Lukewarm believers and faith

[RandyK]

Only by His resurrection from the dead can Jesus Christ offer mercy to His enemies that slew Him, and sprinkle the obedient with His precious blood of the Spirit.

Obviously, if Jesus died and stayed dead there would be no mercy to be preached to anybody. He would be dead. That is purely the mechanics of delivering the message of Salvation to others. He has to rise before the message is preached.

But you are confusing this with a supposed "sprinkling" event, as if the "sprinkling of his blood" is simultaneous with his resurrectioin from the dead. We are not told that. *You* are telling us that!

We are told that Jesus' death was a different kind of atonement than the slaying of bulls and lambs under the Old Covenant, and different from the sprinkling of their blood upon the altar. You tend to confuse these 2 separate covenants, even though one was symbolic of the other.

Jesus' blood was his own blood shed on the cross, and it was "sprinkled" before God in the event of his death, and not later, in his resurrection. Sure, he had to be raised from the dead before preaching the atonement, but the atonement was actually made on the cross. The Bible tells us that. You don't tell us that. You say it doesn't tell us that.

The blood of Christ signifies his death--not his resurrection. And his blood is what brought our atonement. The Bible tells us that. You tell us it doesn't tell us that.

We are told that it's the death of Christ that yields our inheritance...immediately, and not later. The Bible tells us that. You tell us the Bible does not tell us that.

Who should we believe: you or the Bible?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Believing in Jesus's death on the cross and the work that he did there as necessary for salvation is not my "personal teaching," it is the teaching of Scripture.

So you say. We must always remain humble and not think every word that proceeds out of our mouth, is the mouth of God.

Afterall, I read God saying we must believe in His resurrection to be saved. I don't read any Scripture saying we believe in His death unto salvation.

What you mean to say according to your past words, is that everyone must believe in your teaching on the work of Jesus' death on the cross. That's proselytization by one's own doctrine, not winning souls to Christ by preaching His doctrine of Scripture.

And if making the atonement by shedding of blood alone, is that work you teach finsihed on the cross, then that is a false teaching of another kind of atonement than God's:

His atonement sacrifice is made by shedding and sprinkling of blood. Not by shedding alone as the heathen do, nor by sprinkling alone, which is not possible after the sacrifice is killed.

If a person only has to believe that he was raised again, it could be that he was just one of three criminals executed and that God decided to raise him from the dead. He could have been just another sinful human whose death would have been meaningless for redeeming us from sin.

Nonsensical. I've never heard nor even concieved anyone believing in His resurrection, who did not believe He died first.

Non squitur.

RBDERRICK said:
No man must believe Jesus Christ's resurrection and His work on the cross, else ye cannot be saved.


This is flat out heresy, a denial of the gospel.

You see what I mean? You're not preaching faith in His death, but faith in your teaching of His work on the cross.

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

No one is arguing against the blood of Jesus Christ. The argument is whether He sprinkles and buys us by His natural blood shed on the cross, or by the eternal blood of His Spirit sprinkled from on high.

Since we are commanded by Jesus to drink His blood, then it would be contrary to OT and NT law to do so, if He speaks of His natural blood as a man in the flesh.

And since the blood of Jesus Christ that makes atonement for our sins, is the blood of the NT, then of course it is the eternal blood of His resurrection, that He spoke of while yet in the flesh.

Only the carnal minded disciples believed, and still believe, He is speaking of His natural blood shed, as a man in the flesh.

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (ESV)

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He is the propitiation of sins now. He is risen from the dead now. His old natural blood shed into the ground, is not His spiritual blood now. Neither is His old flesh body, His resurrected body now. The shape and likeness are the same, not the flesh and the blood.

To believe the blood of Jesus Christ in the flesh, is the same blood of the resurrection man Christ Jesus, one must believe one of two things:

His blood was eternally pure in the flesh. Which denies Jesus Christ is come in the flesh of man, but in some other kind of supernatural flesh and blood. That lie has been around a while.

Or, one must believe His blood of the resurrection, is the same natural blood of Jesus Christ in the flesh. I don't believe I've heard that one yet.

Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (ESV)

Since He rose again for our justification, then His blood sprinkled for justification is by His quickening Spirit, which is only by His resurrection after His death.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (ESV)

All men were brought under guilt of His shed blood on the cross. All that repent are brought to mercy with sprinkling by His resurrection.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV)

His blood shed on the cross was not sprinkled, and so no conscience was cleansed by His death alone, but only condemned by killing Him on a cross.

