Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[FreeGrace]

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 1 John 5:4

13 And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing. Luke 8:13

What about those who believe for a while, then depart in the face of persecution... these who depart and did not overcome because they fell away, departed, and are no longer believing.

When the world overcomes a person who believes and causes them to stop believing, then the person is not an overcomer but they themselves are overcome.

There is no victory in that scenario.
JLB

Of course there is no victory for the believer who loses faith. But that doesn't equate to ending up in the second DEATH, ESP when that believer was given ETERNAL life by God WHEN he believed. Something no one has even tried to explain.

Your view of God is that He simply discards those children of His who lose faith. There is NO grace in that scenario.

Jesus Christ died for ALL sins, including the sin of unbelief. So even when a believer loses faith, that sin was paid for.

What y'all aren't getting is that God gives eternal life WHEN one believes. And eternal actually means just that. It is eternal, and therefore, cannot die. So said believer CANNOT be cast into the lake of fire, also called the second DEATH.

Please explain that (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) view.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we deny Him, He also will deny us.JLB

Context, please. 2 Tim 2:12a is the context: IF we endure (maintain faith), we WILL reign with Him. Eternal reward.

So, the denying in v.12b refers to reigning with Christ, NOT salvation. He WILL deny those believers who don't endure (deny Him) from reigning with Him.

Very simple to understand. But the bias of many seems unwilling to understand this.

 

[JLB]

I think you misunderstand the "Blood of Christ". He HAS paid in full for ALL your sins. There isn't anything else that can be done. And God GAVE you eternal life when you believed, did He not?

Therefore, your basic position is that God simply discards any of His children who lose faith. There isn't anything in Scripture to indicate that.

Let's check this theory against scripture -


15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:15


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9


6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

• What the scripture says is you need to walk in the light as He is in the light, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

What you are saying is there is no need to walk in the light, because Jesus has forgiven all our sins that we will ever commit.

• What the scripture says is IF you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

What you say is there is no need to confess your sins, because He has forgiven all your sins you will ever commit.

• What the scripture says, he who does the will of God abides forever.

What you say, is there is no need to do God's will or obey Him, or be led by the Spirit, or learn to practice righteousness, because all your sins that you will ever commit are already forgiven, even the sin of denying the Lord.



It's my opinion that the very reason the Church in America is so filled with sin and all manner of compromise, stems from this false teaching.


Brother, I urge you to repent from the (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) doctrine, and teaching it to others as well.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Of course there is no victory for the believer who loses faith. But that doesn't equate to ending up in the second DEATH, ESP when that believer was given ETERNAL life by God WHEN he believed. Something no one has even tried to explain.

Your view of God is that He simply discards those children of His who lose faith. There is NO grace in that scenario.

Jesus Christ died for ALL sins, including the sin of unbelief. So even when a believer loses faith, that sin was paid for.

What y'all aren't getting is that God gives eternal life WHEN one believes. And eternal actually means just that. It is eternal, and therefore, cannot die. So said believer CANNOT be cast into the lake of fire, also called the second DEATH.

Please explain that (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) view.

I agree there is no grace for those who deny the Lord and turn away from Him, because they have trampled His Blood underfoot and insulted the Spirit of Grace.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Of course I do. Haven't you been paying attention? I'm the one saying you have to keep trusting in the blood to the very end to be saved by that blood on the Day of Wrath. That's what non-OSAS is all about.

Jethro,

How is it that you are able to keep trusting?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
I think you misunderstand the "Blood of Christ". He HAS paid in full for ALL your sins. There isn't anything else that can be done. And God GAVE you eternal life when you believed, did He not?

Therefore, your basic position is that God simply discards any of His children who lose faith. There isn't anything in Scripture to indicate that.

Let's check this theory against scripture -

Before we do that, you've again ignored my points. Which paragraph did you disagree with, and if so, please provide Scriptural evidence for your disagreement.

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:15

What is the "will of the Father"? Jn 6:40 says that all who believe will have eternal life. So, is your view still that God discards those whom He has given the free gift of eternal life into the second DEATH?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

This verse is about restoring FELLOWSHIP. Just scroll up a few verses to see what John was talking about.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

Yep. Fellowship. Please provide any verse that teaches that any believer can lose relationship with the Father.

• What the scripture says is you need to walk in the light as He is in the light, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

What you are saying is there is no need to walk in the light, because Jesus has forgiven all our sins that we will ever commit.

No, I'm NOT saying anything close to that. We DO need to walk in the light. That is the ONLY WAY to have fellowship with God and with Jesus Christ. This just isn't about staying saved.

• What the scripture says is IF you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

What you say is there is no need to confess your sins, because He has forgiven all your sins you will ever commit.

No, I'm NOT saying that. I have already exegeted Jn 13 where Jesus tells His 11 saved disciples that they are ALREADY clean (saved), but need their feet washed, which refers to confession from 1 Jn 1:9. It's about fellowship, which is what "abiding in Christ" means. Not salvation.

