Lukewarm believers and faith

[RandyK]

Thanks for the Scriptural challenge. I think it's the only time you have done so, since you first offered a Scripture for choosing to accept Jesus Christ.

Nonsense. I always bring receipts--you just don't acknowledge them.

I cannot engage with you on "justification" matters because you seem to confuse the difference between Redemptive Justification and the general concept of justification. I've explained it before, but you don't acknowledge the argument.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith of sin?" What is that?

Faith to sin. Beleiving in sinning. Every person created in the image of God has faith to do one thing or another, whether good or evil. The brute beasts of the field do nothing by faith, but only by natural drive and instinct.

The faith to continue sinning in life, is the faith of unrighteous sinners. The faith to do righteousness in life, is the faith of Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Anyone believing from the heart, that they certainly will sin again, has their faith in doing so. Anyone believing from the heart they will always do righteousness, has the faith of Jesus to do so.

Faith to continue doing unrighteousness in life, is taught by the lying unbelief that no man can doing God's righteousness at all times, and be righteous as He:

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

The faith of Jesus Christ toward God is to do His righteousness. The faith of sinful man toward God, is to do spotty righteousness at best.

"Belief in sinning unto death?" What is that?

Faith to continue sinning unto death. This is the faith of them that do not believe in sinning not unto the end. Their faith is unbelief toward God's righteousness by Christ Jesus.

"Chopping away at the old man of lust?" What is that?

Man's own gradual sanctification and circumcision with dull hands of their own. It's not the quick, sure, and powerful circumcision and sanctification by the Spirit of Christ:

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

'Progressive' sanctification by gradual repentance is with hands of sinful men. It's unsanctification and uncircumsion to God. Even as man's own spotty righteousness is unrighteousness to the Lord Jesus Christ the righteous.

God's repentance, sanctification, and circumcision is wholly complete and at once. Even as God's righteousness is at all times.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

"Grace to cover sin is the old license to sin?" How is that?

If grace only covers sinning, rather than stops the sinning, it's a license to sin by man's grace through his faith alone.

The grace of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, stops the sinning.

Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God's grace is help to endure temptation and sin not. His grace is not a cover for justifying the soul through faith alone.

"Justification for sinning?" Who is doing that?

Anyone believing in being justified while sinning, by their faith alone in Christ.

"License to do evil while wanting to do good?" Who is doing that?

Anyone desiring to good, but does it not, and believing in being justified while sinning, by their faith alone in Christ.

"Redeemed from sins by the grave?" What is that?

Some believe that only in the next life, can anyone be born again with all new things now of God. They either reject whole repentance as necessary, or they believe in a purgatory repentance from the grave.

"Unbelief in doing God's righteousness?" Who is doing that?

Those who do not believe in doing God's righteousness, which is all the time.

They only believe in doing their own spotty righteousness, which is unrighteousness toward God. It's by the sinner's own spotty repentance.

"Walking worthy of His just terror of judgment?" What does that mean?

Any man walking in darkness of lust and unrighteousness, is worthy of the just judgment of God, that judges us by our deeds.

Knowing the terror of the Lord's righteous judgment without respect of persons, we therefore persuade men to repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, and not only gradually at our own pace and good time.

You seem to condemn people for not using your strange terminology? I don't even know people who use your terminology?

It's called using the words of Scripture, to teach Scripture.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You seem to want to undo the atonement Christ made for us on the cross.

We don't undo what is not done. I reject your false atonement made by Jesus Christ, before His resurrection.

The only atonement made by God before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, was that of blood of bulls and goats slain and sprinkled by the priests of God.

Nobody is talking about "death alone" but you.

You are talking about an atonement made by His death alone.

You stop preaching an atonement made by Jesus' death, before His resurrection, and I'll stop calling it an atonement made by killing the sactifice alone.

We are saved by our own faith--not the faith of Jesus Christ.

Thank you. You preach your own faith alone, not the faith of Jesus Christ.

I only preach the faith of Jesus Christ, and not my own alone.

The faith of Jesus Christ is to do His righteousness, which is without spot. The faith of man alone is to do our own righteousness, which is spotty at best.