His blood sprinkling by His Spirit sanctifies the soul and purges the conscience of all past sins.

Once again. The argument is about what blood of Jesus Christ sprinkles and purifies and washes away sins, and is drank by obedience to His word.

God's words are written to forestall all errors foreseen by Him. If anyone wants to believe they are atoned for, forgiven, and justified by the His natural blood shed on the cross, then the OT and NT law condemns them for drinking it, either at the cross, or somehow after His resurrection.

That certainly would be a #1 relics search. Beats any burial linen, or wooden splinters from a cross.

You are pitting the cross against the resurrection,

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I'm not the one speaking against the resurrection, as having nothing to do with the atonement made by blood.

Or, do you agree the resurrection is necessary to making the atonement by blood? Otherwise, the cross is pit against the resurrection, and the resurrection is made unnecessary by the cross.

by making his work on the cross meaningless.

Thank you. I'll save this one for any more misrepresentation charges from you.

It isn't either/or, it's both/and. His resurrection was meaningful because his work on the cross was meaningful.

True. Without dying, He could not rise again from the dead. And without dying as a meek lamb for slaughter in obedience to the Father, He could not bring all men under condemnation of His death. And without His resurrection He cannot sprinkle any man that repents and obeys Him.

His resurrection, divorced from his atoning work on the cross, as you are teaching, makes his resurrection meaningless, as I pointed out above.

Nonsensical. How can His necessary resurrection to make the atonement by sprinkling of blood, be divorced from shedding His blood on the cross? There cannot be one without the other.

It's not the same flesh and blood at the cross and at His resurrection, but it's still the same God and man Jesus Christ, shedding His natural blood on a cross, and sprinkling His eternal blood by the Spirit.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is false to claim that compassion on weakness is evil and allowing people to sin.

It is false to claim I preach conpassion is evil.

Jesus came and had compassion on "bruised reeds."

True. He comes to save the lost.

Grace is not permission to sin.

Nor cover from condemnation while sinning.

It's a way to get back to righteousness when we lived a life of sin,

True. Reproof by the Spirit of grace unto godly sorrow and repentance unto salvation.

and for those who have been reborn but have failed in some way.

I don't disagree some children of disobedience have been born again. But God doesn't remember them.

Eze 3:20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

But every born son of God has turned away from disobedience with the world, and all their old sins are not remembered by the Father:

Eze 18:21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Grace is God's love for people who want to get back on the wagon.

True. His mercy is to not yet let the disobedient die in their sins and trespasses, but is longsuffering unto repentance or the grave.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Obviously, if Jesus died and stayed dead there would be no mercy to be preached to anybody. He would be dead. That is purely the mechanics of delivering the message of Salvation to others. He has to rise before the message is preached.

He had to rise again before the Spirit is poured out upon all flesh, and convict all men of the Son's death, and preach from heaven the NT gospel of atonement by repentance.

Jhn 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
The NT gospel of salvation by Jesus Christ is preached by the Spirit sent from heaven, by His resurrection from the dead.

1Pe 1:12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Mechanical preaching of atonement by death on the cross alone, is not by the Spirit that sprinkles the blood of the risen Lamb of God. It digs the dry hole of believing in being atoned for by His natural blood shed into the earth. That blood is gone the way of all flesh and dried up, no matter how deep anyone digs for it.

The Holy Ghost is not sent down, nor is the risen Lamb Jesus Christ sent by the Father, to anyone preaching against His resurrection for making atonement with sprinkling of blood upon them that repent.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

If Jesus is not risen, then any faith in His atonement is vain, since any atonement made by killing the sacrifice alone is only made by men, not by God.

But you are confusing this with a supposed "sprinkling" event,

Supposed? Your unbelief is yours alone.

as if the "sprinkling of his blood" is simultaneous with his resurrectioin from the dead.

The sprinkling of blood is by His resurrection. His quickening Spirit continues to sprinkle His blood upon them that believe in His resurrection, and repent to obey Him.

What was not sprinkled simultaneously with His shedding of blood, is any sort of shed-sprinkling, or sprinkle shedding from the cross upon the unbelievers.

