Jethro Bodine
Member
Do you believe that James' message to the church to show one's faith by what they do (James 2:18 NASB) is a message of not realizing what Christ has done and living a vain, worthless life of works?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Losing Salvation after getting saved?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
But if I stop believing in the blood of Christ to mediate between me and the Father in heaven, I no longer have that which justifies me ministering for me before the Father. What sacrifice is left to justify me before God if I abandon my faith in the only sacrifice for sin there is?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
No, I'm going to keep believing to keep the position in Christ that believing secures for me. Reading my Bible, studying, worshiping, mission work, feeding the poor, but primarily, walking in the fruit of the Spirit is what my continuing trust in the blood looks like.
I'm not on auto pilot. Believers have to purposely choose to do what their faith in God's forgiveness is compelling them to do. How firmly rooted our faith is is what determines how much of a struggle we have in purposely acting in accordance with the impulse of the Spirit of faith within us.
But you can tell to what extent you are relying on what Christ has already done for you by what you do. To think you can not do anything and still think you're relying on what Christ has done for you is to be deceived that you are still relying on what Christ has already done for you. And if you are not still relying on what Christ has already done for you, that finished work is no longer ministering on your behalf before the Father in heaven.
Correct. And I will say again what James says. If your faith does not find expression in the Christian way of life, your faith can not save you. But your particular strain of OSAS says a dead faith CAN save you.
What you are not understanding is we maintain what Christ has already done for us by continuing to believe. Work is the manifestation of that continued believing. The deception is thinking that faith that does not work can still save you. That is not what James teaches. He says the faith that can save us is the faith that is obedient to God, not disobedient to God. James says that the faith that does not respond in obedience to God can not save you. But OSAS gives people the deceitful thinking that it will.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I think you're making a reference to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NASB. Our work that gets burned up are the people we failed to successfully place in the building of Christ. It is not a passage that shows we can walk away from Christ, be punished for doing that, and still be saved.
The problem with this is the punishment assigned to the believer who later walks away from the faith is the same punishment of the damned, not a loving swat on the rear.
chessman
Member
You mean like the punishment assigned to the believers that were 'spewed out of God's mouth' in Laodicea? Which you say is a synonym for the Lake of Fire punishment, when in fact it's claerly a loving, yet disciplining metaphor stated directly from the mouth of the only true witness of being faithful there is or has been or will be, The Amen that created it all (including the believers):
Rev 3 (LEB) “This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: 15 ‘I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 Thus, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth! 17 Because you are saying, “I am rich, and have become rich, and I have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I reprove and discipline.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Nobody goes to the lake of fire until the end. 'Spewing out' is God taking those he loves and disciplines (in this case, professing, but disobedient, believers), but who do not respond to his loving discipline, and turning them over to their choice to not walk in the faith. God will deny anyone who first denies him. You make this so unnecessarily hard, chessman.
And, of course, you want to argue that if these people repent he will still reprove and discipline them for what they are no longer guilty about.
chessman
Member
Jesus says: I know your works … I am about to vomit you out of my mouth!
[Not if or maybe or if you continue. Rather I AM about to vomit you out because I already know your works. 'You think you are rich' but you're really blind.]
Jethro says: Not “if these people repent” He won’t.
Blind people need His eye salve (reprove).
Paul says: If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:13 (LEB)
Jethro says: God will deny anyone who first denies him.
It’s not hard for me to read what these texts say. It’s difficult for some, sometimes to admit they were wrong about what it says, however.
Let's consider what salvation is all about. We know that we receive eternal life (Jn 6:40). We know that we receive the right to be the children of God (Jn 1:12). We know that we are forgiven (Acts 10:43). How would one give up these things? Further, does the Bible clearly state that any of these things can be given up? I haven't found any verses.
Yes, one can leave the faith. That is called apostasy. But how is leaving the faith losing one's salvation?
Can a child severe the relationship with his/her parent? I'm talking about relationship, not fellowship, which is different. No, no child nor parent can severe that relationship. What is the proof? DNA. The child will always bear the DNA of the parent. That cannot be removed or changed.
Same in the spiritual realm. When God saves the believer, He gives that believer the "right to become children of God". Also, the believer is said to be "born again", "regenerated", or has "new birth" or called a "new creation". All of this indicates a "spiritual DNA" in that believer, which cannot be removed.
IOW, once a child, always a child. How that child behaves is quite a different subject. ;)
chessman
Member
Chessman agrees with Paul and Jesus: 32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
But Chessman thought we were discussing saved people so Chessman pointed out:
For if we died with him, we will also live with him;... if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself.
Chessman thought it relevant to the topic of saved people, that If someone who is saved has Christ also living with that someone (Him in him, so-to-speak), that Christ cannot deny Himself. Poof. OSAS.
Chessman made a good point from the scriptures: Saved people who deny Him, will be denied by Him. 2 Timothy 2:12
JLB
Peter addresses this very issue -
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;... 2 Peter 2:4 NKJV
These sons of God were cast down to hell, as their punishment for sinning!