Our own faith is not "faith alone" in the sense that faith has no object.

Scriptural faith alone, is being without works.

Having an object of faith, without works, is idolatry.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I preach *our faith* and not *Christ's faith.*

As I said. It's your own faith and that of others with you.

Not the faith of Jesus Christ, by which He and His saints do His righteousness at all times.

"Faith Alone" does not mean "Faith Alone apart from Christ." It means "Faith that is directed to Christ alone."

Faith directed at Jesus Christ, while doing unrighteousness, is naming His name and not departing from iniquity.

Since you wish to ignore this, you can argue against your false "Faith" all you want. But you won't be proving a thing to those who identify "Faith Alone" as "Faith exclusively in Christ."

Faith directed at any Christ that justifies the soul while doing unrighteousness, is exclusively in another Christ, not Jesus Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those who claim to live in Christ while yet admitting they are sinners are not choosing to live in sin when they admit being sinners!

So, the devil makes you do it, not you. Or, maybe it's your sinful body's fault. Or, it's God fault for making you that way...

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are arguing the means of redemption by misapplying the Law of Moses to NT atonement.

There is no NT atonement made under law of Moses, before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And you are redefining NT atonement as "just the resurrection."

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Lev 17:14For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Mat 26:28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The NT blood of Jesus Christ is drank after His resurrection, not before.

The death of the parent means the inheritance of the heirs becomes immediately available--not later, when a supposed "sprinkling event" takes place.

Neither God nor Jesus Christ was the father of anyone crucifying Him to death. Nor is He the Father of anyone crucifying Him to themselves today.

The atonement made by Jesus Christ is now sprinkled for any man that repents for His name's sake. Individually and one at a time written in the Lamb's book of life, with blood and finger of the Spirit.

Lev 16:14And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

Your terminology mixes up Old Testament and New Testament.

The only testament of God before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, is the old testament of God by law of Moses.

1 Cor 15:2For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The NT gospel of Jesus Christ is His death, burial, and resurrection, not His death alone before His burial and resurrection.

 

[RBDERRICK]

In reality, NT atonement is not a 2 step process of shedding blood and then sprinkling later.

The Lord God's atonement is made by shedding and sprinkling the blood.

The sacrifice killed without sprinkling the blood, is heathen sacrifice to devils.

Lev 17:5To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.

Lev 17:6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Lev 17:7And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Rather, it is the blood of Christ that terminates the Old Covenant

True. The OT ended with the death of Jesus Christ. The NT begins with His resurrection.

For three days the earth was void of any covnenant faith with the God of Israel.

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

All people on earth were concluded in unbelief at the cross, and all sinners on earth are judged guilty of Jesus' shed blood.

Only with His resurrection from the dead, could the risen Lord Jesus command repentance with mercy for His death.

 

[RandyK]

The Lord God's atonement is made by shedding and sprinkling the blood.

"Shedding and sprinkling the blood" are obviously figures of speech, referring to Christ's death on the cross. The OT imagery was purely *symbolic!*

True. The OT ended with the death of Jesus Christ. The NT begins with His resurrection.

No, the NT ended with Christ's death--not with his Resurrection. I've already shown you that. It was his blood that redeemed us. It was his death that provided for our inheritance. It was the rent veil that ended the OT system completely, even though Israel continued to go through their perfunctory Temple performances.

For three days the earth was void of any covnenant faith with the God of Israel.

Where do you find any biblical evidence that the earth was "void of any covenant?" I'm assuming you speak of Christ being dead for those 3 days?

If he was preaching to "spirits in prison," what was he preaching to them--a non-covenant? What was the basis of God's judgment during the time Christ was dead?

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

All people on earth were concluded in unbelief at the cross, and all sinners on earth are judged guilty of Jesus' shed blood.

Only with His resurrection from the dead, could the risen Lord Jesus command repentance with mercy for His death.

No, God can command repentance in Jesus' name even while Jesus is dead. God's commands did not end with Jesus' death!

 

[RBDERRICK]

There is a difference between Works that Justify and Works that are done by faith in Christ.