We are told that Jesus' death was a different kind of atonement than the slaying of bulls and lambs under the Old Covenant, and different from the sprinkling of their blood upon the altar.

Exactly. Thank you. The atonement of the Lamb of God is different from that of bulls and goats in two ways: While the blood was both shed and sprinkled, the manner of sprinkling and where it is sprinkled is different.

1. Righteous men shed the blood of animals, and then with clean hands sprinkled the blood upon the altar and people, to make the atonement of the LORD.

With the man Jesus Christ, wicked men shed His blood, but their hands did not get bloody by sprinkling His pooled blood at the cross. It is only the risen Lamb of God Himself that sprinkles His own spiritual blood, by hand of the Spirit.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Even as the circumcision of Christ is not with hands of men, but only by His quick and sure Spirit, so is His blood sprinkled upon the heart, when the foreskin of lust is cut away. The Spirit's blood is sprinkled with His sword of circumcision.

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

2. The sprinkling of blood of bulls and goats is upon the flesh only, not upon the heart.

Therefore, the blood of bulls and goats cannot cleanse the conscince from dead works. Only the eternal purifying blood of the resurrected man Christ Jesus, can be sprinkled by the Spirit upon the soul, and purge the heart within.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Conclusion: The atonement made by blood of bulls and goats is not the same as the atonement made by the Lamb of God, because only the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself sprinkles His spiritual blood upon the people. And only His Spirit can sprinkle His blood upon the soul to cleanse the conscience from old sins and trespasses.

Natural blood cannot do what only the Spirit's blood can do for the conscience, because natural blood cannot be sprinkled on the soul, but only on the body. Nor can natural blood be drank with life well pleasing to the Lord, which is contrary to His Old and New Testament law.

You tend to confuse these 2 separate covenants, even though one was symbolic of the other.

Foreshadowing is not symbolism. God did not 'symbolically' sprinkle His Son's blood at the cross, anymore than they symbolically sprinkle the blood of bulls and goats.

Symbolizing is the go-to cover for unbelief, by turning doctrine and prophecy of God into just more fables of man.

Jesus' blood was his own blood shed on the cross, and it was "sprinkled" before God in the event of his death, and not later, in his resurrection.

No shed-sprinkling, nor sprinkle-shedding unto death in the atonement made by God. Neither the animals nor the Lamb of God sprinkled anyone by being bled out over them.

Sacrifical blood must be shed first unto death, collected by hands, and then sprinkled accordingly, for God to make atonement according to the heavenly pattern given in the OT.

One error always leads to another in the Scriptures of God. Whether it be an atonement made by shedding blood alone, or any atonement made by bleeding out the sacrifice over the altar and the people, to 'sprinkle' them thereby.

Any such doctrine of atonement is not by word of God, and any such faith before Christ is risen, is vain.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The blood of Christ signifies his death--not his resurrection.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The prophecy of Christ is of His own suffering and glory, by His own death and resurrection, not of His death alone. He signified His suffering by natural blood shed on earth, and His glory by sprinkling of blood from heaven.

The prophets were searching into the Scriptures given them by Christ, of how His sacrifice and atonement could possibly be made on earth, by human sacrifice forbidden by law of Christ.

The mystery of the revelation of the Lamb slain from the found of the world, is the slaying of Christ in the flesh by shedding of blood, and the resurrection of Christ in heaven with sprinkling of blood.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The blood of the NT sprinkled by the Spirit upon the souls obedient to God, is not from a cross on earth, but only from the risen Lamb of Gopd speaking from heaven.

And his blood is what brought our atonement.

The blood that buys us is sprinkled from heaven by His Spirit. If Christ be not risen, then all men remain guilty of His shed blood on earth.

There is no argument against His death, burial, and resurrection, nor His blood. The only argument of Scripture is what blood is sprinkled to make atonement, and when and who drinks it.

Rev 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

No man was, nor is, washed in Jesus' natural blood shed from the cross.

The only hands awash in His blood at the cross were His crucifiers.

Only in Jesus' own spiritual blood risen from the dead, can He wash the soul clean from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
No man was washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on a cross, and of a certain no man is now being washed in any of His natural shed blood.
2Pe 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The Lord buys them that repent, by sprinkling of His blood from above. He does not buy any soul at the cross by His blood shed into the ground.

At the cross He owes all men punishment for shedding His innocent blood. By His resurrection He owns any man sprinkled with His Spirit's blood.

