their final fate is in the Lake of Fire just because they died in the wilderness and didn’t enter his earthly rest (the land). Frankly, it’s rather obvious that not entering his rest cannot logically be a synonym for loss of salvation. It's literally excluded as a possiblity UNLESS you could somehow come up with how Moses and Aaron are not now saved (or somehow exclude them from those that died in the wildernss). You've done neither.
4 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Heb 3:14 KJV)
First you seem to assume what happens IF people are not then steadfast till the end. Guess who was NOT “steadfast till the end” in a literal sesnse? Aaron and Moses!
Second, I believe OSAS because of all the very clear Scriptures that say so (as have been posted here), to include this one.
Heb 3:14 (LEB) For we have become partners of Christ, …
And boy, what a partner He is.
Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to the one who appointed him
p.s. I'm just wondering out loud here with the following question to the OSAS side of the debate here: Am I the only one that comes away from a fair examination of all these so called here’s how you "lose your salvation" verses (or most often a partial verse/phrase that’s posted from the anti-OSAS side) even more convinced of OSAS than ever? I mean every time, so far, that I look into these passages (like Heb 3-4, 10-12, etc.) I come away even more convinced in OSAS. Take Heb 3-4, for example. Not only does it not say anything about losing one’s salvation and logically exclude the phrase “falling away from the living God” from meaning it, but what’s up with Hebrews calling believers “Holy brothers”, “sharers in a heavenly calling” and a “partner of Christ”? Them’s some awfully strong words for a condition that supposedly believers stand in which supposedly teeters on the edge of destruction daily.