The works done through Jesus Christ are the works that justify us with God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You unfortunately conflate the definition of "Faith Alone" with some of the problems some people have with it. For example, you obviously have a problem with "Faith Alone" but are not properly defining it as it really is.

Scripture defines any faith alone, apart from works, is dead.

Any justification by faith alone, apart from works, is a lie to decieve the unrighteous naming Christ.

And yet you continue to double down on your examples of abuses of those who claim "Faith Alone" and pursue an antinomian existence. But this is not the definition of "Faith Alone." You continue to ignore that.

You preach the same jsutification of faith alone apart from works, the same as all others preaching it.

Once justification is by faith alone, while doing iniquity, it becomes the lie of being justified by faith alone, while doing iniquity.

You can distance yourself once for all from that lie, but answering the question put to you several times:

Are you justifieed by your faith alone, including when doing unrighteousness?

"Faith Alone" does not preclude the work of repentance that is done when we turn to faith in Christ.

It does if faith alone justifies the soul, when doing iniquity.

Do you believe your soul is dead to God, the same as all souls that sin? Or do you believe your faith alone keeps you alive to God, when sinning with the world?

It is your insistence that the Resurrection is somehow superior to Christ's Death on the Cross that confuses this further.

It's your insistence on misrepresenting teaching of Scripture.

We are told repeatedly that Christ won our redemption *at the cross* and *by his blood.*

Only by those preaching their own views by their own faith alone. Give Scripture where Jesus Christ won our redemption at the cross before his resurrection, by His shed blood alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Shedding and sprinkling the blood" are obviously figures of speech, referring to Christ's death on the cross. The OT imagery was purely *symbolic!*

Neither shedding His blood, nor sprinkling is a figure of speech.

You've just invalidated all your views about Jesus' atonement. Including your unbelief in the spiritual things of God.

Making symbolism out of Scripture, turns the Bible into just another fable of men.

Where do you find any biblical evidence that the earth was "void of any covenant?"

By the Scriptures given.

I'm assuming you speak of Christ being dead for those 3 days?

Yes. The OT was disannulled by the death of Jesus Christ, and the NT is brought in by His resurrection.

For three days in between, no Jew nor Gentile believed Jesus was the Son of God, nor that He would rise again.

If he was preaching to "spirits in prison," what was he preaching to them--a non-covenant?

He was preaching His NT to come by His resurrection from the dead, when He led captivity captive to the altar of His throneroom in heaven.

What was the basis of God's judgment during the time Christ was dead?

That all men who sin are judged guilty of His innocent shed blood.

No, God can command repentance in Jesus' name even while Jesus is dead.

No. No man on earth is commanded anything in Jesus' name, while His body remained in the grave. None on earth believed in His name, nor in His resurrection from the dead.

God's commands did not end with Jesus' death!

The commands of the OT did. The new commandment of the NT is for all men everywhere to repent in Jesus' name. No longer the Jew only but also the Gentile.

 

[RandyK]

Scripture defines any faith alone, apart from works, is dead.

No, you see this has been your whole problem all along--the very reason we seem to go on and on about this. You are using a term that is the product of Christian discussions in history, using their own terms in conjunction with biblical truths. "Faith Alone" is not a theology spelled out in Scriptures, though it is very much in the Bible in principle.

So this has to be explained outside of the Bible to properly present what "Faith Alone" means to those whose theology it is. "Faith Alone" actually means to discount any Works we may do to Self-Atone, or to Justify ourselves for Eternal Life.

Since Christ alone did the work of atonement, we cannot say that any of our Works accomplish that in his place! I know you would agree--you just use the term "Faith Alone" in a wrong way.

You are trying to fit the exact *words* "Faith Alone" into the Bible to disprove the theology, but since the words are not used to express a particular theology, that won't work! As is always said, "words mean what the user of those words mean to them!" "Faith Alone" can only be explained in terms of how those who hold to that theology use those words!

Once justification is by faith alone, while doing iniquity, it becomes the lie of being justified by faith alone, while doing iniquity.

"Faith Alone" has never been used to exclude Christian Works of righteousness! You are not using the theology properly!