1Co 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The price paid to buy back the souls of men, was His shed blood on earth. His sprinkled blood from heaven buys back soul from lust and sins of the world.

No man is bought and paid for by the Lord from heaven, for killing Him on earth.

We are told that it's the death of Christ that yields our inheritance...immediately, and not later.

Only by the resurrection from the dead unto life, does the doer of righteousness inherit the promises.

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

No man inherits anything eternal from God by their own faith alone, in a Christ and doctrine contrary to His word.

And especially, no man inherits the everlasting kingdom of God by killing His Son illegally.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What you've just said is the opposite of this! You've just said you interpret what Scripture says only the way adversaries of Scripture do,

Adversaries of Scripture preach against any justification by works, making Jesus Christ 'unloving'. Especially His preachers of His righteousness.

that Christian Works are dead.

Christians doing dead works are dead, by the dead works they do.

Faith alone in Christ apart from the works we do, is dead faith alone. It's not faith in Christ Jesus.

Why are you choosing to represent the Dark Side, and not true Christianity?

This is why Justification by Faith is so important, because it covers us even while we're sinners and slip up on

I only respond to the dark side being preached under cover of having faith alone in Christ, while being sinners doing dead works of the dead.

Sinful Christians justifying unrighteousness, sprinkle their words with euphemisms for sinning against Christ. Such as slip ups, and oopsies.

You are representing only the Dark Side's view of "Faith Alone."

Because there is no light side to having faith alone, apart from works we do. Especially not any faith alone that justifies, while doing ungodly slip ups.

True Christianity sees "Faith Alone" as our essential link to Christ, which includes how we live and the works we do.

Which is not linked to Jesus Christ at all, if it includes doing evil oopsies.

Job 28:28And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Those who name Christ, while doing iniquity, unjustly seek to link their faith to Jesus Christ Himself.

Rom 2:23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

I'm supposed to be speaking from somebody else's mind?

We're supposed to be preaching the mind of Christ, that is made known by Scripture.

Preaching our views, is preaching our own minds, not the mind of Christ from Scripture.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

*We,* ie our mind, is to align with the mind of Christ. We do that by *faith!*

Not by preaching our views. Do we need to go back and quote how many times you have preached your view on things? And how many Scriptures I've quoted rejecting your views, as not being the mind of Christ?

 

[RandyK]

Christians doing dead works are dead, by the dead works they do.

What's "dead" is our conversation.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Your whole schtick seems to be to denounce those who have properly used "Faith Alone" as an emphasis upon our need to direct our faith in Christ alone. You've turned it into a "Dark Side" version in which false Christians want to have faith without works.

I've never heard from anyone preaching faith alone, that did not also preach their justifying faith apart from their works, and so their faith alone justifies them, while doing unrighteousness toward God and man.

What is the opposite of true Faith? It is doing things without Faith.

No. James 2 is not rebuking having no faith, but havine faith in Christ, while doing unrighteousness, or not doing good.

That faith in Christ opposes the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, that always does those things pleasing to God, and beneficial to them in need.

Dead faith alone, being without works, is not having no faith. It's having one's own faith to themselves alone, that is dead toward God, while doing unrighteousness and not good.

But you completely mischaracterize this, and falsely accuse Faith Alone as an effort to exclude righteousness.

Only a few believers in justification by faith alone, exclude doing righteousness by their faith.

But all believers in faith alone justification, exclude doing righteousness from their justification.

God only excludes doing unrighteousness from His justification through faith in Jesus Christ.

You completely distort the truth of Faith Alone here. You are centering only on how evil people might want to rationalize Hedonism, libertinism.

And slip ups. Don't forget the oopsies.

RandyK said:
This is why Justification by Faith is so important, because it covers us even while we're sinners and slip up on.

Or, do slip ups euphemistically not count as sinfulness and unrighteousness?

RandyK said:
Christ has, in my view, entrusted his pure righteousness to us who will have a spotty record,
The sinner's standard of righteousness with spotty unrighteousness, is not God's righteousness, which is at all times.

You are focused only on antinomians, who want to use Grace as an excuse for sin, when that is not at all what Faith Alone was ever about!

Grace that covers sin from judgment of God by one's faith alone, while doing unrighteousness against Him, is an excuse and license for sin by their faith alone.

