Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[FreeGrace]

Jesus' words are very clear to those who can see.

Correct.

You won't get to argue with The Lord on the day of Judgement, as it will be too late.

I won't have to. There will be no need to.

[QUOE]12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13 [/QUOTE]
It would be nice if you would at least address my point about ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

That's the problem that your view cannot overcome.

Here is the scripture you say I'm not providing.

Where? It surely isn't Luke 8:12-13.

Now it's your turn to provide a scripture that says, those who believe for a while and fall away, will be saved just as the faithful believers.

I've given you all the principles in play, and you've ignored them all. All who believe BECOME children of God. Just as in the human phyical realm, no one can change their birth parent. Just as in the spiritual realm, no one can change their "birth parent", which is God. 1 Jn 3:9 says we have His seed in us. That's what makes us His children. You cannot deny this. Which is why you must ignore it altogether.

If you can show this thread where unfaithful unbelievers will be saved, then you will have a case.

Rom 8:38-39. Nothing, including the present or future, will separate us (those who have believed) from the love of Christ.

So far you have only showed us that believers will be saved.

Quit ignoring my points. ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

The only way to refute this is to show from Scripture that God UNchilds us. Or UNbirths us.

It is fate those who believe for a while then fall away, that we are discussing.

I've explained it, and you've rejected it. But you are free to reject what you want.

Here is my scripture, that you say I have not provided, that say unbelievers will not be saved.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Inheritance is about rewards. The key in the list is those who haven't believed. They're called UNbelievers.

Please explain how a born again child of God can end up in the second DEATH, who possesses eternal life.

Or, show me any passage that says that eternal life can be taken away.

The problem with your view is the inability to explain how God can UNbirth His children.

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, But...

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, But... the unbelieving, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Here is another -

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, But...

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, But... the abominable shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Sounds like one must be a good boy to go to heaven, the way you're using these passages. Nope. We are saved by grace, through faith. And there are no verses that say that salvation can be lost. Zero.

These scriptures are crystal clear and plain, as they have been written as a warning to the church.

The warning is about loss of reward, which it seems you're not very impressed with in the first place.

Now it's your turn to provide a scripture that says, those who believe for a while and fall away, will be saved just as the faithful believers.

I've already explained that the "falling away" refers to their belief, not their salvation. You'v taken a HUGE leap to get to your assumption.

Jesus said "believe…and fall away". The obvious meaning is to quit believing. Not stop being saved.

The real problem with your view is how you treat salvation, like it's just an object, like a "ticket to heaven", one that can be lost, misplaced, forfeited, returned, etc. But you have zero support for that in Scripture.

Salvation is not an object. It is a condition, one that cannot be reversed.

Please show me any verse that addresses a change in condition that indicates loss of being a child of God, and loss of possessing eternal life.

(hint: there aren't any)

Your view is unsubstantiated in Scripture.

 

[jonahmano]

You're putting erroneous words in my mouth. I never said it "doesn't matter". We are commanded to pray, read Scripture and fellowship with believers. But NOT for salvation. That was my point, but it seems you're not wanting to get it.

On one side you say that prayer, bible-reading and fellowship is a commandment and another side you say that they are exclusive of salvation. If you think they are exclusive of salvation why does God commands us to love him by obeying his commandments.

Correct, not a necessity for getting into heaven. Why do you think one needs these things to get to heaven? Aren't you trusting solely in the finished work of Christ to save you???????????

Because it's not just enough just to believe in Christ but you need to know Him and you can only know Him when you have fellowship with Him and that must happen on day to day basis. Believe and confess and just mind your own business is not the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ. Now don't bring peculiar cases like blind and deaf people, early believers who didn't have bibles, thief on the cross. Those are exceptions and there are still exceptions today but I'm talking about a person with a healthy body and sound mind.

I never said anything about being an unfaithful or disobedient child of God and living a "happy worldly life". It seems you haven't read my posts very carefully. I've posted a great deal about God's dicipline for His errant children. They don't live happily ever after. They may not show it on the outside, and you may erroneously think they are, but don't kid yourself, God knows PERFECTLY how to discipline His children. That's what all the warning passages are about. They aren't passages to take lightly. They are NOT about loss of salvation, but are about loss of blessing and reward. Can a believer truly be happy in this life without God's blessings? Absolutely not. They may put on a "happy face", but there is no doubt that inside they're miserable.