Are you justifieed by your faith alone, including when doing unrighteousness?

You are not using the words as they are used in the "Faith Alone" theology. To use "justification" has a general sense of validating your faith by adding to that faith good works. Nobody would dispute this!

But "Justification" also has a technical application, which rejects independent Works that the Christian might hope to do to Self-Justify. This sense of "Justification" is by faith alone in Christ because only Christ could Justify us in this sense. We are speaking of Redemptive Justification--not validating our faith with good works. It is perfectly acceptable, to the "Faith Alone" advocate, to validate your faith with good works.

I've shared this to you many times now. So you can just go on asking the same questions and making the same points. I will always have the same answers.

Your problem is the use of the terms, or the language problem. You are conflating one meaning of "justification" with "Redemptive Justification."

You also have a problem with defining "sinner." One meaning of "sinner" would refer to one who is committed to living a sinful lifestyle. Another different meaning of "sinner" would be one who has a Sin Nature, which includes all men, including Christians.

You conflate these two contexts, making it difficult for you to describe Christians as "sinners." You shouldn't have a problem with this if you separate these diverse meanings of "sinner."

 

[RandyK]

Neither shedding His blood, nor sprinkling is a figure of speech.

And this is your whole problem, that you don't know how to translate OT figures into NT realities. Hebrews 8 makes it very clear. The OT rituals were actually designed to speak of spiritual realities that were quite different from their earthly counterparts. You conflate the "heavenly" with the "earhtly," and get them confused.

You've just invalidated all your views about Jesus' atonement. Including your unbelief in the spiritual things of God.

Making symbolism out of Scripture, turns the Bible into just another fable of men.

I didn't at all say that *all Scripture* is symbolic. In reality, I was saying that *Scripture itself* defines NT fulfillment as havinag been symbolized previously by OT images, rituals, and Temple worship. See Hebrews 8.

Hebrews 8.1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

So unless you recognize this "symbolic use" or "figurative use" of OT images, then it is *you* who are being non-Scriptural!

Yes. The OT was disannulled by the death of Jesus Christ, and the NT is brought in by His resurrection.

You have not proven that at all!

For three days in between, no Jew nor Gentile believed Jesus was the Son of God, nor that He would rise again.

That is your proof that the New Covenant was not yet in effect? You're actually trying to prove that when Jesus said "It is finished" he was lying? Are you saying his blood was worthless to forgive, that it couldn't immediately take effect?

No. No man on earth is commanded anything in Jesus' name, while His body remained in the grave. None on earth believed in His name, nor in His resurrection from the dead.

The commands of the OT did. The new commandment of the NT is for all men everywhere to repent in Jesus' name. No longer the Jew only but also the Gentile.

Do you just say anything that comes into your head? Or, do you really build your beliefs upon the Bible? You seem to want to concoct things to show your ingenuity and originality. But all you're doing is committing heresy!

Yes, Jesus' Disciples were discouraged after he died. But the command to believe in him still existed, and this command transcended the Old Covenant of Law. The *veil had been torn!* You completely ignore this, and that's heresy.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You said that in response to this: "Adding works to justification is a false gospel."

So, you state in the quote above: "I have never taught adding 'works to justification'."

But, you just stated this in post #420, 45 minutes ago: "Justification by faith alone apart from our works, is no different than any other hypocrite religion on earth."

That is such an obvious contradiction, there is no point in even trying to address your statements. It's like you don't even know what you're saying from one post to the next, or there is a serious gap in your understanding and you refuse correction.

And, you have also taught justification by works elsewhere:

"Scripture is all about keeping the law of God, including being justified by works of faith" and "By James 2, I was refuting justification by faith alone, apart from any works we do." HERE

"We are justified by good works sprinkled with His blood." HERE

"Only by doing His works of faith are we justified with Him.

Seeking to be justified by faith alone, apart from doing good, is only in the imagination of man." HERE

How about this topic you started which was dedicated to teaching justification by works: The problem with not being justified by our works

I could go on and on with examples.