The practical result of works is what God judges, not any doctrinal niceties with same bad results.

Faith Alone is based on True Faith that abides in the vine. You are focused on the "dead branches," apparently to mischaracterize true Christianity.

I don't preach true or false Christianity, because I don't preach Christian religion.

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I only preach the pure religion of Jesus Christ, where the righteous Christians repent to obey the Lord, and the unrighteous Christians do not wholly repent, and continue in disobedient spotty slip ups against the Lord.

You've already said that it was your intention to look at the wrong side of Faith Alone.

It is my purpose to always call it dead according to the Scriptures. And the more I get it preached to me, the more dead it gets.

Maybe you just want to look at the external words, "faith alone," and then draw the conclusion that that is bad theology?

Exactly. Now you have it. Bible rammar alone forbids preaching any faith alone as being good.

When any faith aloner shows any Scripture speaking any good of having faith 'alone', then of course I will accept the correction and preach it too.

Until then, the only Scripture ever speaking of faith that is 'alone', being without works, is judged dead to God and man.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That is surface level judgment--something Jesus warned us not to do.

Righteous judgment is according to what is written. Digging deeper than what is written, to change what is written into something else and the opposite of what is written, is ditch-digging that Scripture warns against doing.

Mat 15:14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

2 Peter 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Digging deeper into the text, that changes the words on paper, is not discerning the deep things of God, but is only diving into the depths of Satan.

I will say it again, though you're on record as wanting to ignore it. Others should know it. Faith Alone proscribes the use of Works without Faith as the equation for living right before God.

This is true. The error is proscribing any works, in order to be justified by their faith alone.

Shame on you for focusing on that!

Quit preaching it.

RandyK said:
This is why Justification by Faith is so important, because it covers us even while we're sinners and slip up on.

A simple retraction will do. Or, any Scripture that speaks of having faith alone, as being any good.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If we are to do good works, shouldn't they be done by "Faith Alone?" Or, are you advocating for good works that are done apart from faith in Christ?

Faith alone is not faith in Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ is never alone, but is always doing the will of the Father.

Faith alone apart from works is the delusion of having faith within alone, apart from outward works.

Faith alone is dead in sins and trespasses. Faith in Jesus Christ alone, as the only true Christ of God, is life and righteousness.

Righteouse works done through the faith of Jesus Christ, are not the unrighteous works done through one's own faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

God has promised to Himself to accomplish certain things in creation, which cannot fail. He has also created free agents, angels and men, who have parameters within which they can make real decisions with real consequences. I'm not sure we've disagreed on any of this?

No disagreement. What God has predestined to come to pass is not the argument. The argument is against the Calvinist predestinatioin of who will partake of everlasting life or condemnation.

The only Person predestined what and when and how to do anything, is Jesus Christ the Word and Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[RBDERRICK]

He plans things, like X number of people for His Kingdom. And He sticks with that--His word cannot fail.

That being said, giving people freedom allows them to produce X+Y number of people, Y being those God didn't plan for. They are predicted to respond like the bad angels did.

False. Lucifer with all angels was created perfect in all His ways, to do the will of God, and all men are created in His image to do His will.

There is no set number God predestinates to do His will vs rebel against Him.

I've never met anyone preaching God purposely creates some angels and men to be damned, that ever included themselves in that bad number. They always include themselves to be numbered with the righteous.

And interestingly enough, they always number themselves with the obedient sons of God, while disobeying Him too.

Call me inconsistent, but don't call me dishonest. Just trying to do my best with what I see out there!

No. You're being perfectly honest. You preach your own views based upon your own faith alone. You don't preach the Bible from the Bible.

Certainly not! But God did give angels and people a choice. It's just that with people, who live on earth, there are limited number of vacancies that I call X vacancies. Y people are embarassed by it, hostile towards it, and vomit it out.

So is God sick of it, and spues it out. God does not abide by any numbers in heaven or hell, according to the limitations made by vain men acting as gods, who limit by decree what the true God can and can't do.

Gen {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The promise is seductive because it's true.

God does know men created in His image, will become as gods in the flesh on earth, who presume to make decrees by their own faith alone. The lie of the promise is that disobedient men continue as gods forever. All the preaching of personal views for doctrinal and prophetic decrees end in the grave, along with their vain godhood.

This is a difficult subject. Thanks for your patience....