I know that you never said anything about unfaithful and disobedient child, I was just giving examples to know your opinion. Since you said praying, bible-reading and fellowship are exclusive of salvation then I just asked you if it's exclusive then why can't we ignore them?

 

[Eugene]

Anyone on this thread saved? How do you know?

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, Anyone here a son of God?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ever lie? Oh the humanity huh? Psa 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

 

[JLB]

Free grace said -

It would be nice if you would at least address my point about ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

I will address your point, just as soon as you provide the scripture that specifically states: ONCE A CHILD OF GOD ALWAYS A CHILD IF GOD.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

I will address your point, just as soon as you provide the scripture that specifically states: ONCE A CHILD OF GOD ALWAYS A CHILD IF GOD.


JLB

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Butch5]

And I gave them to you. 6 different categories of who God chose for special privilege and service. Look up the definition of election in the ISBE. It's all there.

It doesn't matter what the ISBE says. The word simply means to choose. How do you have categories of. to choose? The problem is that people want to make these big elaborate systems out of simple words, it's done with batpsizo, eklectos, proorizo, proginosko, etc. These were simple everyday words that the people of the NT used. It's theologians who have turned these simple everyday words into these big theological concepts and added a ton of baggage to them. The word Eklectos simply means to choose. It wasn't some theological concept to first century Christians.

The speculation is all yours, as you must argue that Peter was spokesman for all of them. How do you know he was speaking for all of them. He was the ONLY one who in fact did answer. And Peter wasn't the spokesman for any of them.

I guess there's really no point. He said "we believe", that makes him speaking for the group.

None of this proves anything.

Again, i guess there's no point.

Rewards in eternity are in view.

It says nothing about rewards.

All the OT saints KNEW about the MESSIAH. That's who they believed in for salvation.

Maybe you could point out some Scripture for that.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

I've given you all the principles in play, and you've ignored them all. All who believe BECOME children of God. Just as in the human phyical realm, no one can change their birth parent. Just as in the spiritual realm, no one can change their "birth parent", which is God. 1 Jn 3:9 says we have His seed in us. That's what makes us His children. You cannot deny this. Which is why you must ignore it altogether.

I have asked you for scripture and you give opinion.

Please write out the specific scripture that that states what you have claimed.


Now it's your turn to provide a scripture that says, those who believe for a while and fall away, will be saved just as the faithful believers.

JLB

 

[DRS81]

JLB You need to start quoting people again so they receive alerts, so they do not have to flip through all these pages. or use @username.

 

[JLB]

JLB You need to start quoting people again so they receive alerts, so they do not have to flip through all these pages. or use @username.

Ok sorry

 

[Butch5]

The Bible says there are some with eyes who do not see. I guess I can't help you. But it's there. Some just would rather hang on to their own assumptions.

Or, it's simply not there but is has been created as a way to protect OSAS. If you take note to the Scriptures, when Jesus speaks of reward it is singular. A reward not multiple rewards. That singular reward is eternal life.

You're completely missing the point. Unless one understands the difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP, they cannot grasp Scripture.

The prodigal son is the Biblical example. The story begins with the prodigal AS A SON, and ends with him AS A SON, and even when he was sitting in the pig sty, he was STILL A SON. That is relationship. Father and son.

But, while in the "far country", he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with his father. Still a son, but out of fellowship. This is real simple, really.

When he "came to his senses", he confessed his sin, and repented (got out of the pig sty and went home). Had he just confessed his sin, but kep sitting in the sty, he would be no better off. But still a son.

See? Not so difficult.

You're right it is simple. The prodigal Son is Israel. He was a son in fellowship with yet he turned away took his inheritance and squandered it. Israel was a son they took their inheritance, the land, and squandered it. The prodigal turned back to the father and was received. What did Paul say about Israel?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; {among them: or, for them}
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:13-24 KJV)

The better question is where in Scripture does it clearly and unambiguously state that salvation can be lost.

All over,

And such a view cannot answer the huge problem that ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.


Easy to claim, impossible to prove.


If that were so, please provide some unambiguous where the Bible teaches that a child of God may not "always be" a child of God. I'm amazed at this line of thinking.

Just as in the human realm, a child CANNOT ever be "unchilded" from his parents. Impossible. Same in the spiritual realm. In fact, John makes that clear in 1 Jn 3, about the "seed of God".
3:9 - "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

God's seed abides in the one who has believed. We become a child of God WHEN we believe. There are no verses about loss of that status.