There are at least three main problems. First, you don't understand the biblical definitions of justification. Second, you use biblical terms in ways the Bible doesn't use them, which is incredibly confusing and, I suspect, is what continually leads you to misunderstand what others are saying. Understanding biblical terms and how the Bible uses them is essential to understanding what the Bible says and having correct doctrine. Three, you don't seem to have actually studied what "faith alone" means, and seem intent on not listening to what others here are telling you it means. That all makes for very poor discussion.

Adding works to our faith to ensure our election and justification with God, is not adding works to our justification.

The saints are justified by works of faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are conflating and confusing Validation with Justification. "Justification" has employed a technical meaning which you are conflating with a non-technical meaning of the word "justification."

You can come up with technical and non-technical terms. Christ says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone.

"Justification,"in the technical sense, refers to what Jesus did for us on the cross--something we cannot do for ourselves.

What Jesus did for the Father on the cross, was submit to sinful hands wiithout defence.

What was done to Jesus on the cross, was done by sinful men.

When I refer to "Validation," I'm referring to authenticating our Faith with Works that accompany Faith.

So long as validation and authenticating is separate from justification with God, it is preaching works of faith to please men, not God.

Gentuine Faith produces repentance, works done in Christ, and conformity to the object of our Faith, which is Christ himself. Inauthentic Faith is not validated by the characteristics necessary to authenticate that Faith.

We must validate our Faith with Works. But Justification comes by the work of Christ alone in providing an atonement for our sins *at the cross.* "Faith Alone" is the equation we use for identifying Christ as our exclusive source of Justification, as opposed to any effort to self-atone or to justify ourselves by our own works.

Pretty speech for preaching justification by faith alone, while doing works of unrighteousness.

Are you justified by your faith alone, when you are doing iniquity? Is you soul alive to God by your faith alone, and not dead when sinning against Him?

 

[Free]

Adding works to our faith to ensure our election and justification with God, is not adding works to our justification.

Yes, it is.

The saints are justified by works of faith in Jesus Christ.

This is a false gospel.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You've lost all credibility. Salvation is a Gift! We do *not* earn our Resurrection as a reward for our Works!

Collosians{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Again, you conflate different meanings of a word. A "reward" can be a trophy that is earned, but in the context of Salvation, Salvation itself is *not* earned.

In context of inheriting resurrection unto life, it is.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, it is.

No, it is not.

This is a false gospel.

To you sinners, not to saints.

 

[Free]

No, it is not.

Yes, it is. If one has to do works to ensure their justification, then their justification is incomplete and relies on their works. That is adding works.

Once again, righteous works are evidence of having been justified; they do not justify.

To you sinners, not to saints.

Do not call anyone a sinner and imply they are not a saint. That is in violation of the ToS.

What you are teaching is a false gospel that requires works for justification.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is at the parents' death that the heirs receive their inheritance.

Neither the Father nor the Son was parent to them crucifying Him, nor is parent to them crufiying Him to themselves today.

And our inheritance of Eternal Life came when Jesus died. That is when we were redeemed--not at his resurrection.

No man is born again before His resurrection.

Gal 4.2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Adoption and election are by His resurrection from the dead, not before.

All you're saying is a truism, that the one who died is the one who rose from the dead. Nobody is questioning that.

What is being denounced is any need of His resurrection from the dead, in order to be redeemed and born again.

But did Christ's death achieve our Salvation? Yes.

No. His death achieved our condemnation.

What you're trying to do is define the specific Work that Christ did to atone for our Sin.

The work Christ does to make atonement by sprinkling the blood of His Spirit.

His death was the means to the end of resurrectioin from the dead.

It was his *Work on the Cross* that brought our Salvation. It was not any supposed Work of Resurrection, if it can even be called that?, that brought about our Salvation.

Only beleiving in His work on the cross, without repentance unto salvation, is dead.

Especially when a teaching about His work is personal views alone.

You are a unfortunately pursuing a confusion of what Christ's death meant, which was a suffering for others. It was his suffering the sins of men that brought about our forgiveness--not his resurrection!

The Scripture commanding all men everywhere to repent, is after His resurrection from the dead.