JLB
[QUOTE="CORE, post: 975060, member: 3221"
Hebrews 10:29
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
[/QUOTE]
I have a separate thread on Hebrews 10:29 which was misquoted by few grace preachers and my questions was that if there was an link between Hebrews 10:26 to Hebrews 10:29 (So you did, so it happened) and few of them didn't agree and they were saying that both were different. Like saying sin is different and grace is different. And my simple question to one of the fella was if Hebrews was written to Christian believing Jews then how come verse 26 and 29 not linked and I asked another simple question. If you say that by not believing grace is being insulted then how does a believer need to believe? Just believing and simply sitting? I just asked him if he can have an example of any person so that I can believe that if a Christian can insult the grace and his answer was "if you deliberately sin.........." and I got my reply it's nothing but Hebrews 10:26
Hebrews 10:29
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
[/QUOTE]
I have a separate thread on Hebrews 10:29 which was misquoted by few grace preachers and my questions was that if there was an link between Hebrews 10:26 to Hebrews 10:29 (So you did, so it happened) and few of them didn't agree and they were saying that both were different. Like saying sin is different and grace is different. And my simple question to one of the fella was if Hebrews was written to Christian believing Jews then how come verse 26 and 29 not linked and I asked another simple question. If you say that by not believing grace is being insulted then how does a believer need to believe? Just believing and simply sitting? I just asked him if he can have an example of any person so that I can believe that if a Christian can insult the grace and his answer was "if you deliberately sin.........." and I got my reply it's nothing but Hebrews 10:26
While angels are called "sons of God" in Scripture, there are no verses that speak of them being "born again", or "regenerated", or have become "new creatures". That is the sense in which I was speaking.
Consider 1 Jn 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Is this verse saying that believers cannot sin? Of course not. It is speaking of the regenerated human spirit (born of God), and that when the believer functions from the human spirit, he cannot sin. IOW, when functioning from the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides, the believer is being "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and is "walking by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16). In that state, the believer cannot grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) nor quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
When believers allow the Holy Spirit to guide them, they cannot sin. It is only when believers are grieving or quenching the Spirit are they sinning.
chessman
Member
Ah, I see you're comfortable misrepresenting the point I made. (1 Tim 4:2). I said the exact opposite thing.
Just as Jesus can contrast a saved person's actions and destiny with that of an unsaved person's using the phrase "deny Him" in the same breath, so can Paul. In fact many people, me included, and many Early Church Fathers included, believe Paul was quoting Jesus' words in Matt 10:33 that had been set to a poetic hymn in the form of a Creed. That's why Paul says "2 Timothy 2:11 "The saying is trustworthy:"
For
if we died with him, we will also live with him; (this is a line of lyric poetry, line 1)
if we endure, we will also reign with him; (line 2)
if we deny him, he also will deny us; (line 3)
if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful (line 4)
—he cannot deny himself.
There is a great amount of evidence this is literally an early Christian Hymn and Creed based on Jesus' words in Matt 10:33
That's why it is set apart with indentations and in poetic lines which seem obvious to translation scholars. But more evidenced by the way Paul introduces it as a "trustworthy say". A phrase he uses five times (see attachment)
If true, it also seems obvious that Jesus was contrasting the saved with the unsaved as He spoke to the mixed crowds in Matt 10.
You might think this through the next time you misrepresent my opinion that Paul meant an unsaved person when he said "if we deny Him" in 2 Tim 2, right in the middle of a Gospel Hymn based on Jesus' words in Matt 10:33
View attachment 4765
Angels don't need to be born again if they are sons of God, sir!
We are born again, which is a reference to being "born of God", ie; sons of God.
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1
We are sons of God through faith in Christ, now.
We will receive the full reality of sonship at the resurrection, which is the redemption of our body, in addition to the full measure of the Spirit.
Then we will be equal to the angels, being fully declared as sons of God in reality!
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36
John says it this way -
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2 NKJV
The point that I am making is this: angelic beings that are sons of God, or human beings that are sons of God, are in fact SONS OF GOD.
Adam was declared to be the son of God.
Adam was created directly by God.
The angels (sons of God) that sinned, were cast down to hell.
These were not "tares", but sons of God, angels who sinned.
Peter is writing a warning to the Church, to saved people, when he writes these words and shows the punishment of the angels and the people Who live ungodly.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
2 Peter 2:4-6
And again -
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 6-7 NKJV.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Take away the 'because', and God no longer has the reason why he will spew them out of his mouth. Simple, plain common sense...especially when we see this element of God's mercy in repentance, and the foregoing of judgment, revealed in his word to the other churches in Revelation:
3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." (Revelation 3:3 NASB)
"5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lamp stand out of its place -unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5 NASB)
People who can see.......no longer need reproof.
These Laodiceans must be really keeping you up at night.
Start admitin'...
"For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Timothy 2:11-13 NASB)
Weak, faithless people--like me, and a lot of Christians from time to time--still belong to Christ. He can not deny us because he cannot deny his own body. But those who deny Christ no longer belong to Christ. These he can, and will deny. He says so.
What you have to do is prove the 'we' in 'if we deny Him' somehow doesn't include Paul and the church. Nobody's been able to do that yet. That was the fence sitting point for me for a while. But not anymore. The scriptures that warn us to not turn our backs on Christ and his forgiveness, either through contempt or indifference, were written to believers, not unbelievers.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jethro Bodine
Member
Here's the verses:
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him,saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began toplead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on yourfellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger,handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB)
Because salvation is having your sins forgiven. And, as we see above, you can lose that forgiveness through careless neglect, or outright contempt for that forgiveness. If a person tramples on the blood of Christ through which they are forgiven, and lose that forgiveness as a result, there is no sacrifice for sin remaining for that person (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).