The problem is that we are not the seed of God, that's Christ. We are adopted. Adoption is a legal process not a birth process.

That's exactly what I'm saying!!!! The promised inheritance are the rewards in eternity that are promised ONLY for His children who have been faithful and obedient. Those who rebel against their Father lose those rewards, as all the warning passages say.

What I said is not what you're saying. The inheritance is the eternal land inheritance. Eternal life is part of that promise. If one doesn't get that reward they don't have eternal life thus they cease to exist after being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[DRS81]

JLB or Butch5 There is a difference between the unbelief of the Hebrews and unbelief in an atheist. Do you know what the difference is.

 

[FreeGrace]

On one side you say that prayer, bible-reading and fellowship is a commandment and another side you say that they are exclusive of salvation.

They don't result in salvation. What verses say that they are necessary in order to obtain eternal life?

If you think they are exclusive of salvation why does God commands us to love him by obeying his commandments.

Because God commands His children to love Him and obey Him. And He has promised to bless those that do and reward them for eternity. Not a bad promise. otoh, the warning passages are about God's hand of discipline in time, and loss of rewards in eternity. Maybe it doesn't seem very significant to you, but there will be lots of believers literally sitting on the sidelines in eternity, watching the faithful believers reign with Christ (2 Tim 2:12) as co-heirs (Rom 8:17).

Because it's not just enough just to believe in Christ but you need to know Him and you can only know Him when you have fellowship with Him and that must happen on day to day basis.

For salvation, it IS enough. In fact, there is no other criteria for salvation. Jn 20:31.

Believe and confess and just mind your own business is not the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't say it was. His gospel is clear enough: Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27, 20:31. Believe for eternal life.

Now don't bring peculiar cases like blind and deaf people, early believers who didn't have bibles, thief on the cross. Those are exceptions and there are still exceptions today but I'm talking about a person with a healthy body and sound mind.

I just proved my case with verses without all these "exceptions".

I know that you never said anything about unfaithful and disobedient child, I was just giving examples to know your opinion.

Oh, I've said a great deal ab out unfaithful/disobedient children. The warning passages are directed to them regarding discipline in time and loss of rewards in eternity. But none of them say that salvation is in view.

Since you said praying, bible-reading and fellowship are exclusive of salvation then I just asked you if it's exclusive then why can't we ignore them?

You can ignore them. God has given you free will. But you'll be a disobedient child, and will definitely face His discipline. Are you familiar with Heb 12?

 

[FreeGrace]

Anyone on this thread saved? How do you know?

I am. I know because God has promised to give eternal life to those who believe in His Son (Jn 6:40).

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, Anyone here a son of God?

All who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have BECOME a child of God (Jn 1:12, Rom 8:17).

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How can one who has received eternal LIFE enter into the second DEATH? That is impossible.

Ever lie? Oh the humanity huh? Psa 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Yep. We're all sinners, even though we are new creatures. But since Christ died for ALL sins, sin cannot be an issue for entering heaven. Why people think so always amazes me.

 

[FreeGrace]

I will address your point, just as soon as you provide the scripture that specifically states: ONCE A CHILD OF GOD ALWAYS A CHILD IF GOD. JLB

Really? Is there any way to change your birth parent?? Come on, let's be reasonable here. The Bible uses terms that humans can relate to. God is our Father, and has given us birth (Titus 3:5). He is our spiritual birth parent. It i simply impossible to change that. Just as it is impossible to change your own birth parent. You may or may not have fellowship with them, but they will always be your very own birth parents.

So, I don't need a verse to say the obvious. In fact, the burden is on you to explain how a child can be UNparented by their birth parent. Good luck with that challenge. And I don't believe in luck.

The relationship (DNA etc) between parent and child cannot be changed. Why wouldn't it be the same regarding our spiritual birth parent?

 

[DRS81]

FreeGrace

ETERNAL LIFE
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

It doesn't matter what the ISBE says.

Now, there's a novel view. You are free to reject the views of experts, but that doesn't mean you'll prosper from it.

Rom 9:11 tells us there is a PURPOSE in God's election (or choosing, if you prefer). And God has chosen (elected, as I prefer) 6 different categories for a special purpose, and they are all different from each other. Or do you think as a believer your election is the same as Christ's?????