• What the scripture says, he who does the will of God abides forever.

• Absolutely true. As long as the believer is doing the will of God, he is in fellowship with the Father and the Son.

What you say, is there is no need to do God's will or obey Him, or be led by the Spirit, or learn to practice righteousness, because all your sins that you will ever commit are already forgiven, even the sin of denying the Lord.

I've NEVER said that. Please pay attention. These gross errors demonstrate that you're not following my posts at all.

The need to do God's will and obey Him is FOR blessings in time and reward in eternity. What part of this do you not understand? I will be more than happy to explain it again.

It's my opinion that the very reason the Church in America is so filled with sin and all manner of compromise, stems from this false teaching.

And that opinion is far from true.

Brother, I urge you to repent from the evil doctrine, and teaching it to others as well.
JLB

Please take a hard look in the mirror. And then please answer my points, and try to refute them from Scripture.

Do you understand what is "lost" and "saved" in 1 Cor 3:14-15? Please answer.

Keep in mind 2 Jn 8. What is it that John is warning believers to not lose?

 

[JLB]

Jethro,

How is it that you are able to keep trusting?

For me its been a learning experience, from day 1.

As I sought Him and gave my self over to the things of God, I found that He begin to move upon me and lead me and speak to me.

I also found that when when I ignored Him, or the commands in the scriptures I would find myself in trouble.

Through the years my trust and confidence has grown in Him, as I discovered how much He loves me through life's experiences that He made a way for me time and time again.

I also found out through being backsliden, that He would let me eat the fruit of my own way, on more than one occasion.

As I matured, I learned to stay close to Him like the proverbial lamb, who has his leg broken by the Sheppard when he keeps going astray, and the Sheppard carries for a season until the leg heals.

Then the lamb learns to stay close to the Sheppard, because he trust's Him.


For the record -

Grace is the power of God that He gives to you that enables you to do what you couldn't do without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Grace.


Grace is not some magic cloud that surrounds us that mysteriously makes all the sins we commit somehow disappear.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree there is no grace for those who deny the Lord and turn away from Him, because they have trampled His Blood underfoot and insulted the Spirit of Grace.
JLB

Please answer: Since all sin has been paid for, why would the Father discard those He has given eternal life to? You haven't answered that yet. Please do.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)

Truth ALWAYS has an answer for false doctrine. Always. I've always answered yours and other's questions and points. I've not had the same courtesy.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
I think you misunderstand the "Blood of Christ". He HAS paid in full for ALL your sins. There isn't anything else that can be done. And God GAVE you eternal life when you believed, did He not?

Therefore, your basic position is that God simply discards any of His children who lose faith. There isn't anything in Scripture to indicate that.

Before we do that, you've again ignored my points. Which paragraph did you disagree with, and if so, please provide Scriptural evidence for your disagreement.

• What the scripture says is you need to walk in the light as He is in the light, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

What you are saying is there is no need to walk in the light, because Jesus has forgiven all our sins that we will ever commit.

• What the scripture says is IF you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

What you say is there is no need to confess your sins, because He has forgiven all your sins you will ever commit.

• What the scripture says, he who does the will of God abides forever.

What you say, is there is no need to do God's will or obey Him, or be led by the Spirit, or learn to practice righteousness, because all your sins that you will ever commit are already forgiven, even the sin of denying the Lord.


Here is the comparison of scripture and your opinion that comes from your doctrine of OSAS.


My belief is we need to practice righteousness in order to be righteous.


If I stumble or miss God, then I ask Him to forgive me of my sin.

He has healed me and delivered me of many sinful habits, and will continue to heal me and forgive and deliver me as I repent and confess these things...

It called growth.

It's growing up into Him and being transformed into His image, having more and more of Christ formed within me.

It's a process.

It's the process of becoming... sons of God.

From a baby to mature sonship.


The doctrine of OSAS seems to cut out the need for any of this.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please answer: Since all sin has been paid for, why would the Father discard those He has given eternal life to?

Because they commit the one sin that the blood of Christ can't cover--the sin of rejecting the blood of Christ. What provision for forgiveness has God made available for the sin of rejecting the forgiveness of God? That's why there is no sacrifice remaining for that sin. God has not provided another sacrifice that covers rejecting the one and only sacrifice for sin there is--Jesus Christ.

It's the sin of calling the Holy Spirit who testifies about the forgiveness of sin through the Son a liar and a worker of the Devil by not believing what the Spirit says.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)

Truth ALWAYS has an answer for false doctrine. Always.

You'll need to ask Jesus about that one. He was the One who told us that.

Need I say anything?

 

[JLB]

Please answer: Since all sin has been paid for, why would the Father discard those He has given eternal life to? You haven't answered that yet. Please do.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)

Truth ALWAYS has an answer for false doctrine. Always. I've always answered yours and other's questions and points. I've not had the same courtesy.

Please answer: If all sin has been paid for the why are we told to confess our sins to be forgiven.

The way your sins are forgiven when you are first saved, is the way your sins will continue to be forgiven throughout your life.