All the simplicity of Christ in Scripture, is made difficult and confusing by preaching one's own views on the Bible, rather than teaching the Bible itself.

1 Cor{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So it's not really a disagreement about the Bible, but about your judgmentalism?

Pointing out someone talking about their views, and not quoted Scripture from the Bible, is pointing out someone is teaching their own views, not the Bible.

A teacher of their own views about the Bible, is not teaching the Bible itself.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1Ti 1:7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

People teaching their own views, rather than quoting and teaching the Bible, are only playing at being a Bible teacher.

They teach their own views by their own faith alone, instead of the doctrine of Jesus Christ written in and quoted from the Bible.

One might as well be hearing drinkers at a bar, who are talking about their own views of God and life.

It is pure "judgmentalism" to say that teaching the Bible is intended to mislead people into "getting around the Bible!"

If you were teaching the Bible, you would be quoting the Bible and teaching that, rather than talking about all your own personal views about the faith of God written in the Bible.

I think Free did a perfectly good job exposing your poor interpretation of "Salvation by faith in Jesus' Resurrection?"

Haven't seen it yet. But so long as it's not about any salvation by faith alone in Jesus' resurrection, then it's a good start.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, and as I've told you "Faith Alone" is speaking not of just accepting a doctrine, but much more, accepting Christ's proposition that we "do something"--that we obey him.

Not while disobeying Him. God's obedience and righteousness is at all times, not just when some believer naming His name finds it acceptable to do so, and at other times accepting sin and spot from the devil.

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

RandyK said:
Christ has, in my view, entrusted his pure righteousness to us who will have a spotty record,

We see here how believing in your own view about things of God, is only what is acceptable to you. And so you preach your own spotty obedience and righteousness, as being acceptable to God.

Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

And even worse, it appears that by the power of your own faith alone, God also accept your own view and faith about spottily obeying Him and doing His righteousness only some of the time.

The whole error of the doctrine of justification by one's own faith alone in Christ, is that the true Christ of God, Jesus Christ, does not have to accept our own view about obedience and righteousness, which we declare by our own faith alone, and not by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ from Scripture.

1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[RandyK]

Not while disobeying Him. God's obedience and righteousness is at all times, not just when some believer naming His name finds it acceptable to do so, and at other times accepting sin and spot from the devil.

I'm not sure if you're "preaching to the choir" or just arguing?

 

[RandyK]

Haven't seen it yet. But so long as it's not about any salvation by faith alone in Jesus' resurrection, then it's a good start.

If you aren't reading any rebuttals to your position, then there never was any sense in arguing "Faith Alone."

 

[RandyK]

False. Lucifer with all angels was created perfect in all His ways, to do the will of God, and all men are created in His image to do His will.

There is no set number God predestinates to do His will vs rebel against Him.

I've never met anyone preaching God purposely creates some angels and men to be damned, that ever included themselves in that bad number. They always include themselves to be numbered with the righteous.

Never said that.

 

[RandyK]

I've never heard from anyone preaching faith alone, that did not also preach their justifying faith apart from their works, and so their faith alone justifies them, while doing unrighteousness toward God and man.

Everybody who preaches "Faith Alone" preaches that Christ is our exclusive atonement such that we must only have faith in what he did, and not in the works we do. There is a difference between Works that Justify and Works that are done by faith in Christ. The Works that we do do not Justify us--we do not self-atone. The Works that we do validate our being Justified by the atonement of Christ.

No. James 2 is not rebuking having no faith, but havine faith in Christ, while doing unrighteousness, or not doing good.

I can't argue with you when you can't read anything properly.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, and as I've told you "Faith Alone" is speaking not of just accepting a doctrine,

The doctrine of justification by faith alone, while disobeying Him, is all that disobedient believers trust in to resurrect themselves unto life.

but much more, accepting Christ's proposition that we "do something"--that we obey him.

Which has nothing to do with being justified by faith alone, while disobeying Him.

All works are doctrinally forbidden to be judged for one's justification or condemnation. The Father will go ahead and jhudge them by our works anyway. Faith and doctrine alone notwithstanding.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If being justified required works, then that isn't good news at all and no different from any other religion.

It certainly isn't any good news for workers of iniquity. Justification by faith alone apart from our works, is no different than any other hypocrite religion on earth.

One's faith and religion is only as good as what we are doing at the time.