The word simply means to choose.

Your view is simply near-sighted. Read what the experts say.

How do you have categories of. to choose?

Uh, the Bible defines who has been chosen. There are 6 of them.

The problem is that people want to make these big elaborate systems out of simple words, it's done with batpsizo, eklectos, proorizo, proginosko, etc. These were simple everyday words that the people of the NT used. It's theologians who have turned these simple everyday words into these big theological concepts and added a ton of baggage to them. The word Eklectos simply means to choose. It wasn't some theological concept to first century Christians.

If these words are too difficult for some people, then I understand why it seems so hard for them to grasp the doctrine.

I guess there's really no point. He said "we believe", that makes him speaking for the group.

It does not demand that he knew what Judas was thinking. In fact, there is no evidence that they expected him to betray Jesus. Your opinion is interesting; nothing more.

It says nothing about rewards.

It's all in the context.

Maybe you could point out some Scripture for that.

I've been nothing but that. Those who have been reading my posts have seen them.

 

[JLB]

JLB or Butch5 There is a difference between the unbelief of the Hebrews and unbelief in an atheist. Do you know what the difference is.

An unbeliever who never believed and an unbeliever who once believed are both classified as unbelievers.

Luke 8:13 clearly states - who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

OSAS SAYS THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!

Unless you can show from the scriptures that when someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still somehow a believer, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is they are now unbelievers.

Why does this seem so difficult to understand?

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I have asked you for scripture and you give opinion.

This false charge is noted, and rejected.

Please write out the specific scripture that that states what you have claimed.

Please give me the post #, since when I click on reply the context isn't included. So, what was it that I "have claimed".

Now it's your turn to provide a scripture that says, those who believe for a while and fall away, will be saved just as the faithful believers.
JLB

To demand specific wording goes both ways. You keep flogging Lk 8:13 as if it SAYS what you think. But it doesn't. Obviously it doesn't. Your prooftext has failed you. It doesn't say what you keep claiming. It does say that they believed for awhile, and then fell away from what they believed. Nothing here about falling from salvation.

Maybe your view of God the Father is that He doesn't hold His children in His hand very firmly, but John 10:28-29 is very clear. No one (not even your self) can snatch you out of His hand.

And Rom 8:38 tells us that that NOTHING in the present or in the FUTURE will separate us from the love of Christ. Not even your apostasy, should you apostatize.

 

[FreeGrace]

Or, it's simply not there but is has been created as a way to protect OSAS. If you take note to the Scriptures, when Jesus speaks of reward it is singular. A reward not multiple rewards. That singular reward is eternal life.

If your view is that eternal life is a reward, then it cannot be called a "free gift", which it IS in Rom 6:23. So you've got a huge problem. Plus, ALL rewards are earned. Ever hear about grace? Grace is NOT earned. I feel sorry for your view.

You're right it is simple. The prodigal Son is Israel. He was a son in fellowship with yet he turned away took his inheritance and squandered it. Israel was a son they took their inheritance, the land, and squandered it. The prodigal turned back to the father and was received. What did Paul say about Israel?

You can spiritualize the parables all you want. The story is simply a human story with a principle. The son was ALWAYS a son. Face it. Even in the far country, he never lost his sonship. We was out of fellowship, but still a son.

ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD. Can this be refuted?

The problem is that we are not the seed of God, that's Christ.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Please read my posts before making such a gaff. I never said that. I said, and cited Scripture, that God's seed is in us. You know, spiritual DNA. 1 Jn 3:9 I even cited the verse. Don't you look up verse that are cited? That's no way to follow and participate in discussions.

We are adopted. Adoption is a legal process not a birth process.

There is no relevance between first century adoption and current adoption. I recommend researching the topic.

What I said is not what you're saying.

Of course not. We disagree.

The inheritance is the eternal land inheritance. Eternal life is part of that promise.

Nope. The Jews had to work very hard for the promised land. Eternal life is not earned.

If one doesn't get that reward they don't have eternal life thus they cease to exist after being cast into the lake of fire.

Eternal life cannot be earned. It is a free gift (Rom 6:23). Period. Your view is totally unbiblical. I recommend you re-think your pov.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

ETERNAL LIFE
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

Bingo!! Thanks. There is NO WAY one who possesses eternal LIFE can end up in the second DEATH.

I wonder why these guys can't or won't see this.