46 He also said to them, "This is what is written: the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead the third day, 47 and repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47

Thats the formula for life: repentance for forgiveness of sins...


Your doctrine teaches people that their is no need for this, as all your sins that you ever commit are already forgiven when you are first saved.

Can you see the difference?


His shed blood paid for all the sins of everyone, however you must still confess your sin to Him, to access the forgiveness you are seeking.


Here is the scary part, OSAS folks see no need to confess there sins or repent because they have been taught that there is no need for such action.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Of course I do. Haven't you been paying attention? I'm the one saying you have to keep trusting in the blood to the very end to be saved by that blood on the Day of Wrath. That's what non-OSAS is all about.

Yeah, you're saying to keep trusting the blood in your own continued faith. You're trusting in your own works and not what Jesus already completed on the cross.

JLB I think we've hit a dead end. Good luck to you.

 

[JLB]

Yeah, you're saying to keep trusting the blood in your own continued faith. You're trusting in your own works and not what Jesus already completed on the cross.

JLB I think we've hit a dead end. Good luck to you.

What do you believe you need to trust in to be saved?

JLB

 

[DRS81]

What do you believe you need to trust in to be saved?

JLB

I trust his blood that was shed on the cross.

Let's move on man, we've been at it for about a month now.

 

[JLB]

I trust his blood that was shed on the cross.

Let's move on man, we've been at it for about a month now.

No I said your part.

You said what God's part is.

What is what you believe?

 

[DRS81]

Goodbye.

 

[JLB]

Goodbye.

God bless you.

Thanks for sharing.

Please continue to trust and believe.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

For me its been a learning experience, from day 1.

As I sought Him and gave my self over to the things of God, I found that He begin to move upon me and lead me and speak to me.

I also found that when when I ignored Him, or the commands in the scriptures I would find myself in trouble.

Through the years my trust and confidence has grown in Him, as I discovered how much He loves me through life's experiences that He made a way for me time and time again.

I also found out through being backsliden, that He would let me eat the fruit of my own way, on more than one occasion.

As I matured, I learned to stay close to Him like the proverbial lamb, who has his leg broken by the Sheppard when he keeps going astray, and the Sheppard carries for a season until the leg heals.

Then the lamb learns to stay close to the Sheppard, because he trust's Him.


For the record -

Grace is the power of God that He gives to you that enables you to do what you couldn't do without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Grace.


Grace is not some magic cloud that surrounds us that mysteriously makes all the sins we commit somehow disappear.


JLB

I appreciate your testimony, and think you are beginning to understand OSAS.

Regarding 'the lamb learns to stay close to the Shepherd,' do you equate 'to stay close' with "to abide"?

 

[Gregg]

What do you believe you need to trust in to be saved?

JLB

Rather Whom do you believe in!

. . . in God because of His completed work in and through the LORD Jesus Christ - from His dwelling among us to His sending the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

• What the scripture says is you need to walk in the light as He is in the light, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Yes, He does. But NOT for salvation. For fellowship. Hint: count the number of times John mentions "fellowship" in the first chapter.

\What you are saying is there is no need to walk in the light, because Jesus has forgiven all our sins that we will ever commit.

I've NEVER said that. Stop making up stuff. We need to walk in the light in order to have fellowship, which is the ONLY WAY a believer will grow up spiritually.

• What the scripture says is IF you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

What you say is there is no need to confess your sins, because He has forgiven all your sins you will ever commit.

I've NEVER said that. Salvation forgiveness is DIFFERENT than the day to day need to "clean our feet", per Jn 13. But I wonder if you have any idea what that means.

• What the scripture says, he who does the will of God abides forever.

What you say, is there is no need to do God's will or obey Him, or be led by the Spirit, or learn to practice righteousness, because all your sins that you will ever commit are already forgiven, even the sin of denying the Lord.

Why do you keep repeating what I've already addressed? Please read my posts (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)

Here is the comparison of scripture and your opinion that comes from your doctrine of OSAS.
My belief is we need to practice righteousness in order to be righteous.

There are 2 sides to righteousness. We HAVE Christ's imputed righteousness because of our initial faith in Christ for salvation. But we need to become "holy and blameless" (Eph 1:4, 5:27, Col 1:22)which is experiential righteousness.

Seems all the anti-OSASers have no clue what "positional" means, nor "experiential". As a result, one cannot properly divide the Word of Truth.

If I stumble or miss God, then I ask Him to forgive me of my sin.

Right. In order to maintain fellowship. Not salvation.

He has healed me and delivered me of many sinful habits, and will continue to heal me and forgive and deliver me as I repent and confess these things...
It called growth.
It's growing up into Him and being transformed into His image, having more and more of Christ formed within me.
It's a process.
It's the process of becoming... sons of God.
From a baby to mature sonship.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

This isn't about salvation, or the maintenance of it. It's about growing to spiritual maturity.

The doctrine of OSAS seems to cut out the need for any of this.
JLB

If you'd only actually read my posts,(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)